Pai Gow Poker Video

You guys were pretty brutal on my last video, so I'm apprehensive about going back in the lion's den. However, the second installment in my video series is ready on pai gow poker. With this one we meet our friend PaiGowDan, whom we know so well here.

Okay, let me have it.

Oh oh....I'm scared (seriously).....I gotta take a look.

Quote: Wizard

You guys were pretty brutal on my last video

I realize now you have no plans to go back and re-do these. My first reaction, outside of video quality, is that for this particular one, you are launching a little more into intermediate level than you [might] realize. It really is a rapid progression into deeper strategy without any comfort level for beginners being established, IMO. In future videos my personal vote is for more beginner stuff. For example, you might more emphasize that it is OK here to completely pick up the cards, a difference from most games. Just more basic stuff. Perhaps you decided against it for this video. It is good for someone who has played before, but not much or without any idea what they were doing, to get some strategy.

PS: there is a lovely view

I didn't notice--- were Dan and the Wiz in the video?

Serious critique- the cards were too small for me to see.... and I agree with odious---- definitely not easy for a beginner to pick up...

Quote: SOOPOO

I didn't notice--- were Dan and the Wiz in the video?

At least it has one positive quality.

That is a fair point about going too fast and the cards being too small. I've always said this project was a dry run. There is already talks of redoing everything, probably in the summer.

I didn't have a chance yet to listen, but I watched/scanned thru some of it.

You need more lighting and better camera angles. Too often Dan had his back to the camera. I mean he was doing the right thing by looking at you while talking to you, but there should have been a camera over the model's shoulder to get those shots.

Way too many times Dan had the bored look with his chin on his hand type of thing. I seriously doubt Dan ever does that when he's dealing. In fact, Dan's hands were all over the place. I think part of the reason he's doing it is because he's seated. As a result, he's forgetting that he's a dealer and has become a participant. Get rid of Dan's chair.

And SooPoo is right about the cards. But not necessarily larger - just easier to see.
Run down to Spinetti's or Gambler's Superstore. Get "Low Vision" cards.

1. Show the Banker puck being moved around the table.
Explain the Banker option in the beginning of the video, not the end.

2. Explain who gets the first hand and how that is determined.

3. Emphasize that the five card hand MUST be higher than the two card hand.
If it is not, you forfeit your hand.

4. Show the hands super imposed(?) like you did with your balloon comments.
This would give the viewer a better understanding of what the cards are and how you set them.

OK. I'm watching, and commenting while I watch.


Turn off or cover the electronic items in the background. OK, one of them is adverting the dragon bet, and maybe the company that is allowing you to use the room wants that seen, so I'll let it go. But there is also an electronic scroll display behind the model that we really don't need to have there to distract us.

The model is a professional. When she's not actively involved, setting her cards, her arms sit on the rail, fingers intertwined. She doesn't move. OK, she fidgets a little, but just a little.

I don't have to tell you about the errors do I? OK, you "fixed" them with the little text bubbles, but it's still no good.

You never specified that the low hand must RANK lower than the high hand. In fact, particularly when considering the other errors, one might think that, because the low hand is placed above the high hand, that you actually did screw up and are calling them by the wrong name.

There's one point where we can hear Dan counting out cards for the next hand. The cards should be pre-set. You're not in a casino. You're not risking money. It's OK if you rig the game for dramatic / educational purposes.

What you need is SCRIPTING.

I don't mean word for word, but have the cards pre-selected, and know what they are going to be and how they are going to be split, but also know what the challenge is on each hand so you know what to discuss when you see the cards.

On the third (fourth?) hand, Dan gets the joker and says he has "4 diamonds with the joker". I immediately thought that meant he could make a flush. I had to watch in slow motion to realize that he meant 4 diamonds if you count the joker as a diamond. He should have said he has "3 diamonds, the joker makes 4, not enough for the flush."

The two-pair point system wasn't adequately described.


I'm sure I can come up with other stuff, but I think I beat you up enough.

Besides, I'm not so sure I could do any better....

Quote: FatGeezus

1. Show the Banker puck being moved around the table.
Explain the Banker option in the beginning of the video, not the end.

I disagree with this. The vast majority of players are not interested in banking. Those that might bank would probably be confused by discussion of it until after they understand the basics of the game.

