Gaming Network dissolved

Gaming Network, Inc., the Las Vegas based corporation that licensed the "Lucky Lucky" blackjack side bet, has dissolved:

Details from NV Secretary of State

This should show how tough the business can be, given that at one point in just the last 2 years they had over 500 tables with their Lucky Lucky bet. Now DEQ has the North American rights to Lucky Lucky.

DEQ's president, Earle Hall, stated: “While the average lease price of blackjack felt side bets are usually lower than that of our current product lines, this segment is very attractive because of the much larger volumes of potential sales." This comment nicely summarizes the challenge in building a business model around side bets alone.

In case you're wondering where you may have heard of them before, all my videos were shot at their offices. At this point, I don't think they would be mad if I said that business didn't seem to be going too well for them at the time.

Quote: Wizard

At this point, I don't think they would be mad if I said that business didn't seem to be going too well for them at the time.

why was it not going well? Were placements down?

Any idea how much profit they make from each felt?

I always thought that once you got it into the casino, the rest was easy.

Perhaps they had too many pies in the oven.

Gaming Equipment and Supplies > Game Development > Table Games > Marketing and Consulting
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Gaming Equipment and Supplies > Game Development > New Game Distribution
Work with individuals and companies to assist getting their games prepared for the casino operator so they may be placed on the gaming floor. We offer the games: 2 Fisted Poker 21, Instant 18, Three Card Blackjack, 3 Card Hold'em, Shanghai Poker, Bonus Acey Deucey, Texas Hold'em Plus Deluxe, Vegas Hi-Low and many others.

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Casino in house promotions associated with gaming areas.

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Quote: teliot

This comment nicely summarizes the challenge in building a business model around side bets alone.

Agree Eliot.....Gaming Network just never had a premium game that seemed to gain traction. I am not sure why as with 500 tables in play of Lucky Lucky, even assuming a low lease rate of $100 per month (and my guess is that several years ago they were getting more than that), you are still talking about $600,000 of recurring revenue that ought to be a good enough baseline to develop a premium game that is a success. I am just not sure they were laser focused on table games and seemed to be spending a lot of energy on media & marketing consulting, doing interviews, trying their hand at adding some technology to the mix (some of which was DEQ technology), etc. When I saw Lucky Lucky change hands with the DEQ announcement a month ago or so, I kind of figured these guys were done.

DEQ has EZ Bacc and EZPGP and are able to add technology that is internally developed to those games as well as jackpot networking, mystery bonusing, etc. They are licensed in 50 jurisdictions. They have infrastructure to add games to their existing two premium games and leverage their bonusing technology as well. In my opinion, this company is well positioned.

SMI clearly has Roger internally developing games along with a current stable of premium games that is second to none. SMI has technology to add to the mix including shufflers, all their iTechnology, etc. Now getting more in to electronic games and slots.....SMI is becoming a behemoth. I should have recognized this and bought some stock when it broke thru the $12 resistance area. I may have to break down and invest in Roger at the $15 level, if I can pick some stock up at that price.

Galaxy has some mainstays in Emperor's Challenge and Lucky Ladies (but again, both of these are mainly side bet types). I think their acquisition of Bonus Craps was a good one....that to me is better than the Fire Bet, but still just a side bet. Not so sure about 21+3 as the title is older, but has good market share in the Mississippi, Missouri, Louisiana market as I understand it (again, really just a premium side bet). If they could just get Texas Shootout or Deuces Wild to gain some more traction. Even KoKoMo Stud, albeit a Carribean Stud derivative, seems like it ought to get some installs. There is potential at Galaxy, but the debt load there is quite an albatross.

Quote: WizardofEngland

why was it not going well? Were placements down?

Any idea how much profit they make from each felt?

I always thought that once you got it into the casino, the rest was easy.

That's where the hard part begins....
Resource Management, and management style and abilities, may have played a role.

Quote: Paradigm

assuming a low lease rate of $100 per month (and my guess is that several years ago they were getting more than that)

I believe they were getting about $30 per table per month. That is based on a conversation I had with them about 2 years ago. I think for Stations they gave a bulk discount making it even cheaper.

Eliot, I saw your Three Card Blackjack on their product list. Whom are you with next?

Quote: teliot

I believe they were getting about $30 per table per month. That is based on a conversation I had with them about 2 years ago. I think for Stations they gave a bulk discount making it even cheaper.

One casino told me they paid $30 K for SMI's side bet pack (include 5 or 6 or more side bets) for unlimited number of tables AND perpetual uses. Who wants to pay for new side bets?

