"It's not whether you win or lose"?
Quote: AxelWolfI seriously doubt that would of had much if any effect on his bad run.
Yeah I know, but I also seriously doubt that he played 6 hours mistake-free. This would be VERY impressive for a beginner. Hell, it's impressive for a non-beginner!
Quote: tournamentkingI'm no teen. But if anyone tells me they were offended by how I delivered a criticism, then I apologize.
I don't know which offended me more.
The original post, or that weak / failed attempt at an apology.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI don't know which offended me more.
The original post, or that weak / failed attempt at an apology.
+1
Quote: tournamentkingMy point was, vp ap's seem to believe if they have four awful losing sessions in a row, somehow their future machines will cooperate and get them to whatever their expectation theoretically should be.
No one is saying that.
Quote: tournamentkingIt's already been said: ap'ing slots properly usually has very little to do with EV calculations in the spirit of how vp is analyzed.
If you are not calculating your EV, why do you think you are an AP? What is your advantage?
Quote: tournamentkingAxel, by the time I get comfortable playing $2 and $5 and maybe even higher, you'll be BEGGING me to play for you. But I won't come cheap like the others.
LOL
Quote: tournamentkingAll the analyses in the world won't make a coin or a card come up any which way. So while results do not matter when trying to figure out wtf should or might happen or not happen, results are the only thing that ultimately counts. Case in point: the guy who hit the four 3's. I'm sure he knew how he was playing a bad-bet machine.
TK, in advantage video poker you are simply playing the odds to your advantage. If results are the only thing that matters then how do you plan to implement a strategy for that? You can't. What I am trying to do with video poker is, per the long run, getting the total of my winning hands to outrun the total of my losing hands.
And, TK, the $50,000 jackpot on a $25 denom Triple Double Bonus Poker is not so unusual. The frequency, with optimum strategy, for small quads with a kicker is about 5800. If you play this game 6 or seven hours a day you will average a $50,000 hit or higher about once a day. What is bizarre about Singer is he "retired his winning progressive Martingale system" a couple of years ago and went back to flat betting video poker, which he always said was a losing system. For me, TK, there is no way in hell I'm gonna retire any of my winning strategies until they shovel dirt on me. Why would anyone retire a winning strategy? It's just plain stupid.
My guess in he was probably playing the 99.58% game. But why was he playing so high? I suspect it's because he is addicted to video poker. And that's something that he has accused AP's of for years. And here's another thing about his retirement and that $600,000 RV he lives in today. His wife is a retired lawyer. Who do you think was the real breadwinner in the family?
Quote: mickeycrimm
My guess in he was probably playing the 99.58% game.
Nah, the picture was a 9/6 TDB machine. At least he married well I guess.
Quote: tournamentkingI couldn't figure out why my "post" function wasn't working Fri and Sat, but I think I finally found it here. Is this right, I was suspended? Huh? How does "personal insult" make sense? I didn't label anyone, and I even said I didn't know which admin. had the by-line, so a personal insult was impossible. Besides, I was asking a question and voicing my still novice video poker opinion. How is this?
As for the subject matter, go back to that $50000 four threes winner that was discussed. I looked up the pay table for that game, and 9/7 is full pay for it, but even that's not 100%. He hit the winner on a 9/6 version, and according to all logic I'm reading, that was a bad bet. So who would ever say it doesn't matter if he won $50k or lost $125 on the hand? Would anybody here turn that down and give the money back if you were given another chance to play that hand on one of those over 100% machines just so you could feel better about having made a "good bet"?
I have never posted or written WTF and have very rarely spoken it. I'm not offended all that much by it, I just don't care for it. It seems to be everywhere today, used in a very casual way, sometimes as a greeting and sometimes as an exclamation.
With my curiosity duly piqued, I decided to google WTF. There were 64,000,000 results with everything that can be imagined. Other than show how common the usage is, it didn't tell me much.
I thought I may have seen WTF on this forum before so I entered the letters into the trusty WOV search feature. Lo and behold there were 614 results for WOV. There were 31 pages of 10 threads each. Three of the threads on the very first page had WTF in the title.
What the heck?
The local chamber of commerce used to sell WTF decals, stickers, etc.
WELCOME TO FRUITA or WTF
Cesspit, I do understand your information, but I still have to ask. It's all well and fine to sit at home and rely on future theory and the like after getting socked good at a vp machine. But that's all it is, reliance on something not happening again and on relying on something coming to fruition on the other side of the curve. So what is it that makes vp ap's so bullish about the future when by the same probability and expectation assessments, they already know that they'll continue to experience more losing than winning sessions?
Quote: BuzzardPerhaps the posters recently visited Fruita , Colorado. Just down the road from Clifton, where I now reside.
The local chamber of commerce used to sell WTF decals, stickers, etc.
WELCOME TO FRUITA or WTF
I used to jump freight trains out of Fruita. Southern Pacific.
Quote: tournamentkingThis "WTF" fact-based information would be a good read for djteddybear.
