Vulturing 'Ultimate X'
If you are worried about getting tossed just play a different game 1 coin really slow for a few minutes, then play the UX 5 coins plat 1 coin a few times afterwards.
It's not playing the machines that get you noticed, it's probably the checking that does you in. They see the same thing over and over.
IMO there's very little money doing it in vegas as an individual. I may be wrong, because I have never spent an entire day doing it. Even when they first came out and very few people were checking, I couldn't find any(By any... I mean not nearly enough)
Some out of state, out of the way places seem to be good.
I wonder if anyone makes 150+ a day on average just on UX?
What about must hits? Everyone I know gave up activity searching for them. Sure if they happen to be in a casino and find a good one.
2 really sharp conservative AP's have both all but given up due to horrible results. They played them solid for a long time.
Anyone who actually claims to be doing well just sniping off UX and must hits are always broke.
As for UX, it depends on location as you said. You need a location with many machines and many regular players who leave them behind. In Vegas, they're scattered all around.
geez.. I'd be lucky to get +$15 total from my 2 local casinos.
most of the time the multipliers are on the $0.05 machines.
you're really down for the day if you find a $1 machine w/multipliers and whiff :(
Quote: 100xOdds$150/day from ult X?!
geez.. I'd be lucky to get +$15 total from my 2 local casinos.
most of the time the multipliers are on the $0.05 machines.
you're really down for the day if you find a $1 machine w/multipliers and whiff :(
I can confirm that one of my AP confederates averaged about $19.50/hour over 40 days (>200 hours) of vulturing nothing but Ultimate X and Konami Rock Around the Clock and picking up abandoned free play on machines. He didn't hit any handpays. This was summer of 2014 at two casinos in close proximity to each other.
I tried myself over two weekends (4 days, 32 hours), recording only expected win (e.g. a "NEXT HAND 2X" on a quarter line is worth $1.25, discounted by some value r to account for the house edge) and averaged about $25.00/hour.
It really depends on what gaming market you are in and the competition. If you and a friend somehow "own" all the AP machines in large casino such as Foxwoods, you're looking at a six-figure income.
Maybe one day I'll find 7x on 10 lines at the 25-cent level and be dealt four of a kind. If not, my bank account will still be $100 bigger because of checking for multipliers
it's usually just 1 or 2 2-3x multipliers left behind, so they probably aren't winning. I've recently observed a serial dropper at the 0.50 denom, he seems to put a $100 in, and when it's gone, he moves to the next machine, nearly always leaving a small multiplier behind and cashing out $5-$9.x. I usually try to stay two machines away from a dropper so they don't realize their error, this guys a tough judgement because he will end up coming back to that machine and playing it again.Quote: rudeboyoiWhat do u think the reason is that most players leave these multipliers on the machine? Did they go on some kind of winning streak and just decide to quit?
I think that's the most common scenario, player just runs out of money they wanted to spend and leave whatever's left behind. The ones that are loaded up are usually on .05 or under.
Bob Dancer has said he lost over $100,000 playing UX DDB straight up last year or the year before, I don't remember. I have no clue how anyone can play this game straight up.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI think when it comes to specific games, UX players are the worst. Especially strategy wise.
Bob Dancer has said he lost over $100,000 playing UX DDB straight up last year or the year before, I don't remember. I have no clue how anyone can play this game straight up.
Why would someone who advertises they only play when they fee they have an advantage, adding promotions in, play this game "straight up"? What am I missing?
Quote: BozWhy would someone who advertises they only play when they fee they have an advantage, adding promotions in, play this game "straight up"? What am I missing?
My last sentence wasn't necessary aimed at Dancer. Just typical everyday UX players. The game is tough!
don't know you're really missing anything. Full pay 9/6 ddb utx pays 99%, with promos and mail I can see places where he'd play it and probably be at about 100.3-100.5%.Quote: BozWhy would someone who advertises they only play when they fee they have an advantage, adding promotions in, play this game "straight up"? What am I missing?
Combine ddb variance being insane, utx variance being insane, if you're willing to play that at a tiny edge with volume you'd definitely have a good possibility of pretty brutal results.
Im fairly certain he was playing heavily at the Palms at some point for various promotions.Quote: BozWhy would someone who advertises they only play when they fee they have an advantage, adding promotions in, play this game "straight up"? What am I missing?
Personally without promotions I would be getting crushed on UX. Not including sniping them.
Quote: chaunceyb3I can confirm that one of my AP confederates averaged about $19.50/hour over 40 days (>200 hours) of vulturing nothing but Ultimate X and Konami Rock Around the Clock and picking up abandoned free play on machines. He didn't hit any handpays. This was summer of 2014 at two casinos in close proximity to each other.