Quote: teliot

I believe they were getting about $30 per table per month. That is based on a conversation I had with them about 2 years ago. I think for Stations they gave a bulk discount making it even cheaper.

Wow....that is less than I would have guessed for a bet like Lucky Lucky. I can see that for Lucky Ladies or other "$1 and a prayer" super high HE wagers, but I would have assumed that the level of play on Lucky Lucky with an approx. 24% hit rate and a HE below 3% would have been higher and therefore commanded a higher lease rate.

Quote: UCivan

Who wants to pay for new side bets?

I guess you better be able to prove that your side bet will have a higher than normal participation rate and it can move the hold needle significantly in order to justify a lease rate that makes the owner any money. Without tracking devices to monitor participation, this is a tough sell to a customer.

I don't know about other states, but in WA state games like Spanish 21 usually cost around $500 per month, per table. You can get discounts if you have more of one company's games in each location. Some games are higher cost, though. To have a game like Ultimate Texas Holdem with the progressive jackpot option, you are looking to be around $1500-$2000 per month. Of course with our limit of 15 tables per casino, I don't know if the discounts could go as low as $30/month in casinos that have hundreds of tables.

Quote: brianparkes

I don't know about other states, but in WA state games like Spanish 21 usually cost around $500 per month, per table.

That's for GAMES. And often, the new games come bundled with side bets.

Side bets by themselves carry a smaller price tag.

As the inventor of the Poker For Roulette Side Bet, the details in this thread of just how much smaller, is quite discouraging.

It may explain why, after several somewhat encouraging email exchanges I had with ShuffleMaster regarding changes I am planning, their final response was, in short, "The risk-reward equation is tilted too much towards the former." Sigh....

Quote: teliot

Now DEQ has the North American rights to Lucky Lucky.

Any way of finding out who now has rights to Texas Hold-'em Plus Deluxe?

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Any way of finding out who now has rights to Texas Hold-'em Plus Deluxe?

IANAL, but I am proceeding with Three Card Blackjack as if the contract I have with them is now dissolved as well. I am assuming that the rights revert to the licensor. There is no language in my contract with GN to cover this situation.

Quote: teliot

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Any way of finding out who now has rights to Texas Hold-'em Plus Deluxe?

IANAL, but I am proceeding with Three Card Blackjack as if the contract I have with them is now dissolved as well. I am assuming that the rights revert to the licensor. There is no language in my contract with GN to cover this situation.

IANAL, "I am not at liberty (to say)"?

Quote: Paradigm

Not so sure about 21+3 as the title is older, but has good market share in the Mississippi, Missouri, Louisiana market as I understand it (again, really just a premium side bet).

I saw a few casinos in Vegas with 21+3 but it was on single-deck with a graduated paytable for better hands. Of the many casinos I went to, only Cannery has the same 9-1 standard paytable that is found in most of the Midwest casinos.

I was also in Chicago this weekend and saw Harrah's Joliet (in Illinois) installed the game. The layout is a bit too flashy, IMO, which may explain why people weren't playing it. Same with Ameristar in Council Bluffs, where they installed the game on the Lucky Ladies table. Despite this, I noticed even at casinos that have had it forever that people aren't playing it like they used to. I wonder how much longer the game has before it starts to die out.

I am going to miss that craps table featured in Wizard's video on how to play craps, which featured a Hard-10 roll paying 2-to-1. 5&5 is my lucky roll.

Quote: teliot

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Any way of finding out who now has rights to Texas Hold-'em Plus Deluxe?

IANAL, but I am proceeding with Three Card Blackjack as if the contract I have with them is now dissolved as well. I am assuming that the rights revert to the licensor. There is no language in my contract with GN to cover this situation.

I wonder if your casino customers for Three Card Blackjack are still mailing their monthly royalties to GN.

Quote: RoyalBJ

I wonder if your casino customers for Three Card Blackjack are still mailing their monthly royalties to GN.

If GN received any royalties for 3CBJ, I never saw a dime of it.

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Quote: teliot

Now DEQ has the North American rights to Lucky Lucky.

Any way of finding out who now has rights to Texas Hold-'em Plus Deluxe?

I hope that game gets picked up somewhere. Of all the poker variants out there, I have it on good authority that the mathematician behind it was of the highest degree...

Quote: CRMousseau

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Quote: teliot

Now DEQ has the North American rights to Lucky Lucky.

Any way of finding out who now has rights to Texas Hold-'em Plus Deluxe?

I hope that game gets picked up somewhere. Of all the poker variants out there, I have it on good authority that the mathematician behind it was of the highest degree...

Really? I have been advised to keep my hand on my wallet when in the company of that mathematician !