Cesspit, I do understand your information, but I still have to ask. It's all well and fine to sit at home and rely on future theory and the like after getting socked good at a vp machine. But that's all it is, reliance on something not happening again and on relying on something coming to fruition on the other side of the curve. So what is it that makes vp ap's so bullish about the future when by the same probability and expectation assessments, they already know that they'll continue to experience more losing than winning sessions?
Why do you care how many of your sessions are losing vs winning? This is exactly what the negative progression people do until they get wiped out.
Focus on money won and lost, not sessions won and lost. I will gladly take 9 losing sessions out of 10 if the winning sessions wipe out the 9 losses, and then some.
Be nice to ride inside for a change.
Quote: tournamentkingThis "WTF" fact-based information would be a good read for djteddybear.
Cesspit, I do understand your information, but I still have to ask. It's all well and fine to sit at home and rely on future theory and the like after getting socked good at a vp machine. But that's all it is, reliance on something not happening again and on relying on something coming to fruition on the other side of the curve. So what is it that makes vp ap's so bullish about the future when by the same probability and expectation assessments, they already know that they'll continue to experience more losing than winning sessions?
Your last phrase is looking at it wrong. It's not about sessions. Winning more sessions than you lose is easy. I can provide a VP method that will return over 75% winning sessions. Even on non-full pay machines. Winning more money than you lose over all... ah, now, there's the thing.
The entirety of gambling is based on the reliance of hoping something good happens next rather than something bad. You can't predict each individual decision. You can give a range of results. And if playing a positive expectation machine, it means that you are playing with the best of it.
Just like going all in with a pair of aces versus 7-2 offsuit is no guarantee, but you'd prefer to be in that position than the other way around. Having a series of good bets is more important than winning a single bad bet.
WHICH "fact based" info?Quote: tournamentkingThis "WTF" fact-based information would be a good read for djteddybear.
The fact that "WTF" is part of everyday language usage, or the fact that in the context of the original post it was insulting and that you provided a lame apology?
And so do you. Just man up and apologize before somebody other than me thinks you are being a jerk.
Quote: tournamentkingSay WHAT? I think one of the administrators here has this by-line. I ask WTF? Where am I going wrong? I've said I was "in training" to be a good video poker player. Today I felt knowledgeable enough to go up to quarters because I've been practicing DDB on B. Dancer's software plus playing it for nickels in a few casinos. I found what I know is a more than 100% game, 10/6 DDB. I played two 3 hour sit downs. I lost $250 in the first session and $200 in the second. I got no quads at all! I used my slot card and had $40 in free play to go along with this. It's not a lot to lose really, but I kept thinking if I were playing $1 or $2 or even $5, what a loss!
So why would anyone say it doesn't matter if you win or lose but if you made good bets? Huh? I made good bets every hand I played, didn't I? But YES, it certainly DOES matter if I won or lost, and for more than one reason. I just don't get the uncommon sense about ap video poker play. How can anyone not care if they win or lose? What good does it do if good bets are made and you still lose? How is that supposed to make up for a loss that could have been in the thousands of dollars if I played higher limits? Please help!
TK, I don't think you are a recreational player, but instead you are trying to AP video poker. And as such I personally don't think you were making good bets here. You were playing a game that has a long term expectation of breaking even (100.07%), but comes with a ton of variance. You would be break even if you didn't pull the money out of your pocket. You weren't getting anything extra that would give you an edge.
My own personal experience with DDB was a quarter 9/6 progressive game at the Cal Neva in Reno. There were 0.5% meters running on the Royal Flush, 4 Aces with kicker, Four Aces, Small Quads with kicker, Small Quads. I would key on which ever meter got ran up. And I was getting .125% cashback and .125% comp. A friend of mine played Ten-Play quarter 10/6 DDB upstairs at the Silver Legacy in Reno. His action got him invites to all the big freeroll tourrnaments like Blackjack, Craps and Keno. He used his comp dollars, not just for meals, but to buy Tommy Bahama clothes out of the gift shop. There was a Tommy Bahama retailer somewhere on Virginia street. He cooked a deal with her to sell her the clothes for half the sticker price. In both cases we were getting something extra. And that's what you are gonna have to do if you want to AP video poker. You are going to have to learn how to analyze promotions, cashback, freeplay, etc., to see if the investment in money and time is worth the effort.
DDB is the most popular game with the recreationals. I think it is because 4 Aces with the kicker pays half of a royal. They pot shot the game for so much money and if they don't hit they take a walk. It's a brutal game. 19% of the payback is in Quads, and 2% is in the royal. So you are taking a 21% drop without any of those hands. Compare that to 9/6 Jacks where 2% is in the Royal and 6% is in the quads.
Most places don't have FPDW and that's where 9/6 Jacks come in. Join all the slot clubs you can. Run a little action on 9/6 Jacks. Then see what they send you in the mail. You also have to monitor casinos for promotions. The best promotions are usually in the dog days of summer or in early December. Do yourself a favor and go down to Laughlin and join all the slot clubs. I think you will be surprised at the mailers you will get for free rooms in Laughlin. If you run across a promotion and don't know how to figure it out then post it up here and I'm sure you will get plenty of help.
