Pai Gow Poker Scanners

I was playing Pai Gow Poker at a casino in Las Vegas. The dealer had a button that would tell her how to set her hand as all of the cards are scanned by the shuffle machine. My cynical mind is that the the random generator, the shuffle machine and the loyalty card computer (tracking player bets) could be sync'd to determine which hands should go where. Is anyone aware of this and could Pai Gow now be a pre-determined game such as slots?

Some are quite aware of this.
The system in use is Shufflemaster Inc.'s "I-deal" system, and it is used on their Fortune Pai Gow product.

Yes, it is true, the table system knows what each player's hand packet is, and also uses a random number generator to determine the start position of the deal, essentially knowing what every position player - including the dealer - has. This is how it knows how to set each position hand to the house way, if a player asks. It also instructs the dealer how to set is hand to the approved house way. This is also why player banking or the dragon hand aren't allowed, - because it disorientates the table computer system has to which position is holding what cards for this hand-setting assist.

However, there is some pushback on the system, namely:
1. Many players become annoyed or infuriated when they see their hand being known pre-deal, then displayed by the table computer system upon a hand setting recommendation. Seeing the cards that we are holding in our hand displayed on the system when asked makes us say, "the Table computer KNEW my cards going INTO the deal - and is displaying it now! Huh??!!"

2. If, - in a very rare and unlikely scenario, the table software is "gaffed" or illegally modified, the modified computer code could possibly instruct the system to ship a bonus hand of a Four of a kind or better to the dealer's position - or to a specific player's position. ["Where's the USB port on this thing?!"] Please note that the system does not "Arrange" hands, as it really shuffles legitimately within the shuffler, it's just that the system knows the composition of each hand after the internal shuffle is done, and after the random number generator determines the deal, and so does NOT say "who gets what hand." In defense of this system, also note that the random number generator is disconnected from the database result of the deck shuffle, so that the random number generates the starting position of the deal without knowledge or interest in a random fashion, THEN later is instructed of "who has what," so that it can assist in hand setting, if needed. This is very much like a Video Poker machine or slot machine, where the results are known by the system [as the hand is already determined before it is played out by the player(s)], - but is allowed to happen in a fair and random fashion, - and is only tracked to assist hand-setting, and to prevent the introduction of "mucked cards" into play through after-the-fact verification.

3. Players frequently feel uncomfortable playing a live card game where the play results were actually pre-known and resolved by the system before the play of the hand itself - but after (and not known by the database) until after the random number generator and a random shuffle is completed. The random number generator gives both a random "start deal position" - as well as a random shuffle itself, and so are not influenced. The system doesn't know and doesn't influence anything, but tracks the full deal only after the random shuffle and the random starting position, - and after deal has begun, - exactly the same way as on all slot and VP machines, but on a table game. That's all it is about these machines.

4. Still, many Pai Gow players insist on playing at tables where physical dice are used to determine the start position, and some casinos use this way on this request. In these cases, there is no display console on the table, and a dice shaker determines the random start position, or the display is covered, and a dice shaker is used.

5. The I-deal system has been examined for fair play usage by Nevada Gaming and other gaming jurisdictions, just as the slot machine systems are verified. If you know and trust slot or VP play, you should by all means have confidence in the I-deal system. You should also have trust in it if you just play tables games also.

For the record, I trust the system, but can easily see why paranoia exists.

Quote: Paigowdan

4. Still, many Pai Gow players insist on playing at tables where physical dice are used to determine the start position, and some casinos use this way on this request. In these cases, there is no display console on the table, and a dice shaker determines the random start position, or the display is covered, and a dice shaker is used.

Why can't dice always be used?

Instead of an RNG displaying the starting position, the dealer should use the dice, then enter the result.

The hand-setting routine would still be able to set the dealer's hand.

The result is, although the system would know all the hands in advance, there is no way it could know who is getting which hand, so no player paranoia about the system rigging the dealer's hand.

Dave,
Dice are used heavily, and are trusted.
Actually, there are some "touch screen" third-party Random number displays in use, not connected to the I-deal system, or to any shufflers.
We used them at Fiesta Henderson with Galaxy Gaming's "Emperor's Challenge" Pai Gow in 2009, and they worked well.
But the dice are so easy to use, and the players totally trust them, that we use them on EZ Pai Gow. The Asian players especially like the usage of Asian dice and shaker.