Quote: buzzpaff

Really? I have been advised to keep my hand on my wallet when in the company of that mathematician !

Did they also tell you to make sure you still had your ring on after shaking hands?

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Quote: teliot

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Any way of finding out who now has rights to Texas Hold-'em Plus Deluxe?

IANAL, but I am proceeding with Three Card Blackjack as if the contract I have with them is now dissolved as well. I am assuming that the rights revert to the licensor. There is no language in my contract with GN to cover this situation.

IANAL, "I am not at liberty (to say)"?

I prefer never to start any sentence with I ANAL, but I am pretty sure he really means "I am not a lawyer".

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Quote: teliot

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Any way of finding out who now has rights to Texas Hold-'em Plus Deluxe?

IANAL, but I am proceeding with Three Card Blackjack as if the contract I have with them is now dissolved as well. I am assuming that the rights revert to the licensor. There is no language in my contract with GN to cover this situation.

IANAL, "I am not at liberty (to say)"?

I prefer never to start any sentence with I ANAL, but I am pretty sure he really means "I am not a lawyer".

Of course. Why didn't I think of that?

I wrote to them asking about buying their gaming tables, as seen in my videos, but didn't get a reply. In this kind of situation what is supposed to happen to them? If anyone hears of a public auction, please let me know.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Quote: teliot

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Any way of finding out who now has rights to Texas Hold-'em Plus Deluxe?

IANAL, but I am proceeding with Three Card Blackjack as if the contract I have with them is now dissolved as well. I am assuming that the rights revert to the licensor. There is no language in my contract with GN to cover this situation.

IANAL, "I am not at liberty (to say)"?

I prefer never to start any sentence with I ANAL, but I am pretty sure he really means "I am not a lawyer".

It's another case where the power of spacing and punctuation saves an acronym from becoming some Asimovian confession of uptightness.

Quote: Paradigm

Agree Eliot.....Gaming Network just never had a premium game that seemed to gain traction. I am not sure why as with 500 tables in play of Lucky Lucky, even assuming a low lease rate of $100 per month (and my guess is that several years ago they were getting more than that), .......

With $30 per month, not $100, then after 3-6 month free trial, GN has a revenue of $15,000 per month. GN has 1-2 full time and 1+ part time, a total of 3+ headcounts on the payroll. Taking away trade shows, marketing, etc, living merely on Lucky Lucky would be a stretch.

Quote: UCivan

Living merely on Lucky Lucky would be a stretch.

Yes, a stretch, and a sure and quick road to insolvency. That is why they aggressively tried to develop other income streams. From what I understand, those included marketing a selection of table games and side bets, a video production facility, a relationship with DEQ, a "Vegas" channel (I don't know the details), a host of other ideas -- they always seemed to have more ideas than time, and at least one disgruntled venture capitalist.

Quote: teliot

That is why they aggressively tried to develop other income streams. From what I understand, those included marketing a selection of table games and side bets,....

Sounds like that is where they should have stopped the list......isn't it hard enough to just do table games & side bets well?

It is going to be ironic if 3 Card BJ ends up in another distributors hands and starts gaining traction.

Quote: Paradigm

It is going to be ironic if 3 Card BJ ends up in another distributors hands and starts gaining traction.

3CBJ is a perfect example of a game that would have been very successful if the math gods were kind. Sometimes the rules for a game write themselves, then the math forces the inventor to change the game to make the math work. In the case of 3CBJ, I could find no solution that allowed the right rules to stand, and two variations of the wrong rules failed in the market. The perfect game had the dealer turn one card face up, to qualify on 17, and to have the Ante bet pay 1-to-1 if the dealer didn't qualify. It turned out I could have any 2 of 3 of those things, but not all 3.

Did the variation where no dealer card was exposed, dealer qualified on 17 and Ante bet paying 1 to 1 if dealer didn't qualify fail in the market?

Quote: Paradigm

Did the variation where no dealer card was exposed, dealer qualified on 17 and Ante bet paying 1 to 1 if dealer didn't qualify fail in the market?

That variation was in the WA market in 2006/2007. It got placed in over 10 casinos. It was also placed at the Augustine Casino in CA. I believe the qualifier was 18. This version failed.

So as not to hijack Switch's thread on Free Bet, what is going to happen to GN's installs that are currently in place.

UCiv indicated that Three Card Hold'em is still in place at Golden Nugget.

Texas Hold'em Plus Deluxe was supposedly at NYNY, Palace Station & Sunset Station all installed within the last year. I saw it at the Golden Nugget last NOvember.

Are these tables still on the floor? Seems like they are ripe to be replaced if the game backer has been dissolved.