Vegas: Pai Gow tile trip

Just spent a few days in Vegas playing tiles. I stayed at the Venetian because a friend got a deal on a room. HUGE hotel, and pretty nice. I heard Harrah's was the place to be for low-limit tiles, so that's where I did 90% of my gaming. Luckily it was right next door to the Venetian. Here's my reviews and observations of where I played:

Harrah's: There was one table on the main casino floor for tiles, but it was in a pretty high traffic area. I don't know if there was one in the high limit room, but I don't think so. When I first got there Thursday afternoon the minimum was $25. I played for several hours that day at $25 a hand. Friday morning I went over there about 9 or 9:30 and the minimum was $15. The minimum was raised to $25 maybe about 11 o'clock, but I was allowed to stay at $15 until I left a little after noon. I played off and on that day, till late at night (well, 11-12pm is late for me, haha). Saturday morning I went over there for one last session of a few hours, and the table minimum was $25. At one point I was told by a dealer that the minimum is $15 more often Monday - Wednesday, but it looks like it's at least $15 in the mornings Thursday and Friday.

The dealer's at Harrah's were all super nice and friendly and in some cases quite talkative. They were all more than happy to offer advice on the house way and even advice about what might happen if you set your hand in a non-house way. When I played alone or with my friend I/we tried to bank every other hand, and you were allowed to physically cut the tiles and set them up for delivery how you wanted. They had a list on the table of a dozen or so different delivery styles, as well as a card of tile rankings and basic rules of play that was very well done, I thought. The table was completely full Friday night and Saturday morning, and both times I was the only non-Asian. My overall experience of playing tiles at Harrah’s was very positive. I played for a total of probably 13-15 hours over two and a half days here, and the time just flew by.

Venetian: This is where we had a room, but I didn’t do much gaming here. They had one tile table on the main casino floor, but it was kind of off in a corner facing a wall. I went by there Thursday evening I think it was, and the table was empty and the minimum was $25. I played for about an hour before leaving. The dealers seemed really cold and robotic. Not exactly rude, but almost like they didn’t want to be there. They did let you handle the tiles and set up for delivery when banking, but they didn’t have a list of styles. My friend said he went by later and got a rule sheet for all the games and he said it was pretty good, but I haven’t seen it yet. I’d play here if it was the only game in town, but I won’t be coming back as long as Harrah’s has a table. Oh, I guess the only advantage is they only charged $1 for commission on a $25 bet, whereas Harrah’s charged $1.25. I went by here again Saturday morning, and the table was closed.

Palazzo: This casino is right next to the Venetian. I didn’t play here but I just wanted to point out that they do have one tile table. It was way off in a corner and it was closed when I went by. I didn’t see any signs indicating what the minimum was, either.

The Linq: I guess this casino is pretty new. I walked through it twice and didn’t see a tile game anywhere, so if they had one it’s well-hidden.

Lucky Dragon: I heard so many negative things about this casino but we still wanted to check it out. It is a super tiny casino right near the Stratosphere. It looked pretty nice and clean, just really small, and almost completely empty. There was one tile table and the minimum was $15 on a Friday afternoon. We played for maybe 20 minutes just to say we played tiles there, and then left. The dealer wasn’t too talkative, but he seemed a little less standoffish than the Venetian dealers. The pit boss seemed pretty nice, though. We banked once and were allowed to physically handle the tiles and set up for delivery. I didn’t hate this place as much as the reviews would lead me to believe; it just felt kind of sad and empty. I wouldn’t go out of my way to play here, but it’s probably one of the few $15 tile games in town, so if you're a low-rolling tile player, it's not a bad option.

General impressions: All of the casinos allowed you to physically handle the tiles when banking. I’m only mentioning that because I had heard that some casinos don’t allow you to do that – maybe the ones in AC? I don’t know… Of all the dealers I had, I’d say maybe 70% were Asian, and the rest were white. Surprisingly, the white dealers seemed to know the game slightly better than the Asian dealers. This seems to be kind of a "higher-rolling" game. Even thought the minimum was $25 (which is what I stuck to), almost everyone else I saw play was betting at least $50-$100 a hand, and I saw several players consistently betting $200-$300 a hand, with bet spreads of $200-$1000. I know that's not outrageous for Vegas, but it's a lot to me, haha...

