What could a new side bet be sold for.
Quote: heatherI will take you up on that proposition that as long as the amount that we're wagering is greater than one dollar.
That is why I threw in the word "legitimately."
I am with Wizard, I wager 100 to 1 (nobody gives anything), with $100, USD hard currency.Quote: WizardI have a bet idea. If anyone going to G2E next month thinks they can sell a side bet or game for cash, with no math, patent work, or anything, simply a cold idea, I would be willing to bet that nobody would legitimately give you $1 or more for it.
Quote: RoyalBJI am with Wizard, I wager 100 to 1 (nobody gives anything), with $100, USD hard currency.
And the Wizard just lost his bet...
Like the story of the bet about a car not stopping at a stop sign, I think the spirit of Mr. W's wager is the most important thing here ... trying to foil his wager is silly and defeats the intent ... those who would foil the Wiz are the ones he would not want to have a friendly bet with ...Quote: MathExtremistAnd the Wizard just lost his bet...
--Ms. D.
Quote: DorothyGaleLike the story of the bet about a car not stopping at a stop sign, I think the spirit of Mr. W's wager is the most important thing here ... trying to foil his wager is silly and defeats the intent ... those who would foil the Wiz are the ones he would not want to have a friendly bet with ...
--Ms. D.
A game idea might actually get sold. Lord know a gazillion people at G2E will try. To this, a "sold bet" would mean a black-and-white signed agreement with a distributor that provides some - any - up-front money for an idea that has no patent or math at the time. Also know that Stacy/ME, who is willing to take this bet, is a mathematician. Doesn't mean the distributor will get the game out. Let's not make the bet "foilable," cash up front as to be in the agreement. Will Stacy/ME be the mark that wins? Possibly.
Also, Roger Snow is not just an executive, he is a successful game inventor: Crazy 4 Poker, Four Card Poker, Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, etc.
As for Shufflemaster being an 800 pound gorilla, they can no longer "tell" any casino operator what to do or what to buy, nor can they stop other distributors from being successful, as they could a number of years ago. Shufflemaster has to be one of a number of distributors, although the biggest.
- Streak.
- Royal Match.
- Lucky Ladies
- Perfect Pairs
- Match the dealer
For me however, seeing them at ONE casino may indicate that there is a market available for a side bet. Now whether the seller of that side bet received any money remains to be known. For example, In-Between, offerred at a single casino (Sandia).
So, perhaps an argument for selling a side bet might take an alternative route. Yep, you have to get the patent, do the maths, the informational and floor brochures, but most of that is DIY and could be done as a hobby. I think then, you do alot of networking, find a casino and offer them a "unique" side bet just for that casino and give them the information. Offer it for free, baby the game, do the installation and training, and see how it goes.
For me it'd be a labor of love. Keep your day job.
Quote: WizardI have a bet idea. If anyone going to G2E next month thinks they can sell a side bet or game for cash, with no math, patent work, or anything, simply a cold idea, I would be willing to bet that nobody would legitimately give you $1 or more for it.
I'd go double or nothign on my sould but 1) I don't know ho we'd double my soul and 2) I think you'd win.
Unless, of course, you try this method:
1) bet the Wizard $500 you can sell a sucker bet for more than $1
2) Go to the first BJ display and tell the guy "Buy my bet for $1.01 and I'll give you $250 after I collect on my bet."
I don't think I need to go on....
That would be cheating, yes?
Quote: boymimboFor me it'd be a labor of love. Keep your day job.
That is exactly what being a game designer is: having a day time gig and doing it as a labor of love, saying to yourself, "here goes nothing..."
"Casino Game designer" would a ridiculous primary occupation for anyone: Roger Snow is a working business executive, really, Stacy is a gaming consultant in the areas of law and mathematics, I'm a casino dealer, and Switch almost certainly has some career, (education?), etc.
Quote: Nareed2) Go to the first BJ display and tell the guy "Buy my bet for $1.01 and I'll give you $250 after I collect on my bet."
That would be cheating, yes?
Yes, and that wouldn't work, because it wouldn't be a sale, it'd be a conditional exchange. And it would cost him more than $250 for the agreement paperwork.
Quote: Paigowdan"Casino Game designer" would a ridiculous primary occupation for anyone: Roger Snow is a working business executive, really, Stacy is a gaming consultant in the areas of law and mathematics, I'm a casino dealer, and Switch almost certainly has some career, (education?), etc.
Question, do they game distributors employ game designers?
To my fuzzy view of the market it should seem they don't. I mean, why pay a salary and carry that overhead when a sufficient amount of people beat a path to your door all the time?
