PokerGrinder
PokerGrinder
Joined: Apr 30, 2015
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September 30th, 2015 at 1:17:30 PM permalink
I wasn't really sure which section to put this thread in, I played Video Poker with my free play so I guess it fits into this area.

My question is when it comes to free play, is video poker the best method to realize as much value out of it? On occasion I will find a slot machine that seems intriguing and play max bets until the free play is gone trying to hit "a big one". I know this is not the best method to get the most value but it is fun sometimes.

Next question is what is my expected value? I had $35 in free play from a new casino card sign up, easily the highest from one casino, on one visit that I have ever received without previously playing there. I clearly got lucky because I hit quad 4's on JoB for a total win of $63.75 on the free play, but even without the quads the other $33.75 of free play I played netted $32.50 which seems a touch high. The machine paytable was not good. Full house paid 7 and flush paid 5 per credit bet. So math guys what was my expected value?
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. Amarillo Slim Preston
Avincow
Avincow
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September 30th, 2015 at 4:48:05 PM permalink
Multiply the return of the game by the amount of free play for expected value. For 9/6 JOB, you do $35*.995 = $34.83. I don't know the return for 7/5 job offhand, probably < 97%. Why were you playing that?
PokerGrinder
PokerGrinder
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October 1st, 2015 at 1:12:08 AM permalink
Quote: Avincow

Multiply the return of the game by the amount of free play for expected value. For 9/6 JOB, you do $35*.995 = $34.83. I don't know the return for 7/5 job offhand, probably < 97%. Why were you playing that?


Small casino, only 2 game kings in the casino. Not much option.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. Amarillo Slim Preston
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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October 1st, 2015 at 3:38:28 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

I wasn't really sure which section to put this thread in, I played Video Poker with my free play so I guess it fits into this area.

My question is when it comes to free play, is video poker the best method to realize as much value out of it? On occasion I will find a slot machine that seems intriguing and play max bets until the free play is gone trying to hit "a big one". I know this is not the best method to get the most value but it is fun sometimes.

Next question is what is my expected value? I had $35 in free play from a new casino card sign up, easily the highest from one casino, on one visit that I have ever received without previously playing there. I clearly got lucky because I hit quad 4's on JoB for a total win of $63.75 on the free play, but even without the quads the other $33.75 of free play I played netted $32.50 which seems a touch high. The machine paytable was not good. Full house paid 7 and flush paid 5 per credit bet. So math guys what was my expected value?

Sure this is a great place to ask questions like this. Many will jump in and answer this question to show they are good at this. But you used the term "math guys". That's way way underneath the "math guys" ability. It's like me asking you what's 1+1 because you're a "math guy".

This VP question is so simple that you really should be asking how to get the answer, not what's the answer.

Making it easy: Get a program that tells you the payback of VP. Free on WOO. (7/5 Jacks or better ?) Then use that to calculate your Expected loss. On $35 coin in that's a very small number. It's a very easy task that you should learn. Any non math person can do it, it's very simple.

It's - about 1% per each coin less on the full house and flush payable. 9/6 = 99.54 7/5 is 3 coins less. Minus approx 1% per coin given. - about 3%. 35 coin in -about 3%.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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October 1st, 2015 at 4:29:36 AM permalink
Since I'm not a math guy I can give you better answers. But first a question: did you have to use the free play on a machine?

If a machine was your only option then yes 7/5;Jacks was most likely your best option because of a combination of the pay table and the variance. You should have a winning hand at least one third of the time on Jacks but a win could be breaking even.

If the free play was good at tables, say 7 $5 chips there are more questions:

Must the chips be used for even money bets or could they be used for any bet? Are the chips good till they lose or chips you can only use once? These factors will influence how to bet the chips.

It's not just the expected return -- it's also the utility.

Don't get wrapped up only in the expected return.
Romes
Romes
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October 1st, 2015 at 7:16:44 AM permalink
Most everyone covered your answer, but I didn't 'exactly' see what I wanted so I'll throw it in as well...

Your Expected Return (ER) is the amount of your free play times the house edge. WOO has free VP calculators that will tell you the HE %, for ANY VP game/pay table, by just plugging in the paytable.

http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/calculator/

Assuming all other payouts are "normal" but 7/5 for FH/Flush, it shows the return to be 96%, or about a 4% house edge. A quick "trick" that's "generally close" off hand is for every 1 less than 9/6, take a percent away from the HE. This will get you "close" to the actual without having to pull the web pages up on your phone, etc...

I.E.
9/6 is 99.54... if we take one away either way (9/5 or 8/6) take 1% off, so 98.5%... if we go down to 8/5 take 1% off, so 97.5%... if we go down to 7/5 take 1% off, so 96.5%.

You can see this is pretty close to the actual percentages:
9/6 = 99.54
9/5 or 8/6 = 98.5
8/5 = 97.3
7/5 = 96.2

Next, I want to discuss how VP is technically NOT the best mathematical play for free play. Not only did Alan cover something important (can you get free play chips that play until you lose) but assuming you just get table tickets ($5 each) to use once on 7 different hands, you're much better off playing something that has a higher expected return that 7/5 JoB (96.2%). Anything that has lower than a 4% house edge is a better game, such as pass/don't pass in craps (~1.4%). The best is whatever the lowest house edge table game they offer... which is usually blackjack. At even a POOR game of blackjack the house edge is usually about .66%. This is SIX TIMES BETTER than your 7/5 video poker.

EV($35 on 7/5 VP), or I should say Expected Return (ER) = 35*(.962) = $33.67
EV($35 on .5% BJ), or I should say Expected Return (ER) = 35*(.995) = $34.83

I hope you see the subtle difference too. If you LOVE VP and prefer it over table games, then sure, go ahead and play VP. It's costing you a tad over $1, but if that's what you love that's what you love. To "technically" answer your question though, VP is NOT the best game to play free play on (pending if you can get table game vouchers). If you can get table game free play CHIPS that you can use over and over again, well then this becomes a bit of a more lopsided battle because your ER will go up even more for the table games.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 1st, 2015 at 7:47:58 AM permalink
I use mine VUXing, so I get OVER 100% expected return :-D
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Romes
Romes
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October 1st, 2015 at 7:50:20 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I use mine VUXing, so I get OVER 100% expected return :-D

This, or if you only use your table free plays in a positive count you're getting over 100% on them as well =D!
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 1st, 2015 at 7:58:47 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

This, or if you only use your table free plays in a positive count you're getting over 100% on them as well =D!


Agreed. When I used to get free bets, I used them in negative counts though instead of actual chips. But that's when I was a regular counter which I'm not any longer.

I have $120 fp today. Let's see how it goes.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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October 1st, 2015 at 9:13:41 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Since I'm not a math guy I can give you better answers. But first a question: did you have to use the free play on a machine?

If a machine was your only option then yes 7/5;Jacks was most likely your best option because of a combination of the pay table and the variance. You should have a winning hand at least one third of the time on Jacks but a win could be breaking even. .

I believe its 45.50% of the time.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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