Playing with a table full of Asians is super fun. They really get into it. I didn’t feel like I was being excluded or shunned for being a young(ish) white guy, so if they were talking shit about me in Chinese it didn’t show. I guess when you’re co-banking as a table against the dealer, it’s not uncommon for the tiles to be split up between two people to look at. I wasn’t aware of that practice/etiquette, but it was fun and got more people involved in the excitement. Also, Asians have some kind of superstition/system for when to bank, but I’m not sure what it is. One time I tried to bank and the whole table was like, “No! Don’t bank, don’t bank…if you’re banking we’re not playing this hand.” You have to wait until the house loses/wins so many times or something. I forgot what the logic was. Of course when I was playing by myself I banked as often as possible, but it was still fun to just go along with the superstitions.

They also did stuff like jump around to different spots on the table, I guess to try and improve their luck. They would also take the “reserved” tile and put it on a certain spot if they thought that spot was bad luck. When they did bank, they usually had one delivery style they stuck to that was their favorite. I mean, I did that, too, so I guess it’s not unusual. Also, if it looked like a spot was “lucky,” it wasn’t uncommon for 2 or 3 people to have a bet on that one spot, as well as their own spot.

I put in a solid 15 hours or so of tiles in about 2 ½ days, and had a blast. However, I never saw the minimum go above $25 (maybe it does Saturday night?), and a lot of times the tables were empty, and in some cases closed, even on a weekend. That doesn’t give me confidence for the future of Pai Gow tiles in Vegas, so I guess play it while the playing’s good. I certainly tried to do my part!

EDIT: Also, I kept track of play for most of my time so I could see how many hands an hour were played. When I was alone or the table was mostly empty, it averaged about 24-25 hands an hour. With a packed table, it got down to about 18 hands an hour.

Thanks.

I tried to study Pai Gow Tiles but couldn't make Heads or Tails of it at all. Couldn't even figure it out in some rough manner. If I were a spectator, I'd be woefully unable to figure out anything but who must have won.

I hope you wound up in the Plus Column.

I guess with only one hour of play at The Venetian they didn't decide to comp you for your room/meals(if any). As I understand it, The Palazzo is a slightly lower-class Venetian as far as the customers go, but is actually The Venetian itself as far as the Gaming Board goes, since there is only one license involved.

Since its an Asian game, I would 'expect' it to be also available in the high limit rooms which these days seem to be very much still filled with Asians. Craps seems to be the only game wherein High Rollers have to go to the regular casino floor. Of course, for anyone named FleaStiff, High Limit rooms are merely an academic interest.

Quote: FleaStiff

I hope you wound up in the Plus Column.

I completely forgot to mention this... by the time I left I was down about $130 overall. But that's with 15 hours of play at $25 a hand, so I don't think that's too bad at all. The most I was ever down at any one time was $200, and the most I was up was maybe around $150.

Thanks for the report. I didn't know the Lucky Dragon had a tiles game. Will look more carefully for it my next visit.

Quote: FleaStiff

Thanks.

I tried to study Pai Gow Tiles but couldn't make Heads or Tails of it at all. Couldn't even figure it out in some rough manner. If I were a spectator, I'd be woefully unable to figure out anything but who must have won.

I'm in the same boat as you.

I love Pai Gow Poker.

I downloaded an app on my phone to learn tiles and that helped a little, but I still don't have the confidence to sit down at a table and feel like I'd have a clue what to do...

Quote: FleaStiff

...I tried to study Pai Gow Tiles but couldn't make Heads or Tails of it at all. Couldn't even figure it out in some rough manner. If I were a spectator, I'd be woefully unable to figure out anything...

It's a great game to master, I admit it takes a while but hopefully here are a few tips so you can at least understand what the players are doing most of the time.