Axel steered you right when he said you should start with 9/6 Jacks and FPDW. You have to crawl before you walk. These games don't have a lot of strategy moves. You need to develop memorization skills and speed skills. FPDW would be a great game for you to do this. You would have a 0.76% edge while you are learning. This is a game where you are not going to get beat up while you are learning. There is only a 1% loss rate between royals.
Quote: mickeycrimmTK, I don't think you are a recreational player, but instead you are trying to AP video poker. And as such I personally don't think you were making good bets here. You were playing a game that has a long term expectation of breaking even (100.07%), but comes with a ton of variance. You would be break even if you didn't pull the money out of your pocket. You weren't getting anything extra that would give you an edge.
My own personal experience with DDB was a quarter 9/6 progressive game at the Cal Neva in Reno. There were 0.5% meters running on the Royal Flush, 4 Aces with kicker, Four Aces, Small Quads with kicker, Small Quads. I would key on which ever meter got ran up. And I was getting .125% cashback and .125% comp. A friend of mine played Ten-Play quarter 10/6 DDB upstairs at the Silver Legacy in Reno. His action got him invites to all the big freeroll tourrnaments like Blackjack, Craps and Keno. He used his comp dollars, not just for meals, but to buy Tommy Bahama clothes out of the gift shop. There was a Tommy Bahama retailer somewhere on Virginia street. He cooked a deal with her to sell her the clothes for half the sticker price. In both cases we were getting something extra. And that's what you are gonna have to do if you want to AP video poker. You are going to have to learn how to analyze promotions, cashback, freeplay, etc., to see if the investment in money and time is worth the effort.
DDB is the most popular game with the recreationals. I think it is because 4 Aces with the kicker pays half of a royal. They pot shot the game for so much money and if they don't hit they take a walk. It's a brutal game. 19% of the payback is in Quads, and 2% is in the royal. So you are taking a 21% drop without any of those hands. Compare that to 9/6 Jacks where 2% is in the Royal and 6% is in the quads.
Most places don't have FPDW and that's where 9/6 Jacks come in. Join all the slot clubs you can. Run a little action on 9/6 Jacks. Then see what they send you in the mail. You also have to monitor casinos for promotions. The best promotions are usually in the dog days of summer or in early December. Do yourself a favor and go down to Laughlin and join all the slot clubs. I think you will be surprised at the mailers you will get for free rooms in Laughlin. If you run across a promotion and don't know how to figure it out then post it up here and I'm sure you will get plenty of help.
Axel steered you right when he said you should start with 9/6 Jacks and FPDW. You have to crawl before you walk. These games don't have a lot of strategy moves. You need to develop memorization skills and speed skills. FPDW would be a great game for you to do this. You would have a 0.76% edge while you are learning. This is a game where you are not going to get beat up while you are learning. There is only a 1% loss rate between royals.
Very helpful, and thank you to cesspit and axiom etc. also.
Quote: BuzzardThe young guys who talked the old fuddy-duddies into Welcome To Fruita knew exactly what WTF means.
And so do you. Just man up and apologize before somebody other than me thinks you are being a jerk.
Too late Buzzard
KB1
Quote: DJTeddyBearWHICH "fact based" info?
The fact that "WTF" is part of everyday language usage, or the fact that in the context of the original post it was insulting and that you provided a lame apology?
The fact that it's used all the time and has been here, and the fact that it has zero to do with you. You're rattled? Live with it. And if Mr. Wizard believes my apology was not up to his expectations, I'm sure he is capable of identifying it as such and for him I would amend it. So MYOB.
I hit them 6 or 7 times (I literally lost count) in a few hours of play at DDB the other day. I even got a dealt 4444A. I also got two straight flushes (which only pay 250, same as the worst quads). Unfortunately, all except 1 of the SF was at the 50c level, while I was seeing if I could confidently play the strategy that I learned on the training game (thanks Wizard and JB!! That game, with the warnings, and editable paytables, is incredibly useful). Taking $1000 profit out of a 50c machine is certainly nice, but unfortunately the luck didn't carry over when I moved up to the $1 denom.
Obviously, incredibly lucky. I will probably not see that many quads in such a short amount of time for a while. Had I been playing at the $5 level those would all be W2Gs (which alone is a reason for me not to play at that level -- I wish they had a $4 denom, to get the 250-coin payouts away from being hand-pays)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceObviously, incredibly lucky. I will probably not see that many quads in such a short amount of time for a while. Had I been playing at the $5 level those would all be W2Gs (which alone is a reason for me not to play at that level -- I wish they had a $4 denom, to get the 250-coin payouts away from being hand-pays)
In some locations, including northern Nevada (Atlantis), certain VP machines are set to accept up to 10 or 20 coins per play, with the royal bump still coming at 5. You could play $1 VP on those games at 20 coins and achieve this coin-in per play.
Actually, if you're willing to play that high, you may be able to get the casino to adjust the maximum coins on the game you wanted to play. When they point out the $5 machines instead, just explain the tax issues and how a $20 coin-in on $1 denom games avoids that paperwork and therefore keeps your handle-per-hour up. Casinos often have tax-friendly slot paytables ($1199 on dollar slots), so doing it for VP shouldn't be a huge issue.