Quote: jml24

I disagree with this. The vast majority of players are not interested in banking. Those that might bank would probably be confused by discussion of it until after they understand the basics of the game.

1. Banking was downplayed as something that would throw a newbie, and banking is being removed in general use from casino PGP as an unproductive relic of the game in any case. Its ommission for the purposes of this video was appropriate, and was discussed.
2. By sitting down, it did feel more like a home game than a casino game; in any case, and for such a shoot, I wasn't going to stand stiff at "soup Nazi attention" for the demo. ("No Joker for YOU!") Most modern pit crew and dealers aren't that old school anal any longer.
3. The joker was explained as used for "aces, straights, and flushes." Saying "four diamonds with (including) the joker is too short for the flush" does explain its use as another card for the suit;
4. We didn't have a shuffler machine for the shoot. The "7-card packet" aspect was discussed as part of the process was all right. The machine would have helped, but we made do without. It was filmed at Gaming Networks former location at Amelia Earhart Drive.
5. Angela's lovely presence was a fine bonus. It would have been less appealing, (slightly, of course) if it were just me and Mike. Who wants to see a couple of guys, versus two guys and a hot chick?....
6. The shoot could have used a more scripted approach, true, but as a "102" type intro as opposed to a "101" type intro was all right.
It is what it is.

There are always assumptions that have to be made in creating an instructional aid like this. Given the terminology ("pip count," "singleton," etc.) and lack of hand-ranking explanation, I think it's fair to say that this video is aimed at experienced casino players who have never played PGP before.

Given that target audience, I think that this video was excellent. Shorter and more basic might have been a good "101" way to go, and longer and more in depth might have been good to actually teach the game to someone. But for a 15 minute primer, this was a very good effort. I can't imagine a situation where this video plus a couple hours of play wouldn't turn a BJ, 3CP, or UTH player into a proficient PGP player.

With another 10 minutes, you could certainly get into more nuanced rules:
-the ramifications of fouling a hand
-splitting trip aces
-mixed hands (straight w/2 pair, etc)
-EZ PGP
-fully wild jokers
-progressives & side bets (and why to usually avoid them)

The only thing I would add in terms of camera angles, is a TOP DOWN view from right above the table to see the cards and watch a hand played out.

Otherwise, cool video!

On the 4th hand, The Wiz had abet out but was not shown setting his hand. Nor was his bet settled. I assume this was due to editing. But if it was NOT, than Dan should be suspended for 30 days and the casino fined $10,000. The money should come out of Dan's salary or royalties. As Dan says all too often " RULES ARE RULES" Face will be in Vegas in the near future to view the original tape. He will have handcuffs and is reserching the law in Nevada for a citizen's arrest.
RULES ARE RULES !

I would like to see and overhead camera shot when talking about the hands.

No disrespect meant, but if Angela were not in the video, would so many people be clammoring for an overhead camera ?

Quote: rdw4potus

Given that target audience, I think that this video was excellent.

Thank you. I'm not saying I agree, but my self esteem was in ruins after DJ's post, so I needed that.

Quote: buzzpaff

On the 4th hand, The Wiz had abet out but was not shown setting his hand. Nor was his bet settled. I assume this was due to editing.

That was my fault. In an earlier version I set my hand incorrectly. I didn't want to embarrass myself by the mistake, so asked the editor to cut it out. He did the best he could.

About the cards, agreed, if and when I redo them I'll at least have some cards for the visually impaired.

About the comments on camera angles and a script, you seem to be confusing me with a professional director or something. This was done with two cheap video cameras (like $300), two tripods, and no extra lights. We were supposed to have a third camera, but the owner suddenly needed it for a trip to Disneyland that day. Otherwise, that one would have been used for close ups on the cards. We also had a lot of games to get through in just two days. It was entirely improvised. There will be a lot more games coming. The craps alone took hours, and I feel sorry for my editor when he tries to assemble it all together.

Thanks for all the comments, good and bad (but especially the good).

On another topic, my editor split off discussion about Dan's own EZ Pai Gow Poker into a separate video, which is now up and ready to beat up on.

Quote: Wizard

On another topic, my editor split off discussion about Dan's own EZ Pai Gow Poker into a separate video, which is now up and ready to beat up on.

Sneaking this in won't keep DJT from seeing it!

Quote: Wizard

...my self esteem was in ruins after DJ's post....

