Vulturing 'Ultimate X'

It's not really plus ev at all because the second 5 credits is - ev and theoretically a separate bet

Quote: Wizardofnothing

It's not really plus ev at all because the second 5 credits is - ev and theoretically a separate bet

^Exactly

Quote: Wizardofnothing

It's not really plus ev at all because the second 5 credits is - ev and theoretically a separate bet

I disagree because the overall play remains +EV. If there were somehow a UX machine upon which you could ONLY bet ten credits per line and you found one with multipliers, then you would play until you didn't have multipliers anymore.

That said, the percentage advantage is diluted, at least on the initial play, by betting ten.

If you found a machine that was only ten credits and it had a multiplier I do not think it would be plus ev- but maybe I'm not thinking clearly , I would equate this to barnyard poker They reset st 3 or 5x however if you find one at 6 and 6 it is not a good play

It's totally different. If you accept that a UX game has an overall return of 96%, just as an example, then you might say that half of that return even on a Ten-Play comes from the Base Hands and the other half on the potential for multipliers for future hands.

If you take .48 and multiply it by ten, then you have 4.80, if you add the other 4.80 for the multiplier potential, then you end up with 9.60 which is an expectation of 96 credits in 100 credit bet given ten hands. If you add an extra 4.8 credits to that as the result of an improvement to the Base Hand brought by one 2x multiplier, then your ER would be 100.8 credits on 100 credits bet.

Quote: RS

Quote: 100xOdds

avg of 2x multiplier on every line = +EV even if you play 10coins
(ie: 11x on 1 of the hands on a 5play machine)

but would you play 10coins till you no longer have an avg of 2x on every line?
or vulture (5coins) and take the massive +EV?

10-coining UX, even with a single 2x multiplier, is still +EV. It's just that a lot of the EV is tied up in the next hand.

I'm not sure if you understand what he wants to do. He always wants to play 10 coins until he naturally ends up with zero multipliers while playing max bet. It could be 1 hand or 20 hands . I'm not so sure that would be plus EV on a 10 play.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm not sure if you understand what he wants to do. He always wants to play 10 coins until he naturally ends up with zero multipliers could be 1 hand or 20 hands . I'm not so sure that would be plus EV on a 10 play.

It would because each play still has +ER taken individually. Still much better percentage to play five credits, though.

Kinda what I meant, thanks for clarifying

Quote: 100xOdds

so if you find a machine with even a single 2x multiplier, keep playing 10coins till you no longer have a multiplier???
i don't know the math on that but my gut tells me that's not +EV?

Quote: RS

You'd be better off playing 5 coins/line. But 10 coins is still +EV.

Let's take a look:

Let's say a 10 play 10 cent machine (simple math).

Playing 5 coins (vulturing), with a single 2x multiplier, on 8-5 JOB with typical mults I've seen (2x royal, 10x for flush, etc) I'm showing a payback of about 97%. However, since we're vulturing playing 5 coins not worrying about mults, we can essentially plug this in to a regular JoB calculator, and get back a payback of 97% as well.

EV = EV(hand1) + EV(hand2) + EV(hand3) + ...EV(hand10)

EV(hand 1) = .50*.97 = .485, for a net loss of 1.5 cents
EV(hand 2) = (.50*.97)x2 = (.485)x2 = .97, for a net GAIN of 47 cents (this was the 2x mult hand)
EV(hand 3) = .50*.97 = .485, for a net loss of 1.5 cents
...
EV(hand 10) = .50*.97 = .485, for a net loss of 1.5 cents

Thus, EV of playing a round of 10 play, 5 coin (dimes) with one 2x multiplier is: EV = .47 - 13.5 = .335... net gain of 34 cents, when betting $5... for an edge of ~6.75%.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at 10 coins, with a single 2x multiplier, on the same JoB game but 10 coin and counting typical future mults as described above... The payback is ~97%

EV = EV(hand1) + EV(hand2) + EV(hand3) + EV(hand10)

EV(hand 1) = 1*.97= .97, for a net loss of 3 cents
EV(hand 2) = (1*.97)*2 = (.97)*2 = 1.94, for a net gain of 94 cents
EV(hand 3) = 1*.97= .97, for a net loss of 3 cents
...
EV(hand 10) = 1*.97= .97, for a net loss of 3 cents

So here we can see the EV of playing a full ten coins is: EV = -(9*.03) + .94 = 67 cents, when betting $10... for an edge of ~6.75%.