I tried myself over two weekends (4 days, 32 hours), recording only expected win (e.g. a "NEXT HAND 2X" on a quarter line is worth $1.25, discounted by some value r to account for the house edge) and averaged about $25.00/hour.
It really depends on what gaming market you are in and the competition. If you and a friend somehow "own" all the AP machines in large casino such as Foxwoods, you're looking at a six-figure income.
hm.. 200hrs over 40days = 5hrs/day
a casino has that many Ult X machines?!
or do you just sit there and wait?
(I only do 1 pass of ult X machines and only takes about 1hr total for both of my casinos.)
It takes about 1.5 hours to comb through all the machines.
Quote: Ibeatyouraces
Bob Dancer has said he lost over $100,000 playing UX DDB straight up last year or the year before, I don't remember. I have no clue how anyone can play this game straight up.
One could play a hybrid version of straight up. IF you only started playing when you found a vulture opportunity and played 10 coins until you got no multipliers.
Although every single game would be 10 coins, you would have played only multiplier hands unlike people who play it normally. That might be good to knock out coin-in promotions. At least it would be better than straight-up play.
Quote: rxwineOne could play a hybrid version of straight up. IF you only started playing when you found a vulture opportunity and played 10 coins until you got no multipliers.
Although every single game would be 10 coins, you would have played only multiplier hands unlike people who play it normally. That might be good to knock out coin-in promotions. At least it would be better than straight-up play.
No it wouldnt. That is possibly a worse idea than play a backup system. On a 5 play machine you have to have at least 11x worth of multipliers to put it in positive teritory.
Quote: GWAENo it wouldnt. That is possibly a worse idea than play a backup system. On a 5 play machine you have to have at least 11x worth of multipliers to put it in positive teritory.
Well, if Dancer is playing straight up he's getting plenty of screens without 11x worth multipliers at 10 coins in.
(unless he's found some magic ux machine that delivers multipliers all the time)
Quote: rxwineWell, if Dancer is playing straight up he's getting plenty of screens without 11x worth multipliers at 10 coins in.
(unless he's found some magic ux machine that delivers multipliers all the time)
And because he is playing them they are good?
He makes his money through books and radio, his AP days are way behind him.
He's playing for point multipliers, Drawings, mailers etc etc it's probably not an advantage on the machines but the rewards that come from extra stuff hes doing.Quote: rxwineWell, if Dancer is playing straight up he's getting plenty of screens without 11x worth multipliers at 10 coins in.
(unless he's found some magic ux machine that delivers multipliers all the time)
Quote: GWAEAnd because he is playing them they are good?
He makes his money through books and radio, his AP days are way behind him.
Bob and Richard have stated repeatedly how little money there is in books. And how much money are they really making off their radio show? I can't imagine the Southpoint and the Palms are paying big money to advertise their promotions....to APs lol. The ad revenue is probably enough to keep the show afloat. Aren't they just doing the show out of the goodness of their hearts?
I was under the impression that bob is pulling in 6 figures from VP.
Quote: rudeboyoiWhat do u think the reason is that most players leave these multipliers on the machine? Did they go on some kind of winning streak and just decide to quit?
I think one of the major reasons is players say "I'll quit when I reach X dollars".
Quote: chaunceyb3I believe he never was sitting down/camping out (unless a ploppy was playing $1 Ten Play or something and changed games often). The reason was because this casino floor is so big and the UX banks of machines are so scattered.
It takes about 1.5 hours to comb through all the machines.
It does in stl too. Lots of them there.
The worst is seeing 4 side by side machines all empty with $3.25, $4.75, $5.05, $7.35 cashout screens. Then I know the "local guy" who plays 1 credit per line hit all the machines. Guy has been doing UX Vulturing for a year now and is still on 1 credit per line. Five days a week I'll check the UX/Must Hit Bys before a live poker sesssion and see him vulturing/waiting UX and then 12 hours later he's still at the casino vulturing/waiting and doesn't even play other games. Probably makes $3-5 clearing 4 machines when he could be making $15-25.