Sorry about that. But I DID conclude that I'm not sure I can do any better. Does that help?

But seriously, would you REALLY want us to just tell you that it was great, and not tell you the little things that could make it better?

When I said that the production needs scripting, I was somewhat in error. What I meant was it needs rehearsal. And by that I mean what I had said in the prior post: That the cards should be rigged for specific hands, and that you already work thru the hands so that there are no surprises, and so things seem smoother.


For what it's worth, I DO think it's a great idea, and I DO applaud you for the effort. I just feel that I would not be doing you any favors if I noticed problems and didn't say something.

What a great idea to have an introduction to the various games (assuming this is a long term project!) and it is a great video for those who haven't seen it. I agree it would have been better to have been story boarded and scripted - especially since you can cut away after each hand to the dealer and stop the shooting.

I first saw the game at a casino, watched a few hands being played out and then dived in. On ones I didn't know, I asked for "house way" (I think that's a point worth making).


If I was ever making a similar video here's a few ideas (sorry - this comes from my background in making presentations and when we used to have "foils"!).
(a) Mechanics: Dice Roll, dealing 7-cards to each player, someone being the banker (e.g. the "house") [perhaps mentioning that players can sometimes take the bank].

(b) Principles: Joker, Lo Hand, High Hand, Win both to win, Ties go to the dealer, 5% commission (I liked where the $100 was paid out $95).

(c) "House Way", but that player can sometimes do better.
--- Whereas in blackjack Dealer hits 16 and stands on 17s, it would be very wrong to mimic the dealer, better to stand on 12 vs 6.
--- However in Pai Gow using "House Way" when in doubt is not such a bad idea and you can learn exceptions as time goes by.

(d) Setting your hand: working through the obvious examples -- Zip "Pai Gow", Pair, Two Pair, Three Pair, Trips (incl AA A), Straight/Flush, Joker, Full House and say there are other hands that may come up and some exceptions (perhaps show a "House Way" printout). If in doubt you can always ask the dealer to set it "House Way".

(e) Two Pair Exception when pays not to play "House Way" - I like the explanation of the 9-15 rule.

(f) Advanced plays:
(I) Taking the bank - worth doing if playing alone, chancy if not
(II) Where "House Way" way needs tweaking - e.g. Full House AK exception, Joker options, Quads, Five Aces....

(g) Summary - if in doubt play "House Way" and add the 9-15 "Two Pair" rule.


btw you mentioned playing Three Pair differently, is there a case for this?

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: Wizard

On another topic, my editor split off discussion about Dan's own EZ Pai Gow Poker into a separate video, which is now up and ready to beat up on.

Sneaking this in won't keep DJT from seeing it!

Oh, I'll see it all right. And I'm sure I'll have a comment or two.

But those comments won't come soon.

I'm at work. I can WATCH it, but no audio. I had to wait until lunchtime to listen to the other video, and made my comments then.

From work, I go directly to the venue for my poker league. And they don't have WiFi, so I won't be able to listen or comment until midnight or tomorrow morning.

So does anyone else wants to bash it and save me the trouble?.....



Mike, seriously, I may attack the production or result, but I will never attack the effort or intention. When I say the things I've said, I say it as a friend.

I've never played and have no idea how it
works. The video can't be for beginners
because I have no idea what you were
talking about.

Why was the girl there, all she did was
distract from what you're explaining.
Lighting was uneven when you switched
from camera to camera. One was in focus
and the other was not. Dan looks bored
out of his mind.

Somebody was right when they said you
need scripting and rehearsals. It was
confusing and looks like it was thrown together
as an afterthought.

Hey, you asked. (I thought Dan was 300 pounds
and Somoan. Who was the grey haired guy?)

Quote: Wizard

We were supposed to have a third camera, but the owner suddenly needed it for a trip to Disneyland that day.

Dang, I hear that happens to Speilberg all
the time..

It wasn't until the resolution of the first hand you mentioned how the game pays off. That fact is crucial as a beginners guide. The hand setting while interesting later on doesn't help to have a bunch of "exceptions" early on.

Quote: Wizard

On another topic, my editor split off discussion about Dan's own EZ Pai Gow Poker into a separate video, which is now up and ready to beat up on.