(1) Realizing the Tiles can be considered as normal dominoes (sometimes using identical ones from two sets).
(2) It's easier to think of the 16 ranks of tiles in groups of fours, arranged as a row of 2 sets of 4 above a lower row of 2 sets.
(3) Understanding the principles of Baccarat, trying to get to 9 by adding two tiles to get a total and ignoring the 10s part; and Pai Gow of setting two hands Low and High.
(4) There are some quirky parts of the game you will need to learn sometime (Pairs, Wongs, Gongs, Hi9, GeeJoon).

(1)
The tiles can be considered as the following dominoes:
6-6 6-6 6-5 6-5 6-4 6-4 6-3 6-2 6-1 6-1
5-5 5-5 5-4 5-3 5-2 5-1
4-4 4-4 4-3 4-2 4-1
3-3 3-3 3-2 3-1 3-1
2-2 2-2 2-1
1-1 1-1
The only one that isn't obviously the same is the 3-3 which looks like ..:..

Note there are two of some tiles (e.g. 6-6) so these can be considered as a normal pair. There are only one of some tiles and these are grouped into pairs - e.g. the two ways to get nine 6-3 and 5-4 form a pair.

(2) Within each set of four the dominoes are in usually in number order, sadly you just have to learn the highest five.
(a) 1-2 or 2-4 : these are the two Gee Joon tiles and can be used as a 3 or 6.

(b) 6-6 [Teen]
(c) 1-1 [Day]
(d) 4-4 [High 8]

(e) 1-3 [High 4]
(f) 5-5 3-3 2-2 {these are all the other pairs left over in descending order; apart from Gee Joon there are two of each tile in the top row). You will need to know the 3-3 is called Cheung as this is used in House Ways.

(g) 6-5 6-4 6-1 5-1 {these are in numerical order and there are two of each tile}
(h) 9 8 7 5 - these are formed from two different tiles (6-3 5-4; 5-3 6-2; 5-2 4-3; 4-1 3-2)

You will sometimes see references like Hi8 Lo6, these are saying whether it's the higher 8-tile (4-4) or one of the lower tiles (5-1) - note 4-2 is not considered a "6".

(3) Playing Baccarat
Except for some special hands (Pairs, Wongs, Gongs) the scoring is as in Baccarat. The player aims to make two hands, one Low and the other High. So the player might have a choice whether to play 0/9 (Low=0, High=9) or 4/5. The former hopes the Hi will beat the dealer and create a standoff, while the 4/5 hopes to win both at the risk of losing both. Most decisions are whether to make the best Hi or best Lo.

(4) Pairs, Wongs, Gongs
Most hands are scored 0 to 9, however some hands rank higher.
Pairs are two identically ranked tiles; a beginner I found it easy to forget about dissimilar pairs. The easiest to remember are the two Gee Joon tiles or any two tiles totaling 5 or 9. The low 8 can be remembered as they are both white or "easy", and the two Lo 7's are 5-2 4-3 rather than the 6-1. There are sometimes when you split a pair into two good hands (e.g. 4-4 4-4 5-5 6-5 = 8/9).

Wongs, Gongs and Hi9 use a 6-6 or 1-1 tile with a 9 8 or 7 tile. They rank between pairs and a regular 9.

(5) Ranking (advanced)
The highest hands are pairs, next come Wongs, Gongs and Hi9, finally 9 down to 0. If there is a tie the ranks are broken by the higher tile. So 6-6 6-2 beats 1-1 4-4. Thus it pays to look as where your higher tiles go - e.g. with 6-6 4-4 6-4 6-2 you should put your 4-4 with the 6-4 as this creates a higher 8 than using the 6-2 and doesn't affect the High hand.

(6) House Way (advanced)
Usually House Way aims to make two similar hands - this is known as making the Best Low. This is subject to (i) if it could make a High Hand of 7 or more it will never make a low hand less than Cheung 3 but play Best Hi instead (ii) if it can't make 7 then it makes best Low regardless.
(1) Their way of playing pairs is fairly good, so if you have one just play how they do.
(2) The House will always make a Hi9 or better, and then play as above.
(3) Most House Ways have a handful of exceptions (e.g. play 7/9 not 8/8).

(7) Before Playing
There are a few places which explain the above in more detail but it's worth trying the game out with normal dominoes to understand the basics. There are better ways the play but it doesn't cost very much in House Edge to use House Way initially.