WITHOUT FUTURE MULT CONSIDERATIONS
I also ran the UltX Calculator and set the future mults all to 1x, to see how horrible the game is for a single 10 coin play, ignoring future mults. EV of the 1 round is -$5.82, with a 38% payback on the same 8/5 game. This is handy to use in thought later.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, yes they're correct in stating that playing a 10 coin play with a single 2x multiplier is +EV... HOWEVER, that EV is not going to be realized this hand. The EV of THIS HAND only is horrendous (-$5.82 at a 38% payback). So when you play this hand, you ARE going to lose money, but you'll "get it back" when you play the multipliers off of the next hand. The EV of the first scenario is the EV of playing the hand... The EV of the 2nd scenario is the EV you'll realize by playing the multipliers on the next hand. So you can say they're both +EV, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

This is where I think there could be some debate. To me, if you just play 10 coin, 10 coin, 10 coin, until you get a 7x or better mult then vulture, then you're just simply playing the game straight up and vulturing yourself at the end. Yes you yield a very very small +EV from the first play if the machine has a mult already present, but I believe you're blowing that advantage far far away if you play 10 coin hoping for future rewards.

The reason this gets complicated is say you get a 2x on your subsequent hands when starting with a "free" 2x and playing 10 coin... Say you keep playing 10 coin until you get your 7x or greater... Well you're under the assumption "I've got a multiplier, this is +EV" where I believe there are diminishing returns to the number of times you play the 10 coin because the EV of the hands individually are absolutely horrible.

Now I feel as though I'm rambling, so I'll just stop... Let's discuss.

You make my head hurt.
Can we just go back to Anna Kendrick? 2F

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

You make my head hurt.
Can we just go back to Anna Kendrick? 2F

Go back? ...I never left <3.

Well if you can find a screen where it shows 10 coins per line bet, the Ultimate X Active icon is showing and there's a winning hand with no next hand multiplier text I think you have a case for wiped out multipliers.

Of course I'm still not sure how/why the same cards show on multiple denominations and whether that would affect this.

Romes,
Thx for the math!
But the situation i was saying is:
If the AVG multiplier is 2x then do 10 coins till the avg is below 2x.

Ie:
5play machine. To have an avg 2x worth of multipliers you need to have a total of 10x worth of multipliers.

If i play that way, how much less +ev is it vs vulturing/5coin a screen with 10x worth of multipliers on a 5play machine?

But why would you want to do this if you are vulturing

Quote: Wizardofnothing

But why would you want to do this if you are vulturing

For a chance to get a higher mutiplier and hit a big hand.

Since an avg of 2x mutipliers makes it breakeven if you 10coin, you're basically freerolling for that round.

My goal is to hit the holy grail and im willing to sacrifice some +ev for it, as long as its minimal :)

Quote: 100xOdds

Romes,
Thx for the math!
But the situation i was saying is:
If the AVG multiplier is 2x then do 10 coins till the avg is below 2x.

Ie:
5play machine. To have an avg 2x worth of multipliers you need to have a total of 10x worth of multipliers.

If i play that way, how much less +ev is it vs vulturing/5coin a screen with 10x worth of multipliers on a 5play machine?

So say you walk up to a machine with 10 3x on it. You can either play it at 10 coins at a 180% return or you can vulture it at 270%. I understand what you are getting at and think it is an interesting thought. Only problem is you are not guaranteed to have a +ev hand on the next hand which you would vulture. If you dont get at least 10x worth of multipliers off of your first hand then you just lost ev.

Might as well just put money in an play- it's costing you the same ev- I different then if you walked up and found 40 dollars left in machine and you play a hand before cashing out

You'd be best off to just 5-coin the UX multipliers. How much you're giving up by 10-coining vs 5-coining, I have no idea (nor do I care to figure it out).

But if you want to....how do you say it.....maybe you want to have more fun with it (i.e.: have a reason to gamble more), then I don't see a problem with 10-coining it until there are no more multipliers. It's gonna be a wild ride, mind you, since you're likely gonna go many spins in a row with at least one winning hand....

Maximize EV -- 5-coin it
Have fun / gamble at +EV -- 10-coin it until no more mults exist

Quote: RS

You'd be best off to just 5-coin the UX multipliers. How much you're giving up by 10-coining vs 5-coining, I have no idea (nor do I care to figure it out).

But if you want to....how do you say it.....maybe you want to have more fun with it (i.e.: have a reason to gamble more), then I don't see a problem with 10-coining it until there are no more multipliers. It's gonna be a wild ride, mind you, since you're likely gonna go many spins in a row with at least one winning hand....