A little bit of Mike's Vinegrette :) Paul Newman's Own don't have shit on him! :)

Quote: EvenBob

Why was the girl there, all she did was distract from what you're explaining.

So much for the "one positive quality" I mentioned in the first page of this thread. At least SOOPOO liked her.

Quote: charliepatrick

btw you mentioned playing Three Pair differently, is there a case for this?

Yes. When we did the simulations runs, some hands (a few) were better played where the middle pair on the low side is better than the top pair in rare cases; because low two pairs (6's and less) are so consistently kept together that three pair hands like 884422x may be played as 44/8822x instead of 88/4422x because of facing hands like Ax/7755 and xx/6644x. This may have been a quirk in the sim run, and the edge effected is so small it is not a worthwhile pursuit in real-world play. Because common practice now is for players to split low pairs without a king or better, this is greatly nullified anyway.

I liked it. It's much better than the other videos on YouTube. I made a play list of the other ones that I found.

Wiz:

Nice job on the video. Anyone who does anything can be nit-picked apart. Nice job on your 9-15 rule; I play that all the time and i've definitely gotten the better of the house with it.

Would love to see the cards better, but that's already been talked about.

I would put this video as just above beginner level, for all the reasons explained by others. Most beginners have no clue about the dice or the fact that all seven hands are dealt every time. A better explanation of the house way to split two pairs (high, medium, low) would be a nice touch for the more advanced video next time.

Quote: PlayYourCardsRight

Wiz.... Nice job on your 9-15 rule; I play that all the time and i've definitely gotten the better of the house with it.

Gotta give Mike a lot of credit for zeroing in the most important area for really improving Pai Gow play: proper two-pair handling. This makes it a proper "102" level video instead of a dilute "101" video.

Quote: Paigowdan

...884422x may be played as 44/8822x instead of 88/4422x...

Not sure on my maths as it's an approximation HTML page I created quite a few years ago (using old House Way HH HM etc.) but here it is what it says (similar differences if you have the joker 81.79 78.95 77.33 i.e, making it more likely dealer will play 2-pair). It looks as if the difference in the Lo Hand (88.29% to 79.83%) exceeds that of Hi Hand (77.10% to 74.45%), so making the best pair
Probabilities of winning
8S 8D JC 4D 4H 2S 2H 88.285611 74.458346 79.728578
4H 4D JC 8D 8S 2S 2H 79.827870 77.099947 76.925227
2H 2S JC 8D 8S 4D 4H 76.414224 77.176479 75.321006
JC 4D 8S 8D 4H 2H 2S 8.845553 77.099947 42.802252
JC 2H 8S 8D 4H 4D 2S 8.676406 77.176479 42.759039
JC 8S 8D 4H 4D 2H 2S 9.665452 74.458346 41.881980
4H 2S JC 8D 8S 4D 2H 0.104414 34.411782 17.257200
8D 2S JC 8S 4D 4H 2H 1.704601 20.153957 10.920691
8S 4H JC 8D 4D 2S 2H 1.809536 15.150076 8.472952

pair 8's 301717 88.285611
pair 7's 1555194 85.380047
pair 6's 1292317 82.965614
pair 5's 1383795 80.380274
pair 4's 295673 79.827870
pair 3's 1506419 77.013431
pair 2's 320724 76.414224

8&4 6397 77.176479
8&3 34566 77.138214
8&2 6397 77.099947
7&6 187092 76.919201
7&5 187092 76.569657
7&4 34794 76.362382
7&3 187092 76.155107
7&2 34794 75.947834
6&5 194436 75.733699
6&4 36090 75.518353
6&3 194436 75.303008
6&2 36090 75.087661
5&4 37386 75.019024
5&3 201780 74.795608
5&2 37386 74.572192
4&3 38682 74.501132
4&2 7121 74.458346

Quote: Wizard

So much for the "one positive quality" I mentioned in the first page of this thread. At least SOOPOO liked her.

Just to re-iterate a great video, and helps those happy with casinos with an idea of the game and a good introduction to the 9-15 rule. I also agree the girl in red adds a nice quality.

Wiz, here are some thoughts:

1) I think the key is to understand exactly what you are aiming for in creating the videos. This video feels like it is between a "How to Play PGP" video for newbie's and a more advanced PGP strategy video. The production has elements of both but doesn't do a complete job on either.