Quote: NareedQuestion, do they game distributors employ game designers?
To my fuzzy view of the market it should seem they don't. I mean, why pay a salary and carry that overhead when a sufficient amount of people beat a path to your door all the time?
No, they do not, unless employed in some other position where they actually do some other form of productive work at a distributor, like Roger Snow.
There really is no such thing as a full-time occupational game designer whose sole source of income is table game royalty revenue.
I mean, if one or a few games hit big, you retire, or you set up a gaming design company like Derek Webb's Prime Table Games, (which spends a lot of time complaining about Shufflemaster), almost never duplicating your one big success. (Aside from Roger Snow with a plurality of successful games.)
Every game designer looks for a good follow-up. Few get them.
You actually couldn't spend 40 hours a week doing game inventing or game design work, a la Thomas Edison.
First of all, you have to be pumping out an absurd number of ideas - a stream of ideas - to justify full-time. While the industry could support a lot of field trials, all that the industry could support is several new games a year that make it into the dozens of tables; so many new games per year would radically change the make-up of the table games pit on a wide scale. A lot of dealers and casinos had to re-learn and re-tool to support a lot of new games at great expense, so the games would have to do better than existing games, which is very unlikely.
This is because only the popular games that get action can get both momentum and casino pit real estate space. The industry market for new games actually has a limited absorption capacity, so you're only going to see about one new game every several years that makes it above 100 games (- a major success point) to become a mainstay casino product, like Blackjack Switch. Also know that some "mainstay" casino products can die off, like Let it Ride and Carribean stud (slowly), Mini Pai Gow (rapid cash-and-burn), or just linger on life support below 200 tables or so ad infinitum like SuperFun-21. So the number of ideas a game designer can reasonably justify focusing on is the handful of ideas that actually have a shot.
Secondly, with a handful of games, you wouldn't spend all your time on them. You pass of the mathematical work to mathematician, and the legal work to a lawyer. You could write the product description guide, the player information sheet, and design the layout in a week or two with experience. With a few games, this is a couple of months of work, and your probably done for life, if you can retire on one or a couple. Or you can work as a casino executive reviewing new games, like Rob Saucier at Galaxy, Roger Snow at Shufflemaster, Rob Scott at DEQ, or Jeff Voyles or Randy Z. at Gaming Network. Of this group, only Roger and Rob Saucier have personally invented any truly successful new table games.
Quote: boymimboWhat are the successful BJ side bets? These are the only ones that I've seen at multiple casinos. The Wizard lists all of the side bets he's seen and some seem to be unique to a single casino.
- Streak.
- Royal Match.
- Lucky Ladies
- Perfect Pairs
- Match the dealer
For me however, seeing them at ONE casino may indicate that there is a market available for a side bet. Now whether the seller of that side bet received any money remains to be known. For example, In-Between, offerred at a single casino (Sandia).
So, perhaps an argument for selling a side bet might take an alternative route. Yep, you have to get the patent, do the maths, the informational and floor brochures, but most of that is DIY and could be done as a hobby. I think then, you do alot of networking, find a casino and offer them a "unique" side bet just for that casino and give them the information. Offer it for free, baby the game, do the installation and training, and see how it goes.
For me it'd be a labor of love. Keep your day job.
You missed '21+3' which has had considerable success.
Quote: PaigowdanThat is exactly what being a game designer is: having a day time gig and doing it as a labor of love, saying to yourself, "here goes nothing..."
"Casino Game designer" would a ridiculous primary occupation for anyone: Roger Snow is a working business executive, really, Stacy is a gaming consultant in the areas of law and mathematics, I'm a casino dealer, and Switch almost certainly has some career, (education?), etc.
I used to be in the teaching profession but I have relied solely on the income from my games over the last 8/9 years and intend to do so for at least another 5+ years.
Steve Au-Yeung has also done the same.
How many successful games do you NEED to have in the market to have a financially decent living (and fun)? If you great inventors are still working so hard, I would not recommend my children to get into this game design profession.Quote: SwitchI used to be in the teaching profession but I have relied solely on the income from my games over the last 8/9 years and intend to do so for at least another 5+ years.
Steve Au-Yeung has also done the same.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, they do not, unless employed in some other position where they actually do some other form of productive work at a distributor, like Roger Snow.
There really is no such thing as a full-time occupational game designer whose sole source of income is table game royalty revenue.
I figured as much, but it still seems odd. You'd think companies involved in gaming would want to innovate on their field, too.
Imagine if Boeing didn't employ aircraft deisgners. It boggles the mind.
