Bonus Poker strategy
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December 14th, 2013 at 3:00:26 PM
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I've been brushing up on my bonus poker strategy using the WizardOfOdds simulator and strategy. And I came across this hand:
6c 3d 9c 8c Ah
The WizardOfOdds strategy clearly says to play the A over the 3 card straight flush (type 4 or 5), but the simulator thinks that is an error, saying the expected value of keeping 6-98- is 2.4838 vs. 2.4294 for the ----A. I don't see anything in these cards that indicate a corner case, so what gives?
Actually, hand 49 on https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/bonus-poker/8-5/ is Ac 2h 3h 4h 9s, it has a stronger straight flush draw, but still says to keep the ace, as done the traditional strategy table.
Also, is there a trainer app where it only gives you hard hands. Perhaps in the background it generates 10 starting hands and chooses those with the closest top two expected values to make you learn faster. And would this make you learn faster, or would you know you were in "hard mode" and have your senses on full versus going through ten obvious hands and then getting a hard one unexpectedly.
But that's an aside, what is the correct bonus poker strategy for A versus 3-card straight flush with no high cards and a gap.
6c 3d 9c 8c Ah
The WizardOfOdds strategy clearly says to play the A over the 3 card straight flush (type 4 or 5), but the simulator thinks that is an error, saying the expected value of keeping 6-98- is 2.4838 vs. 2.4294 for the ----A. I don't see anything in these cards that indicate a corner case, so what gives?
Actually, hand 49 on https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/bonus-poker/8-5/ is Ac 2h 3h 4h 9s, it has a stronger straight flush draw, but still says to keep the ace, as done the traditional strategy table.
Also, is there a trainer app where it only gives you hard hands. Perhaps in the background it generates 10 starting hands and chooses those with the closest top two expected values to make you learn faster. And would this make you learn faster, or would you know you were in "hard mode" and have your senses on full versus going through ten obvious hands and then getting a hard one unexpectedly.
But that's an aside, what is the correct bonus poker strategy for A versus 3-card straight flush with no high cards and a gap.
December 14th, 2013 at 3:09:24 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 14th, 2013 at 3:30:06 PM
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In regular 8/5 bonus poker its the 3-card straight flush when you DON'T have a straight penalty card.Quote: ChampagneFireball
But that's an aside, what is the correct bonus poker strategy for A versus 3-card straight flush with no high cards and a gap.
Knowing that exception will save you a couple cents every couple thousand hands.
It's probably different in other BP paytables.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
December 14th, 2013 at 3:41:57 PM
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Quote: teddysIn regular 8/5 bonus poker its the 3-card straight flush when you DON'T have a straight penalty card.
Knowing that exception will save you a couple cents every couple thousand hands.
It's probably different in other BP paytables.
Yep. And I hate to say it, but the wiz's page is in error.
December 14th, 2013 at 3:43:41 PM
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It's THAT finely tuned? How can anyone remember all those rules, especially if you play more than one or two different games?
December 14th, 2013 at 3:47:00 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 14th, 2013 at 3:57:08 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesThe same way a blackjack player will learn the varying differences is house rules and the proper strategies with then, you study.
Also, most of the "difficult rules" don't cost you too much if you forget/ignore them. Penalty exceptions are really only for those who want to make a living off of this game or have to be perfect at everything. I try to remember them, but I'm not beating myself up over them either.
December 14th, 2013 at 5:39:51 PM
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I play vp maybe four times a year at most, and I can only hack it no longer than two hours. Other than the basics, I don't really know what I'm doing. Would it be worth it to study to know the holds perfectly?
December 14th, 2013 at 6:25:33 PM
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I've been printing out the strategy (copy and paste to Word so I can make a small list) and trying it on a simulator, then I take it along for reference if I get stuck. DDB is the latest one, and there, 6-8-9s is a type 2 and correct hold over an ace. But that's for that game; like they said above, it changes from game to game and paytable to paytable. But yeah, there must be 20-30 strategy cards out there anyway.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
December 14th, 2013 at 7:16:00 PM
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Quote: ChampagneFireballAc 2h 3h 4h 9s, it has a stronger straight flush draw, but still says to keep the ace
Suited 234 is not a "stronger" straight flush draw than suited 689; they are identical. 689 can make two straights (56789, 6789T) as can 234 (A2345, 23456). So 234 is considered to have one gap, just like 689 does.
Next, with an Ace versus suited 234, the Ace is a straight penalty card, therefore the Ace wins as the better play. With a hand like A-3-689, neither the Ace nor 3 are penalties to the suited 689, so the suited 689 wins.
However, if you only memorize one rule, it is better to memorize "Ace beats 3 to straight flush (type 4 or type 5)" because the long-term return when always making that play is higher than the long-term return when always playing "3 to a straight flush beats an Ace". Furthermore, it is rare for the fifth card to not be a straight penalty towards the 3 to a straight flush, since it is given that it's a low card (otherwise you'd be questioning AK, AQ, or AJ vs. 3 to a straight flush), and there's not much wiggle room for the fifth card to not affect the 3 to a straight flush. The example given in the original post happens to be one of the few hands where the fifth card was far enough away from the suited 689 to not affect it, making 689 the better play.
But if you only memorize one rule, "Ace beats 3 to a straight flush (type 4 or type 5)" is the better one to memorize, even though it has a few exceptions.