2) It is easy to find technical issues with any non-professionally completed production (i.e. the two cameras had different levels of focus or resolution, lighting, etc). I don't think there is a way to fix these issues without a bigger investment in production technology which I assume you do not want to make.

3) I would focus on the non-technical critiques listed above. Not being able to see the cards is the one significant one that needs to be addressed. The viewer can't follow along with your discussion of how to set the hands without seeing all 7 cards clearly. The overhead view is critical for this and should be zoomed to only see the hands/wrists & cards of the dealer and players. You will likely need to designate to the player/model and dealer to be sure to open their hand in an area of the layout within the frame of the overhead camera so we can all see what you are talking about when discussing setting the hand.

4) I agree with others, set the hands to create the topics you want to discuss. This seems like it can be easily done with the three hand packets stacked out of view from the camera but within reach for Dan/Dealer.

5) I would follow a natural progression of higher and higher hands. For example the first two player hands could be Pai Gow & One Pair with the dealer hand being a higher Pai Gow hand then the player. Next hand is both players having two pair, one that is split and one that is kept together based on your 9-15 rule (maybe you introduce the Joker as an Ace option in this hand). The next hand is Three of a Kind for each player, one being three Aces using the Joker (you can talk about splitting the three Aces). Next is a straight & flush one using the Joker (you can introduce how Joker can fill flushes and straights as well in this hand), one natural straight/flush. Then you can have two 3 of a kind hands, one that is split and one that isn't. It will be obvious that you are setting hands, but that is OK as the point is for the video to teach, not to be a fair representation of live play.

6) Use your model more to ask questions as she did about the banker. The questions she asks are used as learning nuances that you want to highlight. She was good the one time that she was able to direct the conversation. Use her more......ooopss, I already said that!

7) I didn't notice that "Dan was bored" during the video as I was mostly focused on Wiz as he did most of the talking. Dan did fine when he invited to explain a situation. Mike you did a nice job of transitiioning to you and Dan.

8) I didn't notice a lot of "umms" and "uhhhs" in this video which is usually fairly common in amateur shoots. So you did that well.

8) Watch your background & lit signs in the picture. The scrolling sign I did notice and it was a distraction. The table sign was a bright distraction in the shot with Dan. We can't really read it anyway, so make the sign unlit.

Bottom line......shooting quality how to videos is hard. It is much harder without some scripting or in this case hand setting so you know what is coming next. You have to set the hands!

For dice (i.e. a craps video), I would even consider having your editor cut away on each roll while dice are in the air to a close up of the far end of the table where the dice land. Have a close up of the dice setlling on every combination you want to use and edit that in so you essentially can set the dice result and explain the game in a similar building block of knowledge way.

Quote: Wizard

At least SOOPOO liked her.

I liked her, whats not to like. I kept waiting
for the bikini scene, why did you cut it out?

Quote: PlayYourCardsRight

Nice job on the video. Anyone who does anything can be nit-picked apart.

And I'm the biggest nit picker here.

So I finally saw the second part.

I have only two additional comments, but you of course know the first one.

Rehearsals. It would have prevented you from being surprised that Angela didn't ask about the side bets.

And about those side bets. Sure they are sucker bets, but you didn't say anything else about them!

Quote: DJTeddyBear

And about those side bets. Sure they are sucker bets, but you didn't say anything else about them!

They're only mostly sucker bets. The progressive on most PGP tables has a 55% house edge at the $10,000 jackpot reset value, but a 0% house edge at a jackpot of about $284,000. Last time I was in Vegas, the progressive at the Gold Coast was $324,xxx. Obviously that's still a (very) long shot, but it's + EV!

I would think that it's at least worth mentioning the Fortune bonus (avoid!), progressive (be aware!), and Queen's Dragon (Play EZ PGP!) bets in a followup or re-work of the video.

Quote: Paradigm

7) I didn't notice that "Dan was bored" during the video as I was mostly focused on Wiz as he did most of the talking. Dan did fine when he invited to explain a situation. Mike you did a nice job of transitiioning to you and Dan.

I need to clarify...

I did not mean that Dan was actually bored.

I meant that he didn't know what to do with his hands, he had them all over the place and at some points had his head resting on his hand - a classic bored position, but not necessarily being bored.