Quote: SwitchI used to be in the teaching profession but I have relied solely on the income from my games over the last 8/9 years and intend to do so for at least another 5+ years.
Steve Au-Yeung has also done the same.
You guys made it to where you don't have to work for someone else to pay for your life's expenses unless you want to.
VERY few get that far.
I might be in that position with EZ Pai Gow at the turn of the year; probably, but not certain. So far, 40 tables, - with not a single casino pulling out the game - is a very good start, but I'm talking only mathcing the same salary plus health insurance. I might continue to work until I am way ahead, if such a thing happens.
Paying bills in a middle-class lifestyle is one thing. Private jets is another. Possibly Derek Webb of Three Card Poker.
It's amazing to get a couple of installs. 100+ requires a monster game.
Quote: NareedI figured as much, but it still seems odd. You'd think companies involved in gaming would want to innovate on their field, too.
Imagine if Boeing didn't employ aircraft deisgners. It boggles the mind.
Not really - Gaming is different. All companies, from casino operators to distributors have table game experts: Jeff Voyles, Rob Scott, Paul Omohundro, etc. That's all that is needed - some who KNOWS what'll work. Very few also have people who've actual made new table games that worked well, but that is not a requirement to have a pulse on a good game.
Quote: WizardI have a bet idea. If anyone going to G2E next month thinks they can sell a side bet or game for cash, with no math, patent work, or anything, simply a cold idea, I would be willing to bet that nobody would legitimately give you $1 or more for it.
The one stipulation that I have on this would be, that provisional patent be allowed. Otherwise the buyer would have no protection.
The bet is interesting. The other condition is that the spirit of the bet cannot be violated. No bs tricks or anything else that undermines the strick spirit of the bet. The price final price should be $200.01 or greater. $200 is the cost of filing a provisional patent.
Quote: AceCrAAckersThe one stipulation that I have on this would be, that provisional patent be allowed. Otherwise the buyer would have no protection.
The bet is interesting. The other condition is that the spirit of the bet cannot be violated. No bs tricks or anything else that undermines the strick spirit of the bet. The price final price should be $200.01 or greater. $200 is the cost of filing a provisional patent.
Utterly reasonable. It protects the game inventor also. So, the criterion is a provisional patent, that's it.
Mike - is this acceptable - a real prop bet offer??
Quote: RoyalBJHow many successful games do you NEED to have in the market to have a financially decent living (and fun)? If you great inventors are still working so hard, I would not recommend my children to get into this game design profession.
I think it depends on what you enjoy. I could go back to teaching and have my 'Switch' revenue generate me a nice added income - however, I chose to continue inventing games so that I could try and use my reputation, along with my contacts, to install new games much more easily.
A successful author doesn't necessarily stop after writing 1 or 2 good books - they use their reputation to help boost sales on their next book even before they have written it. Same goes for songwriters and a lot of professions that rely on 'coming up with ideas'.
Like any other business, you have to be committed, in my opinion, in order to get the best results. My fall down is that I don't live in Vegas as I believe that it hinders my performance. However, I get the benefit of having time off when I want and enjoying the actual work itself (apart from the paperwork, hate that :-) ).
Even if I had 500 tables out I would still look at designing a game if a concept came to mind as I have used the last 10 years getting me to a position whereby I would find it much easier than someone not in the industry - I wouldn't want to waste that advantage if I develop the right game.
I continue to work because it takes a lot of time for a game to come out, and I have no choice but to wait until the game royalty income hits the full salary level. I make about half of my dealer's salary in royalties.
Quote: NareedI figured as much, but it still seems odd. You'd think companies involved in gaming would want to innovate on their field, too.
Imagine if Boeing didn't employ aircraft deisgners. It boggles the mind.
I see much the same in the world of board game design. Very few of the big companies employ their own designers, there's a couple of dozen designers working freelance pumping out ideas and a massive set of amateurs... out of which comes a few good games every year. The companies tend to have the expert developers who know how to take a good idea and turn it into something marketable as a package, smooth of the rough edges and try to make it as a hit. Few board games make a second printing run (and runs are small), and even fewer make the designer a lot of money.
Companies do innovate, but with such a wealth of good ideas coming from a variety of sources, the developers have a full stream of innovation coming in that they don't need to worry about paying one guy to keep up with good ideas. Game design is much more creative than aircraft design, for example.
I always laugh when I see people on Dragon's Den (Shark Tank south of the border I assume has the same people...) asking for $100,000 to promote their new board game. There just isn't that sort of profit margin in games (in general... find the next Trivial Pursuit or Settlers of Cataan or Cranium and you'll be laughing).