December 14th, 2013 at 7:17:12 PM
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You should stick to slots, VP is for losers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RUQuote: tournamentkingI play vp maybe four times a year at most, and I can only hack it no longer than two hours. Other than the basics, I don't really know what I'm doing. Would it be worth it to study to know the holds perfectly?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 14th, 2013 at 7:22:10 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 14th, 2013 at 7:37:37 PM
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That's illegal.Quote: IbeatyouracesI have the hand analyzer as a bookmark on my phone and if I'm ever not sure, I discreetly plug in the hand I was dealt and make the correct move :-)
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 14th, 2013 at 7:39:57 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 14th, 2013 at 7:46:59 PM
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Yes I doubt they want to mess with the average Joe doing this. I would love to look up VP hands occasionally. I wont do it, Just in case. Casinos hate AP's, I don't want to give them a legitimate reason to 86 me or Decline payment on a Jackpot. Can you imagine if you look up a hand on a $5 VP then Hit a Royal, instead of them bringing money, they bring cuffs?Quote: IbeatyouracesI've done it in front of a slot supervisor as he watched. Didn't have a problem. It's not creating an edge for me.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 15th, 2013 at 8:45:39 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 15th, 2013 at 11:58:57 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesI've done it in front of a slot supervisor as he watched. Didn't have a problem. It's not creating an edge for me.
Being illegal and not prosecuting over it are two different things.
Fwiw, Michigan statute 432.218:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(pzoxw2jks44gt4iabicmjv45))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-432-218
(2) A person commits a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $100,000.00, or both, and, in addition, shall be barred for life from a gambling operation under the jurisdiction of the board if the person does any of the following:
(e) Except as otherwise provided by the board, uses or possesses with the intent to use a device to assist in doing any of the following:
(i) Projecting the outcome of a gambling game.
(ii) Keeping track of the cards played in a gambling game.
(iii) Analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to a gambling game.
(iv) Analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in a gambling game.
The law is similarly written in Nevada and Missouri. All states have this general clause though: except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission.
Your state commission may allow it to be used, I have no idea if any state has approved of their use. Standard operating practice in the casino is to look the other way for now since the obvious flak resulting from prosecution hurts the casino more overall than it helps them. But it is technically illegal.
December 15th, 2013 at 12:00:58 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 15th, 2013 at 12:05:06 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesWell it was a long while ago and no need to use it now so I'm not worried.
Fair enough, just want everyone to be informed. :)
Also if you are in a +EV scenario playing video poker, there is also a chance that trying to figure out the correct decision on your phone costs you more money in the end thanks to to the time you waste looking up the play...haha
December 15th, 2013 at 12:11:04 PM
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Those strategy cards I see many vp players use, they're not an electronic device, but they do the same thing as looking up the best cards to hold on the devices, correct? Are they really ok to use?
December 15th, 2013 at 12:19:49 PM
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Quote: tournamentkingThose strategy cards I see many vp players use, they're not an electronic device, but they do the same thing as looking up the best cards to hold on the devices, correct? Are they really ok to use?
Yes, non-electronic aids are fine. They sell the damn cards in the gift shops...lol This is why I believe casinos generally look the other way when using electronic strategy devices on video poker. But they COULD prosecute you for using an electronic device, if they wanted to.
And if you are only playing VP 4 times a year, I wouldn't worry about things penalty exceptions. More importantly, have basic strategy for that game/paytable down as best you can. It's not hard at all to be 1% within optimal return. 0.5% isn't even that hard. Being 0.1% or less is what starts to take significant practice.
December 15th, 2013 at 12:27:20 PM
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Thank you. I do want to learn the game better for the future so I'll invest in a set of cards and keep the phone in my pocket.
December 15th, 2013 at 12:31:55 PM
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Quote: tournamentkingThose strategy cards I see many vp players use, they're not an electronic device, but they do the same thing as looking up the best cards to hold on the devices, correct? Are they really ok to use?
I print out my own. I always play with a strategy sheet in plain view. I don't refer to it much but when I do, having it out makes things easy because all I have to do is glance at it. I also recommend practice. There are many video poker games on the internet that will let you know when you are making a strategy mistake. It really helps your game. When I first starting practicing with a strategy sheet, I was really surprised how many strategy mistakes I made. Practice really helped cut down on my mistakes.
When somebody doesn't believe me, I could care less. Some get totally bent out of shape when not believed. Weird. I believe very little on all forums
December 15th, 2013 at 12:40:16 PM
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Quote: terapinedI print out my own. I always play with a strategy sheet in plain view. I don't refer to it much but when I do, having it out makes things easy because all I have to do is glance at it. I also recommend practice. There are many video poker games on the internet that will let you know when you are making a strategy mistake. It really helps your game. When I first starting practicing with a strategy sheet, I was really surprised how many strategy mistakes I made. Practice really helped cut down on my mistakes.
This is the one I use when I do bother to practice (shameless plug for the Wiz):
https://wizardofodds.com/play/video-poker/
December 15th, 2013 at 11:43:03 PM
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If you're a tourist with a strategy sheet nobody minds too much. You're not there long enough to continually get an advantage. Once you start hitting 3+ royals some employees start to get suspicious and may not be as nice as they used to be. If you're using a strategy sheet they might make some ruckus about cheating.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
December 16th, 2013 at 3:59:44 AM
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Really? You went from bashing VP to now wanting to buy strategy cards. Perhaps you should apologize to the VP players. It may be to difficult to admit you may have been wrong.Quote: tournamentkingThank you. I do want to learn the game better for the future so I'll invest in a set of cards and keep the phone in my pocket.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
