Double Up on Jacks or Better???

I just found a 9/6 JoB machine here at Caesar's, but when I win it asks me if I want to double up. What the heck is that and should I do it?

Try it and you'll find out. Basically a 50/50 chance to double your winnings.

I'm not sure what it means or how it works.

You risk what ever you won on the hand of JoB to win double that amount. The machine randomly gives you 5 cards, 1 face up and then 4 face down. The face up card is the dealers card and you must pick one of the 4 down cards and try to beat the dealers card. Aces are high in this game. If you win the double you can choose to do it again or keep the win. If you lose the double it will take you back to the main screen. If you tie the machine will give you the option to double again or take your original win.

Example you hit two pair which pays 10 credits on a 5 credit max bet. You choose to double and it takes you to the double screen.

Double Screen:
7 (up card/dealer card) face down card 1 face down card 2 face down card 3 face down card 4
Let's say you choose face down card 2 and it shows you a 9 then you have won and now your 10 credits has been doubled to 20 credits. You may take the win or continue to the next double.

Quote: HotBlonde

I just found a 9/6 JoB machine here at Caesar's, but when I win it asks me if I want to double up. What the heck is that and should I do it?

I would do it on small amounts and not on big wins - certainly do not risk getting a W-2 that you would not have gotten.

I predict HotBlonde does it every time once she understands it!

do we get another thread on how many days you stick around??

It is a simple high card game against the machine to go double or nothing. 50/50 chance of doubling your money. Whether you should do it depends on your reason for playing. You don't earn any points for the double or nothing bet, so factor that out. It depends whether you like variance or abhor it.

Pretty sure I have told this story here before, but about 20 years ago I was playing nickel VP at the Gold Coast with the double or nothing option and this haggard looking, possibly homeless guy sits 2 machines from me and pulls a few nickels out of his pocket,plays one hand slowly and loses. He pulls a couple more out and plays a hand and hit a winner, then slowly he doubles and wins, and doubles again and wins, and keeps doubling and winning.

Each time he wins I hear his machine racking up the credits so after maybe 5 wins I start watching him and he doubles 4-5 more times and wins each one. He is now over 4000 credits and is staring at the the machine like he is confused. I am thinking he doesn't really know what is going on so I ask him if he needs any help and he says "I've been pushing buttons trying to get my money out but it isn't paying me". He had no idea that he had been risking his winnings each time, he was just pushing lighted buttons trying to get it to pay him! I tell him he has won over $200 and if he hits the button on the very left he will collect, he does, and it is a hand pay so they come and pay him about $240 if I recall correctly. He puts that money in his pocket, pulls out 2 or 3 nickels from his pocket, plays a couple more hands and leaves.

Quote: Johnzimbo

Pretty sure I have told this story here before, but about 20 years ago I was playing nickel VP at the Gold Coast with the double or nothing option and this haggard looking, possibly homeless guy sits 2 machines from me and pulls a few nickels out of his pocket,plays one hand slowly and loses. He pulls a couple more out and plays a hand and hit a winner, then slowly he doubles and wins, and doubles again and wins, and keeps doubling and winning.

Each time he wins I hear his machine racking up the credits so after maybe 5 wins I start watching him and he doubles 4-5 more times and wins each one. He is now over 4000 credits and is staring at the the machine like he is confused. I am thinking he doesn't really know what is going on so I ask him if he needs any help and he says "I've been pushing buttons trying to get my money out but it isn't paying me". He had no idea that he had been risking his winnings each time, he was just pushing lighted buttons trying to get it to pay him! I tell him he has won over $200 and if he hits the button on the very left he will collect, he does, and it is a hand pay so they come and pay him about $240 if I recall correctly. He puts that money in his pocket, pulls out 2 or 3 nickels from his pocket, plays a couple more hands and leaves.

That's such a cool story!

Quote: odiousgambit

do we get another thread on how many days you stick around??

i was here 4 nights a little over a week ago, started school and now I'm back for 4 nights for the holiday, leaving tomorrow. Don't know if I could ever beat my 28 day streak from just a couple months ago.

I have to announce that I just hit Aspiration Level 1 Diamond at Caesar's this trip! I hope I get another $100 celebratory dinner.

Quote: HotBlonde

I just found a 9/6 JoB machine here at Caesar's, but when I win it asks me if I want to double up. What the heck is that and should I do it?

If it's an old machine, you should see if it still has the double-up bug.

http://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/

Does anyone have the actual math on the double up game itself? Everyone says it's "basically a 50/50." Well, I'm sure that has to be documented/regulated somewhere. Is it a true 50/50 based off the RNG, or is there a house edge on it, or ?

Quote: Romes

Does anyone have the actual math on the double up game itself? Everyone says it's "basically a 50/50." Well, I'm sure that has to be documented/regulated somewhere. Is it a true 50/50 based off the RNG, or is there a house edge on it, or ?