Maximize EV -- 5-coin it
Have fun / gamble at +EV -- 10-coin it until no more mults exist

best of both worlds?
10coins ONLY if there's an avg of at least 2x multipliers.
if under the 2x avg, then 5coin.

that way every round will still be +EV.

This is almost like saying - hey the count is really really high at this point in the shoe, so I'll add some money into the awful side bet,

Quote: 100xOdds

...Since an avg of 2x mutipliers makes it breakeven if you 10coin, you're basically freerolling for that round...

I think this is your mistake in thinking. For "that round" alone see my 10 coin "that round" example... You're expected to lose a lot with a horrible ~38% payback. The bulk of the EV from playing 10 coin with a 2x mult is based on the FUTURE multipliers. Thus, you're setting yourself up hoping for something better when you already have a 2x mult you could vulture at 5 coin. Given the average mult is 2x, you're not really looking to improve on the future hand from where you are now.

Yes, technically 10 coin with 1 mult is "+EV" but as discussed previously it's largely based on the future multiplier, which as discussed on average is 2x (which you already have). I guess the way I'd put it (no offence intended) is you're looking a gift horse in the mouth by not playing off the mult at 5 coins... in my opinion.

Romes,
I think we have a disconnect.
Avg 2x multipliers on a 5play means its like EVERY line has a 2x multiplier.

Ie: 4x,4x,2x and the other 2 lines have no multipliers

Correct it these are really two separate bets there is very little difference between that and simply putting money in the machine and playing straight up- you are simply finding essentially money on the machine and playing a hand before you cash out the balance

Quote: 100xOdds

Romes,
I think we have a disconnect.
Avg 2x multipliers on a 5play means its like EVERY line has a 2x multiplier.

Ie: 4x,4x,2x and the other 2 lines have no multipliers

I think if you were going to do that you would not want the average to be 2x. Since the game at 5 coins is not full pay, if you have 10 credits but 2x you are at -ev. 5 coins at 2x is very much +ev.

Now if you use your thinking you may want to have an average of at least 3x. If you have an average of 3x at 10 coins you are +ev for that round. If you brick it you still had positive ev. If you get at least 1 2x on the next round you could vulture it and be at positive ev for that one as well.

Quote: GWAE

I think if you were going to do that you would not want the average to be 2x. Since the game at 5 coins is not full pay, if you have 10 credits but 2x you are at -ev. 5 coins at 2x is very much +ev.

Now if you use your thinking you may want to have an average of at least 3x. If you have an average of 3x at 10 coins you are +ev for that round. If you brick it you still had positive ev. If you get at least 1 2x on the next round you could vulture it and be at positive ev for that one as well.

ahh.. thx.
if the machine returns 97%, then I need an avg of 2.04x to be +EV.

hm.. from Romes's math:
EV= (.50*.97)x2 = (.485)x2 = .97, for a net GAIN of 47 cents (this was the 2x mult hand)

so a screen full of 2x multipliers is +47%?
I'm giving up ~47% doing it my way?

Not only is playing 10 coins silly, but you're wasting time by not looking and getting other machines.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Not only is playing 10 coins silly, but you're wasting time by not looking and getting other machines.

What if there are only a couple other machines? Grey/blue hairs on them? Supposed to throw them on the the floor, let them holler 'rape', make their day? Decisions, decisions, no one said it would be easy ;-) just 2F

Quote: 100xOdds

ahh.. thx.
if the machine returns 97%, then I need an avg of 2.04x to be +EV.

hm.. from Romes's math:
EV= (.50*.97)x2 = (.485)x2 = .97, for a net GAIN of 47 cents (this was the 2x mult hand)

so a screen full of 2x multipliers is +47%?
I'm giving up ~47% doing it my way?

Ok so I thought about this more. I didn't read Romes post because he uses too many words and it makes my brain hurt.

This was already said in this thread but Playing 10 credits instead of vulturing IS a bad idea. Now my boss is near so I can't provide the math that I was planning on.

Quote: GWAE

Ok so I thought about this more. I didn't read Romes post because he uses too many words and it makes my brain hurt.

This was already said in this thread but Playing 10 credits instead of vulturing IS a bad idea. Now my boss is near so I can't provide the math that I was planning on.

I expected to read the end of this post like: And now my boss is near and I... faxed those emails right over to you djkald jad nrlkjtl.

p.s. Sorry about the brain hurt =(.