Also the probability of tossing everything in deuces it's also a lot higher than I recalled.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/20418-so-how-much-do-you-chase-perfection-with-regards-to-optimal-play/#post419258
Quote: JBSince it was relatively easy to do, I ran the figures. Here are the number of hands where the optimal play is to discard everything:
9/6 JoB and 8/5 BP: 84,360 (3.246%)
10/7/5 or 9/7/5 DB: 36,000 (1.385%)
9/6 DDB: 52,812 (2.032%)
9/7 TDB: 35,040 (1.348%)
9/6 TDB: 35,904 (1.381%)
35/8 AA: 17,400 (0.6695%) All American - I included this because of its many 2-to-a-straight-flush and 3-to-a-straight holds
FPDW: 495,528 (19.066%)
NSUD: 451,260 (17.363%)
9/4/4/3 BDW: 570,324 (21.944%)
So Deuces Wild variants indeed force the optimal player to discard the entire initial hand much more often than Jacks or Better variants do.
So both happening is roughly a 1 in 608 event with nsud numbers. If the paytable was Colorado deuces, then using the fpdw number is better and is about 1 in 554 overall. Way more likely than I guessed. This is exactly why my gf refuses to play deuces. She hates tossing everything. And if math didn't tell me otherwise, I'd avoid deuces like the plague too.
Quote: tringlomaneNo deuces on the redraw either. Given a throwaway hand, odds of not getting any deuce in ten redraw hands I'd 1 in 105.6 (higher than I thought).
Also the probability of tossing everything in deuces it's also a lot higher than I recalled.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/20418-so-how-much-do-you-chase-perfection-with-regards-to-optimal-play/#post419258
So both happening is roughly a 1 in 608 event with nsud numbers. If the paytable was Colorado deuces, then using the fpdw number is better and is about 1 in 554 overall. Way more likely than I guessed. This is exactly why my gf refuses to play deuces. She hates tossing everything. And if math didn't tell me otherwise, I'd avoid deuces like the plague too.
Not only did I not catch a deuce, not one turned into a winner and also a deuce was the ONLY card I didn't redraw one of!
i didn't make a profit on any vulture screen.
at best i broke even.
ie: 3play = 15 credit
i won at most 15 credits and most of the time 5 or 0 :(
then played $1 98% deuces wild straight up to get enough points for some freeplay.
55% return after 150 hands :(
and after each 50 hands, i switched to a different machine.
what have i done to anger the VP gods???
Quote: 100xOddshad my worst day of vulturing in a long while.
i didn't make a profit on any vulture screen.
at best i broke even.
ie: 3play = 15 credit
i won at most 15 credits and most of the time 5 or 0 :(
then played $1 98% deuces wild straight up to get enough points for some freeplay.
55% return after 150 hands :(
and after each 50 hands, i switched to a different machine.
what have i done to anger the VP gods???
150 hands is too low for variance to work itself out, so I wouldn't be too concerned. If you start switching back and forth from non DW to DW and get quads on DW I would start breaking things.
Quote: Ibeatyouraces
Quote: 21formeIbeatyouraces, nice!
My last two big finds, both triple plays with all three having 11x's, I bricked both times.
Quote: chaunceyb3It took seven years, but finally hit a multiplier Royal. Still looking for that elusive handpay, though.
Nice hit. So far I've only hit one royal vulturing and it missed a multiplier. Have have four total hand pays, three of which had four aces in them. The first was dealt quad tens on a triple play 25¢ DDB with three 8x's
I attribute this to two factors, at least in my area:
1. The number of vultures has increased.
2. The ploppies have lost interest in UX because of the lousy pay tables, especially at the 5 and 10 cent levels.
Quote: 21formeHas anyone else noticed that the number of available mults are dropping off compared with a year or two ago?
I attribute this to two factors, at least in my area:
1. The number of vultures has increased.
2. The ploppies have lost interest in UX because of the lousy pay tables, especially at the 5 and 10 cent levels.
I can't see how people stay in action on UX. It's a wicked game, even when you hit something, it doesn't take long to give it back. Not only bad paybacks, but the strategy mistakes have to be huge.
There's lots of new VP variants as well. I'm not sure how hard it is to find UX sniping opportunity's because I only occasionally look if it's convenient.
Quote: AxelWolfI can't see how people stay in action on UX. It's a wicked game, even when you hit something, it doesn't take long to give it back. Not only bad paybacks, but the strategy mistakes have to be huge.
We say the same thing. The regulars at home are constantly going to the ATM or cage getting a marker or a cash advance. Some of the nickel players never even leave their seat to use the restroom. Probably the most addictive vp game I've seen.
winning streak is fun.Quote: IbeatyouracesWe say the same thing. The regulars at home are constantly going to the ATM or cage getting a marker or a cash advance. Some of the nickel players never even leave their seat to use the restroom. Probably the most addictive vp game I've seen.