In Nevada, wouldn't it be subject to the rule that games portraying cards have to offer the same odds as dealing from a physical deck? That has always been my assumption, meaning it would be a zero house edge bet. I occasionally play the double up and have not seen anything suspicious, but I also have not carefully tracked it.

Quote: jml24

In Nevada, wouldn't it be subject to the rule that games portraying cards have to offer the same odds as dealing from a physical deck? That has always been my assumption, meaning it would be a zero house edge bet. I occasionally play the double up and have not seen anything suspicious, but I also have not carefully tracked it.

I've tried it a few times just for experience. When I was in Vegas last (not very long ago =D) I showed my partner a double up machine off strip and he thought it was interesting. We flailed nickles at it just to have some fun and a couple drinks and I decided if it was truly a 50/50 I'd just "go for it" and keep doubling until I got like $20 off a 25 cent win or something. A midst my play it seemed whenever I got past 2 or 3 double ups inevitably I'd run in to a dealer ace or (wild) deuce (was playing deuces wild). Then again, I suppose dealing from a regular deck this would happen and there indeed would be times you couldn't even win, just as there were times we couldn't lose with any of the choices. Overall, it seemed balanced to me... and I did end up winning $25 from a full house doubled like 5-6 times or something. I wanted to go for it again, but of course my buddy was laughing and said let's just walk away winners from this -EV game! ...that darn AP. Who trained him so well? =P

The idea intrigues me. Say you play for dollars, and anything trips or higher you get you just double up until you hit just under a W2.

***I started doing the math here, but I'd like to do it more complete at home.

Quote: Romes

Does anyone have the actual math on the double up game itself? Everyone says it's "basically a 50/50." Well, I'm sure that has to be documented/regulated somewhere. Is it a true 50/50 based off the RNG, or is there a house edge on it, or ?

It is 50/50.

GLI regulations state "The Double-up or Gamble options shall have a theoretical return to the player of one hundred percent (100%)."

Also, the Nevada rule concerning video representations of live gambling games would apply, meaning the probability of any card being dealt must be 1/52.

If you're playing a -EV game without an AP goal you should use the DBL up feature often(less -EV hands in trade foe a break even situation) It also adds a bit of excitement to some boring games like 9/6 jacks. You obviously don't want to use it on something you have an edge on, especially if speed is a priority.

If you don't mind variance and play higher limit you can use it to actually speed up your play by using it to cut down on had pay waiting times by 50% on average. Just double all taxable jackpots (assuming the machine you're playing allows you to, without automatically locking up).

I have had very good success using the DBL up feature even on big hands including royals that were already had-pays(one time beating the dealers king with an ace). Most recently I used it after quickly hitting a $1 bonus poker deluxe 4oak from $400 to $800. When I actually figure out how to post pictures I may post a few.

I almost always pick the same card so I don't drive myself nuts. I usually never even look at the other 3 cards.

I have seen double for half features online.

A Double up feature on a VP tournament would certainly be interesting it would add some thought to it.

Quote: AxelWolf

A Double up feature on a VP tournament would certainly be interesting it would add some thought to it.

I did this about 20 years ago in a tournament at the 4 Queens to my advantage. It was $125 entry fee which went to the prize fund and included room for two nights. Rules were you played two sessions and they add your two session scores together, and to make the semi-finals you had to be in the top 24 (out of about 230 players as I recall.

My first session I didn't double much and had a low score, so I told my wife I was going to need to double and win a lot in the second session. I got one full house (JOB) and doubled and won three times, and that was enough to get me into the semis. In the semis which was one round you needed to be in the top three to get into the finals, and people placing 4th-24th all got $125 I think, so I used the same strategy and won enough doubles to make the finals.

In the finals there was a guy to my left and the other guy was a couple machines to my right. I played slowly at first and kept an eye on the guy next to me, who was doubling a ton but losing, so I tried to make sure my score would beat his. He ran through all his credits and I had his score beat, so I only had to beat the guy to my right. I couldn't see his score but at some point he stopped playing as his credits ran out and the tourney director told me I had taken first place. Still have the plaque laying around somewhere.

Quote: Johnzimbo

I did this about 20 years ago in a tournament at the 4 Queens to my advantage. It was $125 entry fee which went to the prize fund and included room for two nights. Rules were you played two sessions and they add your two session scores together, and to make the semi-finals you had to be in the top 24 (out of about 230 players as I recall.

My first session I didn't double much and had a low score, so I told my wife I was going to need to double and win a lot in the second session. I got one full house (JOB) and doubled and won three times, and that was enough to get me into the semis. In the semis which was one round you needed to be in the top three to get into the finals, and people placing 4th-24th all got $125 I think, so I used the same strategy and won enough doubles to make the finals.