If you're playing 10 play (dimes), and you have a full screen of 2x multipliers, and you VULTURE for 5 coin:

EV(hand1) = (.50*.97)*2 = (.485)*2 = .97, for a net gain of 47 cents.
...
EV(hand10) = (.50*.97)*2 = (.485)*2 = .97, for a net gain of 47 cents.

Thus, you would be making $5 in bets, and expect back $9.47 cents, for a net gain of $4.70 cents... 9.47/5 = 1.894... thus you have an 89.4% advantage in this situation.

Just play off the UX hand with 5 coins to get maximum EV. Use that extra EV to play -EV and give up whatever you want. That would probably be easier to then know exactly what you give up or gain.

I played Ultimate X Poker for the first time this past weekend and then finally read through this thread and a couple others. Now I understand how the game is played and how it can be vultured. However, I do have a few questions.

Should I never insert my players club card when making 1 vulture play? Are there examples of what has happened to others who used their players card and were penalized? Or is the advice to not use a players card just out of fear and paranoia of what could happen? The only mention of consequence I read in this thread (and a few others) was on page 60. Is chaunceyb3's statement factual?

Quote: chaunceyb3

Management will readily deactivate player cards, take away your ability to earn comp dollars (even in poker), and downgrade you from Black Label to Red Label for vulturing or any kind of machine advantage play (also of course for card counting, edge sorting).

On a lighter note:
Do you verbalize the X as X or "times"? Do you say the multipliers are at least 2x, or "2 times"? Is the name of the game pronounced Ultimate X Poker or Ultimate Times Poker? In the beginning of this thread, it sounded like vultures were having an ultimate time. Now it sounds like it is an ex-opportunity. :-)

I made 244.50 at one casino today just walking through on a vulture play

Quote: Wizardofvultureplays

I made 244.50 at one casino today just walking through on a vulture play

It takes big balls to max bet on green stamps

I wish it was green stamps- only come across those once and a while anymore
This was just 10play bpd. Hit two quads no multiplier on those hands

Quote: RogerKint

It takes big balls to max bet on green stamps

That's rare on GS to make that much. Even @ Max bet and 1 stamp away. He Had to get super lucky unless it was a higher denomination or something, I haven't ever seen .5 or higher.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's rare on GS to make that much. Even @ Max bet and 1 stamp away. He Had to get super lucky unless it was a higher denomination or something, I haven't ever seen .5 or higher.

The 5c GS are right next to the $1 R around the C

Quote: RogerKint

The 5c GS are right next to the $1 R around the C

Is that near the $10 OMG Kittens or somewhere else?

Quote: RS

Is that near the $10 OMG Kittens or somewhere else?

There's an OMG puppies, too, ya know. Cain't hardly find it,though. What does that say about who casinos think plays their games. ..

Quote: beachbumbabs

There's an OMG puppies, too, ya know. Cain't hardly find it,though. What does that say about who casinos think plays their games. ..

OMG puppies dressed as cats! It'll be bigger than wheel of fortune.

Quote: RogerKint

The 5c GS are right next to the $1 R around the C

Just south of the $25 Flush Attacks.

Quote: DRich

Just south of the $25 Flush Attacks.

Oh! Across from the $5 golden monkeys!

Mohegan sun Pocono has that

Quote: BlueEagle

I played Ultimate X Poker for the first time this past weekend and then finally read through this thread and a couple others. Now I understand how the game is played and how it can be vultured. However, I do have a few questions.

Should I never insert my players club card when making 1 vulture play?...

If you're a mostly recreational gambler you should always player with your card inserted. Betting gets you comps, albeit small from betting only a round or two. If you're an AP then maybe don't insert for vulturing, though again since you're only playing a hand here and there you really wouldn't be missing much at all to simply not use your card.

Quote: BlueEagle

On a lighter note:
Do you verbalize the X as X or "times"? Do you say the multipliers are at least 2x, or "2 times"? Is the name of the game pronounced Ultimate X Poker or Ultimate Times Poker? In the beginning of this thread, it sounded like vultures were having an ultimate time. Now it sounds like it is an ex-opportunity. :-)

I've always said and heard others say "X"... as in "I got three 2x's and two 7x's on that play!"

Quote: RS

Is that near the $10 OMG Kittens or somewhere else?

Now you're making me wonder if there is an angle on that game that ate my money...lol

Quote: BlueEagle

I played Ultimate X Poker for the first time this past weekend and then finally read through this thread and a couple others. Now I understand how the game is played and how it can be vultured. However, I do have a few questions.