Quote: 21formeHas anyone else noticed that the number of available mults are dropping off compared with a year or two ago?
I attribute this to two factors, at least in my area:
1. The number of vultures has increased.
2. The ploppies have lost interest in UX because of the lousy pay tables, especially at the 5 and 10 cent levels.
Well I just started doing this so I can't compare to a year or two ago, but at my local casino the UltX machines are among the most popular VP. I do see multiple other people vulturing on occasion, including people who are clearly not AP's , so I suspect (1) is the cause.
Edit: Of course it could also be that after playing for a while people eventually figure out how it works, and why leaving multipliers is silly. Abandoned multipliers would then be rarer without any drop-off in play or increase in vulturing.
Quote: 21formeHas anyone else noticed that the number of available mults are dropping off compared with a year or two ago?
Is it legal for casinos to wipe multipliers after a certain period of machine inactivity? I'm most positive a casino near me does this... Perhaps this is another reason they're dropping?
Probably as long as it remains above the state minimum. It shouldn't be allowed since it's player banked. In my opinion its just like a progressive I don't see any difference.Quote: RomesIs it legal for casinos to wipe multipliers after a certain period of machine inactivity? I'm most positive a casino near me does this... Perhaps this is another reason they're dropping?
Quote: RomesIs it legal for casinos to wipe multipliers after a certain period of machine inactivity? I'm most positive a casino near me does this... Perhaps this is another reason they're dropping?
I doubt that is happening. There are a lot of vultures. Let me know via pm what casino you are referring to if it is where I think it is and I can give you the scoop.
Quote: 21formeHas anyone else noticed that the number of available mults are dropping off compared with a year or two ago?
I attribute this to two factors, at least in my area:
1. The number of vultures has increased.
2. The ploppies have lost interest in UX because of the lousy pay tables, especially at the 5 and 10 cent levels.
1. yes, definitely yes
2. not so much
Quote: AxelWolfI can't see how people stay in action on UX. It's a wicked game, even when you hit something, it doesn't take long to give it back. Not only bad paybacks, but the strategy mistakes have to be huge.
Quote: IbeatyouracesWe say the same thing. The regulars at home are constantly going to the ATM or cage getting a marker or a cash advance. Some of the nickel players never even leave their seat to use the restroom. Probably the most addictive vp game I've seen.
And that's why I say "not so much" on number 2. People are playing it wrong plus a crap paytable, but they seriously don't care. Easily the most popular VP game in St. Louis. And Super Times Pay has lost ground to it. Anything other than Ultimate X or STP hardly gets played in St. Louis. "Hot Roll" is trying to build a following. That's basically STP with a 5 credit bonus bet instead of 1 or 2.
And I have always been curious about what would the return difference be if you played suboptimally on Ultimate X...namely by playing standard VP strategy.
I was about ready to "cry JB" for this query. But then I realized I could compute it myself with some of his great tools. And ideas from this thread:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/20663-learning-a-new-game-utx-or-qq/
For 10-line UX
8/5 Double Double Bonus
Standard VP Basic Strategy: Average multiplier: 1.998874X Base return from strategy: 96.780625%
Overall return with multiplier: 96.7261335%
Basic Ultimate X strategy: Average multiplier: 2.023095X Base return from strategy: 96.1885048%
Overall return with multiplier: 97.29925%...Very close to JB's analyzer's result
So you only lose 0.573% from optimal if you play Ultimate X with optimal strategy from standard 8/5 DDB.
Now let's look at Bonus because of all the games, this has the biggest gap in return from standard Bonus. Bonus is even weirder thanks to the generous multiplier setup. Even if you play standard VP strategy for 6/5 Bonus, it's higher return to play Ultimate X vs. standard Bonus!
Standard VP Basic Strategy: Average multiplier: 2.016513X Base return from strategy: 96.867347%
Overall return with multiplier: 97.6671555% (0.8% higher than standard bonus!!!)
Basic Ultimate X strategy: Average multiplier: 2.038779X Base return from strategy: 96.298135%
Overall return with multiplier: 98.165312%...Very close to JB's analyzer's result.
Difference between optimal strategy and standard VP strategy, again only 0.498%!!!
These are MUCH less than I expected. I assume the rest of the forum expected the errors to be much higher as well. I still feel like casinos should offer better paytables thanks to the errors, but at least the addicts aren't getting fleeced from strategy errors that badly. The biggest error they make is the error I hope they make... ;)
Quote: tringlomane...The biggest error they make is the error I hope they make... ;)
Like this one we found at The Palms last week...
Unfortunately, we only profited $20 :-(