Here's some bonus math I just figured up for you guys.... I kept track of all the hands I played at Harrah's on Friday and Saturday.

Total: 254 hands played over ~12 hours.

67 wins for a win rate of 26.4%. Longest winning streak was 4.

75 losses for a lose rate of 29.5%. Longest losing streak was 7.

112 pushes for a push rate of 44%. Longest push streak was 6.

Thanks for the review! Interesting that Palazzo had a table as they told me they didn't when I was there in August.

My experience of the table minimums was much the same as you. I stayed at the Venetian as well and gave 90%+ of my action there. Was $25 table the whole time from Wed night to Sat morning. I was comped 1 of my nights on the back of maybe 10hrs play at approx $100 average bet.

I also played Wynn ($50 thurs morning), Harrahs ($25 thurs lunch), Paris (from memory was $50 thurs afternoon), Bellagio ($25 thurs afternoon) & Caesars ($100 in high limit room thurs early evening).

Thanks for the trip report. The last three years that I've gone to Vegas, I have been playing the tiles. I do tend to play mostly at Harrah's also. I've had some good games at Aria. If I remember correctly, they don't charge the quarters on a $25 bet, so you save slightly on the commission. The only issue that I have with Harrah's is that it does get smoky in there. Next time you go try MGM. I've had mixed experiences there. The last time I went there were beginners at the table and the dealer was very nice and patient. I was surprised to hear that Paris had a $50 table. They are usually lower than that. Although, that table isn't consistently open like the one at Harrah's. If you are adventurous, go to the Palace Station. It is off the strip. But, they have the lowest amounts in town.

Quote: Aussie

Caesars ($100 in high limit room thurs early evening).

I'd love to play tiles in a high limit room someday, especially at Caesar's. Is $100 the usual minimum in high limit rooms, or does it go higher?

Quote: TigerWu

I completely forgot to mention this... by the time I left I was down about $130 overall. But that's with 15 hours of play at $25 a hand, so I don't think that's too bad at all. The most I was ever down at any one time was $200, and the most I was up was maybe around $150.

Well, hotel reviews and trip reports often indicate 'the bottom line' but its still up to the individual reviewer to reveal how he did or not. There is never any guarantee that we will have similar results. I don't know about booze but I'd imagine you probably enjoyed a bit of something while at the table even if it was just orange juice.
I expect you will get a more interesting mailer from Harrahs than from the Venetian/Palazzo, though neither will be likely to spring for airfare or anythng serious like that. At my recollection of the current Venetian room rate 106 is a likely M-Th rate, and often if you pay for M thru W, they will throw in TH for you. So my practice of "Play Where You Stay" would not have been worth all that much anyway.

The Venetian, as many casinos, offers formal lessons at various slow times. I recall that I caught the tail end of a craps lecture and the dealer/instructor who recognized me was surprised to see me there. One thing that I did benefit from is that The Venetian has this one Guidebook/Map brochure that gives a thumbnail review of a wide variety of games, I liked that as it made good snacktime reading and was better than dealing with the inhouse TV channel's lessons that I found annoying. The brochure is available at the various desks and at the free lessons.

Quote: TigerWu

I'd love to play tiles in a high limit room someday, especially at Caesar's. Is $100 the usual minimum in high limit rooms, or does it go higher?

Caesars was the only place I saw tiles in the high limit although admittedly I didn't wander in to many. I believe this table is the only one they have. I'd say $100 would be pretty standard.

I was in town playing some Tiles this weekend too -- was awesome. I didn't know there were so many games north of Paris so I ended up playing at Paris, Bellagio and Aria.

Is it common, say, if you're in town, to ask around here and see if anyone's up for playing? Nobody I know has any real interest in the game and its tough to get people interested that aren't familiar because it takes the time to learn.... Everyone would rather play Pai Gow Poker instead. :)

Was also cool bc I actually hit the second-biggest hand I've ever had and was killing it making $25-35 bets for a couple hours at Bellagio and Paris. Felt like the Nick Pappagorgio of Chinese dominoes. LOL.

Thanks for the trip report. Was a great read.