Should I never insert my players club card when making 1 vulture play? Are there examples of what has happened to others who used their players card and were penalized? Or is the advice to not use a players card just out of fear and paranoia of what could happen? The only mention of consequence I read in this thread (and a few others) was on page 60. Is chaunceyb3's statement factual?


On a lighter note:
Do you verbalize the X as X or "times"? Do you say the multipliers are at least 2x, or "2 times"? Is the name of the game pronounced Ultimate X Poker or Ultimate Times Poker? In the beginning of this thread, it sounded like vultures were having an ultimate time. Now it sounds like it is an ex-opportunity. :-)

I vulture at casinos sporadically...but rarely more than once a month any given casino and often use a card, not even always my own (that last one I really probably shouldn't do as much since it's often my g/f's card). But I also sometimes play other -EV games on top of UX. I have never been punished. Now I could see if I was doing it daily... chanuceyb3 is a straight shooter, imo. If you engage in clear AP behavior in casinos, you do run the risk of rewards privileges being revoked.

And I hear it almost always as "X" and not "times". I don't think if I have ever said "times" multiplier.

Quote: Romes

If you're a mostly recreational gambler you should always player with your card inserted. Betting gets you comps, albeit small from betting only a round or two. If you're an AP then maybe don't insert for vulturing, though again since you're only playing a hand here and there you really wouldn't be missing much at all to simply not use your card.

You could also kill your ADT inserting for vulturing if that is all you are there to do. You generally shouldn't use your card (if you get offers) unless you are going to generate at least your usual coin-in.

I would never vulture with a card/ there is zero benefit it also could get you banned for card pulling - from some casino worker who doesn't understand the concept

Agree, forget the card when vulturing.

Quote: mcallister3200

I came across two machines in Iowa where when you tried to play at 5 credits, it automatically went to 10 when you hit deal, couldn't be vultured. The other utx machines in the same casino did not function in that manner.

I'm reading this thread from the very beginning so sorry about asking something so far back.. but I'm not getting what you're saying, the game FORCED you to put in more money automatically AFTER you played just 5 that you wanted but it took more credits out of your balance after committing to the deal without asking? Or did it pop up on the screen that you would have to add more IF you want the multipliers.
Is that right? Is that legal?

Quote: sammydv

I'm reading this thread from the very beginning so sorry about asking something so far back.. but I'm not getting what you're saying, the game FORCED you to put in more money automatically AFTER you played just 5 that you wanted but it took more credits out of your balance after committing to the deal without asking? Or did it pop up on the screen that you would have to add more IF you want the multipliers.
Is that right? Is that legal?

This is a good two years ago so I can't recall exactly, it's possible the specific machines just functioned a bit differently. Basically as I recall I just pressed bet 1 until got to 5 on all lines, then when hit deal would automatically bet ten. Happened multiple times so wasn't just I pressed it one extra time on accident.

Quote: Exoter175

Every machine I've ever touched with ultimate X on it, has done what I've described. I've never seen of a machine that would act otherwise, and I'd imagine it might go against state regulations to have it "disappear", since the previous player "paid" for that hand's multiplier, and removing it would be taking away from the player. .

Okay, I've read every post to this point so far and still catching up, but I can't get my head around this particular statement. Thinking about what is the casinos concept and reasoning for allowing a multiplayer for next hand?
Obviously to keep a plopper there and enticing continued play in the casinos favor. Nothing new.
But going with that logic of previous player paying for the next multiplier assumes one knows what the multiplier deals mean and the player will always put more in.

My thinking is what is the casinos real concept of this. To me, when one cashes out, wouldn't the 'obligation' to the previous player now be eliminated. Then what would the casinos benefit be leaving so much obvious loss of income by just giving money away to a new player who didn't pay for it. Makes no sense to me, financially, advertorially (sp) or just common money sense.

Seems to me the casinos only avenue would make a cash out a complete reset giving the next player NOTHING. The whole story doesn't seem to be getting told. Obviously it's happening for years some how some way, but going through the thread I've noticed more comments of Vult being less beneficial.

Is it the casinos finally catching on and doing something about it? Are vultures just finding games with one credit in it, which means no cash out? This hasn't been clear.

I'm a sporadic casino goer, but my next trip will be very different from learning everything I've been learning by directly and thoroughly reading this forum. But some things just aren't clear as yet. The quote above is one of those things.

Input is welcome.