In the finals there was a guy to my left and the other guy was a couple machines to my right. I played slowly at first and kept an eye on the guy next to me, who was doubling a ton but losing, so I tried to make sure my score would beat his. He ran through all his credits and I had his score beat, so I only had to beat the guy to my right. I couldn't see his score but at some point he stopped playing as his credits ran out and the tourney director told me I had taken first place. Still have the plaque laying around somewhere.

That's pretty cool I never imagined they actually had something like this they have so few VP tournaments as it is. I'm surprised more local places don't have them often.

Most people would not know how to use the double up to their advantage. I imagine most VP tournaments would be worth doing if they had this.

I would bet that out of the say 230 people in that tournament only a few used the feature...and not too surprising that me and the guy to my left in the finals used it quite a bit. In fact, when he ran out of credits he started watching me and when the director told me I could stop as I already had the highest score, he said "you might as well just double every time and see how many times you can win".

Quote: Johnzimbo

I would bet that out of the say 230 people in that tournament only a few used the feature...and not too surprising that me and the guy to my left in the finals used it quite a bit. In fact, when he ran out of credits he started watching me and when the director told me I could stop as I already had the highest score, he said "you might as well just double every time and see how many times you can win".

Using it could definitely go the opposite way and you end up with nothing. Imagine A tournament that offered something for last place as well. You either place in the top or get last place money.

Would I be able to use the Wizard's VP Wizard app during a tournament?

Here's a link to my discussion on it. It is only 50/50 for the first attempt with a chance of push.
double up question

MustangSally was kind enough to provide some math on page 2 of the thread.

Quote: HotBlonde

Would I be able to use the Wizard's VP Wizard app during a tournament?

I can't imagine why you would want to, unless you're horrible at VP. I doubt you would be giving up much, and if speed is a factor it's a bad idea because every second counts. I wouldn't take the chance of someone complaining causing you to be disqualified.

The app isn't going to give you the correct tournament strategy anyway. You should probably be going more aggressive for big hands, something you probably need to judge on the fly. It's rare to win a VP tournament without a RF or a few sets of Aces with a kicker.

Quote: MaxPen

Here's a link to my discussion on it. It is only 50/50 for the first attempt with a chance of push.
double up question

MustangSally was kind enough to provide some math on page 2 of the thread.

Your thread sparks interesting thoughts about this... If you're going to do combinational analysis, where you say "what are my odds of doubling 4 times in a row?" then yes the answer would be .5^4... with each round being .5^2, .5^3, etc, etc. Basically your odds get cut in half every time you want to parlay another double.

However... Couldn't, and shouldn't, these be looked at as independent trials? Supposedly the deck is re-shuffled and there are fair odds of any card being dealt to any of the 5 spots. This would erase any "state" of the game and, for my understanding, create independent trials. So on each trial you do still have a 50/50. If you don't have a set number of double ups in mind, wouldn't each attempt be it's own 50/50 still?

I don't agree with a couple of statements. One being:

Quote: MaxPen

There are 5 cards dealt out on the double up feature. The machine has one and the other 4, I can choose 1. 1 out of 5 times I will have the lowest or be tied with the lowest card with no possibility to win against the machine's card.

The cards are all completely random. Thus you may have a round where the dealer has an ace, and your cards to choose from are 2-3-4-5. Then again you are just as likely to have a round where the dealer has a 2 and your cards are A-K-Q-J. This is supposedly completely random and shouldn't affect the odds of the independent trials.

Everyone seems to be stuck on the fact that there is 5 cards which is really confusing to me. The other cards are essentially discards. They are worthless to the outcome. Just your card and the dealers card matter and they are both "random." Showing you the other unchosen cards is the same as just dealing more cards off the deck and showing you more and more cards. Who cares? These cards didn't effect the outcome at all. If this were blackjack and card counting, they're just unseen cards and have no effect on the RC.

Also, pushes should be ignored as nothing happens. No wins, no losses, just another re-do of a "random" draw. Sally even states ignoring ties it's 50/50. I don't believe her math on page 2 is correct (big statement, I know) because she's assuming if you go W-W-W-W-P-W that's not 5 wins in a row. She states a push could be the start of a losing streak. Yeah, that has no mathematical barring at all though. You're just as likely to win your next hand after a push as lose. That's like saying the shooter through the dice out of the tub, the next role could be the 7 now!! The dice leaving the tub is the same as a push, nothing happens and you do the game again, which is an independent trial from the previous games.

Romes, I think the point you are missing is that it is not like a coin flip where you only have 2 distinct possible outcomes of the flip. Plus you are never at an advantage nor disadvantage of your possible result which is a factor that needs to be considered beyond the first coin flip.
Maybe if you put your response in that thread it would rejuvenate some more discussion from MS. I don't want to hijack this one.