There is currently no commercial mechanism to connect the "starting hand" number result from either the dice or to a third-party independent Number generator on the I-deal hand setting display, - simply because Pai Gow hands are not difficult to set for a poker or Pai Gow dealer.

Dealing Pai Gow is very much like Dealing Blackjack or Three-Card Poker: Easy!
The dealer just looks at his hand and sets it (if knowing poker), and done. One or Two break-in shifts dealing it, and it is mastered. Slower game, anyway. If a dealer cannot quickly help a player to set his own hand by the house way, then he might have trouble setting his own hand. This is rare, and he's taken off the game.
Now dealing Craps on a jammed up table is often very nasty, THAT needs a TCS Huxley kind of assist.

And "house paranoia" is prevelant in many many players, so dice shaker usage or a third-party RNG works out very well, and just as quick with all dealers. But I like the I-deal RNG display.

Shit, if you need a computer to tell you how to set a card hand, you should not be dealing....there are very, very few "Blackjack only" dealers with more than two months of dealing experience..

Quote: Paigowdan

But the dice are so easy to use, and the players totally trust them, that we use them on EZ Pai Gow. The Asian players especially like the usage of Asian dice and shaker.

For those that don't know, Asian dice have a different look. This picture is from the Wikipedia - Dice page, showing standard board game dice, Asian dice, and craps dice.

Quote:

There is currently no commercial mechanism to connect the "starting hand" number result from either the dice or to a third-party independent Number generator on the I-deal hand setting display,

It seems that it should not be too much trouble to add a keypad for this.

Quote:

Dealing Pai Gow is very much like Dealing Blackjack or Three-Card Poker: Easy!
The dealer just looks at his hand and sets it (if knowing poker), and done. One or Two break-in shifts dealing it, and it is mastered. Slower game, anyway. If a dealer cannot quickly help a player to set his own hand by the house way, then he might have trouble setting his own hand. This is rare, and he's taken off the game.

I agree, except...

I thought it was mentioned in another thread that the system tells the dealer how to set the hand. Very useful for break-in dealers.

That brought on the discussion that, although typical house ways are easy to set, ideal house ways would have to many minor exceptions - exceptions that are too hard to remember and therefore left out. These exceptions would be easily incorporated into a computer that tells the dealer how to set the hand.



Dan -

I'm not really arguing with you. I just think that if there is player paranoia, then it's easily eliminated by using dice, and adding an interface to allow the dealer to enter the dice result - after the cards are dealt.

If you agree, then you're in a far better position than the rest of us, to suggest it to ShuffleMaster or other Powers-That-Be.

Dan,

I can't find anything to disagree with you about, but ou're overlooking a rather simple amtter: trust.

If the player can see the shuffle and the dice, she knows everything is random. It is when you hide something, or give out information, that mistrust can arise. But then I imagine that happened when automated shufflers replaced hand shuffling, too. So maybe it's just a matter of time.

And naturally there are people who will believe the game is fixed even if everything is out in the open. But you can't argue with such people.

Quote: Paigowdan

Dealing Pai Gow is very much like Dealing Blackjack or Three-Card Poker: Easy!
The dealer just looks at his hand and sets it (if knowing poker), and done. One or Two break-in shifts dealing it, and it is mastered. Slower game, anyway. If a dealer cannot quickly help a player to set his own hand by the house way, then he might have trouble

I know you are far more qualified than I in this matter, but I must disagree with these statements. I believe that dealing PG poker is considerably more challenging than blackjack. One of the reasons I enjoy playing PG poker is that i have found the dealers to be more competent and experienced. It seems this also tends to make them more personable and entertaining. I think that understanding the house way in PG poker is more difficult than remembering whether to stand or hit on a soft 17. A blackjack dealer doesn't even need to bother with splitting and doubling strategies. Plus, I am frequently impressed with the PG poker dealers' ability to calculate the 5% commission on complicated bets, and make appropriate change.

I am concerned that the introduction of computers that set the dealer's hand, as well as commission-free games, will eliminate the need for competent, experienced dealers. This would significantly decrease my enjoyment of the game.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

For the record, I trust the system, but can easily see why paranoia exists.

I agree. Personally, I would file the distrust of card readers under the usual hysteria every time a new piece of technology comes out. This too shall pass.