MHO

Pai Gow Poker appears to a rather simple game. About 80% of the hands can be sorted by beginners knowing the basic rules. There are some more complex choices in the game that require a more advanced discussion. But those 20% of hands can affect the House edge significantly. Frankly, an interesting discussion about the game as precursor to game-play is in order. The aspects of a pai-gow hand, two-pair splits and Joker Straights/Flush need coverage as important points of the game. A card-interchange method rather than actual play was important *to me* as a rapid teaching tool. Yes, it is important to show how the game is played in real-life. But before you go there, cover the unique aspects of the game first. /MHO

Quote: EvenBob

(I thought Dan was 300 pounds
and Somoan. Who was the grey haired guy?)

That's funny, I had a similar image of Dan.

" That's funny, I had a similar image of Dan. " Amazing what digital enhancement can do !

Quote: Wizard

So much for the "one positive quality" I mentioned in the first page of this thread. At least SOOPOO liked her.

She did a good job. Most people around here are mature enough not to be in 8th grade.

And an overhead camera is specifically to get a better idea for the table and have a closer perspective of what it would like sitting at the table, not to look down someone's shirt *eyeroll*

Quote: YoDiceRoll11

She did a good job. Most people around here are mature enough not to be in 8th grade.

And an overhead camera is specifically to get a better idea for the table and have a closer perspective of what it would like sitting at the table, not to look down someone's shirt *eyeroll*

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... Exit stage left >>>

Quote: 98Clubs

...Pai Gow Poker appears to a rather simple game...an interesting discussion about the game as precursor to game-play is in order...

A good idea that background/history to the basic game is a good start and provides a hook for beginners to add the other info. For instance "Craps" is actually a game between the player and banker but the casino has added all the side bets to it. Also I find it easier to explain Baccarat, and the weird drawing rules, if you deal two cards face down so the bank can only see the player's drawn card and then has to make a decision. It is then easier to understand why the bank makes its decisions.

So the first bit might then show seven cards and deciding whether to make a better Lo Hand or High Hand and that most "House Way" plays are a mathematical based decision (e.g. It isn't obvious to split three Aces - so that's a good one to use.)

I am currently planning to do a video on card counting. Am looking for an actor to portray Dan Lubin as the smiling dealer.

Quote: buzzpaff

I am currently planning to do a video on card counting. Am looking for an actor to portray Dan Lubin as the smiling dealer.

Hey - I would do it, but I would get flack from the dark side at work: ("You did WHAT, Dan ??!! INVOLVED IN A VIDEO TO HELP APs and COUNTERS ??!! - HAVE YOU JOINED THE DARK SIDE??!!")
Just imagine the actor John Hurt (the casino owner from "Owning Mahoney") chewing me out like this.....

Working with Mike was a pleasure, an honor, and just questionable enough :) (- JUST A JOKE, MIKE!!)
And working with Angela....a delight.

Quote: YoDiceRoll11

She did a good job. Most people around here are mature enough not to be in 8th grade.

And an overhead camera is specifically to get a better idea for the table and have a closer perspective of what it would like sitting at the table, not to look down someone's shirt *eyeroll*

I skipped from 7th directly to 9th grade, so I have no personal experience what the maturity level is I am supposed to have as an eighth grader. But seriously, I think the moderately tasteful comments are acceptable. If you asked the model herself why she was selected to be in the video, which of the following answers would SHE give......

1. Mike knows how knowledgable about paigow poker I am, and he wanted someone with my mathematical expertise to assist him.
2. Mike knows I'm hot.

When she reaches her weight goal, I will be disappointed if HotBlonde does not make at least a cameo appearnace in a future video.
Say as a friendly cocktrail waitress.

Quote: jml24

I disagree with this. The vast majority of players are not interested in banking. Those that might bank would probably be confused by discussion of it until after they understand the basics of the game.

100% agree here. I would have suggested making it a second follow up video even just for the banking and never even mentioning it in the first video.


Good video overall. The only significant change I would have suggested would be to emphasize that you are able to ask the dealer what the house way is. I know you mentioned it, I just think it would have been better if it was mentioned more or earlier. I feel many players don't play a game because they feel like they may always do something wrong. In Paigow this issue can be resolved very easily by simply asking the dealer what to do.

I also agree that not many Customers are interested in banking.
Therefore lower the commission from 5% to 2.5%.
EV Trump ACNJ is -2.01% and no banking.