I played at either cosmopoloitan or aria, and did not like the 'feel' of the game. The dealer told me that she would be unable to deal the game if it was not for the computer telling her the house ways. I did not know that player banking is not allowed. I think that will be a BIG drawback as many of the higher roller players I have seen, although they do not bank frequently, need to 'change the cards' by banking when they are on a losing streak. When alone at a table I always bank every other hand and it is a reason I always seek out an empty table if possible.

I have never played any version of Pai Gow (tiles, poker, EZ, whatever), so this comment is offered purely out of ignorance...

It seems to me that if someone is suspicious of the integrity of casinos that use card readers, it is not necessarily due to suspecting that they are controlling what cards are dealt to whom.

I have the impression that if a player (or dealer) knew the opponent's cards/tiles, that person might sometimes be able to improve his/her chances by setting the hand differently from the usual way -- setting it to perform best in opposition to the opponent's specific cards rather than against cards in general. If a computer knows what cards are dealt to everyone and is telling the dealer how to set the house hand, it certainly seems possible for the computer to take advantage of that information in making the decision. It would be improper, but it seems possible.

Did I misunderstand something here? Was this discussed above and I just overlooked it?

I can already see the natural progression.

> Paigow poker played with cards and dealers and chips in a casino.

> Electronic shuffling machines added. Dice removed in favor of random number generator.

> Automated shuffling machine now knows every hand as it is dealt. Tells dealer how to set hand as well as giving advice to players on how to set their hands.

> Dealer no longer actually required. Vacuum-based technology allows cards and chips to be "scooped" a hole in the center of the table after each hand.

> Chips no longer actually required. Miniature touch screen in front of each player shows current balance after inserting cash into cash receptacle. Touch screen also allows betting various amounts and side-bets.

> Cash no longer required. Credit and Debit cards cheerfully accepted!

> Cards no longer necessary. Touch screen in front of each set shows what cards are dealt to you. Automatically sorts your cards and sets them according to house way, which player can change.

> Player no longer able to change house way.

> With all actions automatically determined, many more hands can be dealt. By only flashing the cards briefly, approximately 800 hands per minute are dealt. Player enter bankroll, amount per wager, and ending conditions. Final results are informed to player with any wins being credited back to credit card.

> With new in-room technology, player no longer leaves hotel room to play PaiGow Poker! Simply insert credit card, and follow steps above. You will be informed of your wins or losses.

> Las Vegas no longer required! Player simply goes to online website, gives credit card number, and follow steps above.

> Player interaction no longer required. Player will receive a statement each quarter, and losses will be automatically deduced from their credit card.

Quote: konceptum

> Player interaction no longer required. Player will receive a statement each quarter, and losses will be automatically deduced from their credit card.

good one!

I would say that because players trust this system so dearly, credit card statements are not even needed.
Money will silently disappear from your account.

Before I start, first, KONCEPTUM... you win the award for funniest post in a long time. That made me laugh so hard.

Now...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Why can't dice always be used?

This mainly applies to times when banking is an option... but most casinos allow the banking player to shake the dice. One casino I played at (Rythym City in IA) had to stop allowing players to shake the dice, as a patron grabbed them and hurled them at the dealer. That person was escorted out, and guess what, no players handling the dice.

Let's take Konceptum's fantastic logic and see what happens to a craps game!

Quote: Tiltpoul

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Why can't dice always be used?

This mainly applies to times when banking is an option... but most casinos allow the banking player to shake the dice. One casino I played at (Rythym City in IA) had to stop allowing players to shake the dice, as a patron grabbed them and hurled them at the dealer. That person was escorted out, and guess what, no players handling the dice.

My question was really referring to the rather lame reasoning why the RNG needed to replace the dice.

There's paranoia that the system of the auto-shuffler, scanner, and RNG knowing every hand. My argument is remove the RNG, deal the cards, and THEN enter the value of the dice. No more reason for the paranoia. Problem solved with little extra cost of either equipment and no extra time required to deal the game.

"No extra time?," you say?

Everywhere I've seen it, when the RNG button is pressed, the display does a little dance before showing the number. That is the same amount of time needed to shake the dice. Entering the dice number into the computer can be done after dealing, while the players are setting their hands.

I saw this tech in the Nugget when I was out there 2 weeks ago. It would help if they programmed it right. Granted, this was an edge case, but it incorrectly advised a player on house way that cost him a winning {T,T,T,T,A,K,c}. The machine said {T,T|T,T,A,K,c}. The Golden Nugget house way is {A,K|T,T,T,T,c}. It wasn't my hand, but after the dealer flipped over his cards (and showing that the decision had an impact), I called the floor over and asked how the house sets that hand. He confirmed my understanding of the house way (mid-quads with an ace = quads in back, ace+next singleton up front) and then hemmed and hawed over what to do when confronted with the hand that the player was incorrectly advised of. In the end he said, "They are your cards. We can't be responsible for how you choose to play them."

Ass.

Anyway, I had a comment for Pai Gow Dan:

Dan,

You said that after one or two break-in shifts and then a dealer who doesn't get it is removed from the game... Part of the fun of Pai Gow for me is arguing with the dealers about how they don't know their own house way. Or the entire table falling deadly silent when the dealer misses a {A,x|flush} in lieu of {7,4|AKQJT}. Of course, everyone makes mistakes - and I am *completely* talking out of my back side with no substantiation to this whatsoever - but I have to imagine that PGP is one of the most error-prone games, by percentage of hands. I'm curious if you disagree with this.

Quote: PerpetualNewbie

I saw this tech in the Nugget when I was out there 2 weeks ago. It would help if they programmed it right. Granted, this was an edge case, but it incorrectly advised a player on house way that cost him a winning {T,T,T,T,A,K,c}. The machine said {T,T|T,T,A,K,c}. The Golden Nugget house way is {A,K|T,T,T,T,c}. It wasn't my hand, but after the dealer flipped over his cards (and showing that the decision had an impact), I called the floor over and asked how the house sets that hand. He confirmed my understanding of the house way (mid-quads with an ace = quads in back, ace+next singleton up front) and then hemmed and hawed over what to do when confronted with the hand that the player was incorrectly advised of. In the end he said, "They are your cards. We can't be responsible for how you choose to play them."

Ass.

Yeah, that really makes you question the technology... if i were the pit supervisor, just to avoid a PR nightmare, I would let the player reset the hand. I'm sure the house had its reason, but man, if a machine KNEW which cards you had and which the dealer had, and advised against House Way, that could be a call to NGC. Pay the guy his win and move on...

Quote: PerpetualNewbie

You said that after one or two break-in shifts and then a dealer who doesn't get it is removed from the game... Part of the fun of Pai Gow for me is arguing with the dealers about how they don't know their own house way. Or the entire table falling deadly silent when the dealer misses a {A,x|flush} in lieu of {7,4|AKQJT}. Of course, everyone makes mistakes - and I am *completely* talking out of my back side with no substantiation to this whatsoever - but I have to imagine that PGP is one of the most error-prone games, by percentage of hands. I'm curious if you disagree with this.

I'm not a dealer, game designer or anything, but I play a lot of PGP. I have had dealers on multiple occasions miss a flush even to create an A-high Pai Gow. One time, the hand was super complicated. The dealer set the hand wrong, knew it, but said the cameras wouldn't be able to catch the mistake, and it resulted in pushes for me instead of losses (I was playing two hands at the time).

Quote: Tiltpoul

...Let's take Konceptum's fantastic logic and see what happens to a craps game!

Fantastic idea, but don't laugh too much as I did see diceless craps at a trade show in London. You may have seen the electronic screens, possibly half the size of a snooker table, for either roulette or Texas Hold Em (for instance Victoria, London). This version, using a similar idea, had the shooter flick his finger across to "throw" the dice. On roulette, I was amazed how it knew which fingers came from which players when bets were being made.

Meanwhile I would prefer the dice and dealer having to set the hand - or in some cases sheepishly ask the pit boss for help - also they can't slip in complicated exceptions without a definitive list somewhere. And yes it's nice when they miss a straight or flush - although on one occasion I had to point it out otherwise my low hand lost.

Quote: Tiltpoul

... I'm sure the house had its reason, but man, if a machine KNEW which cards you had and which the dealer had, and advised against House Way, that could be a call to NGC. Pay the guy his win and move on. ...

Sounds a bit like a variation of the issue of my question/comment back at the bottom of page 1.

Doc,

The house must set it's hand according to a pre-defined, algorithmic house way. This "House way" may be different from one casino to another (including different properties within the same chain, even), but each dealer hand within the same casino is supposed to be played in accordance with this pre-defined way. To wit, This link (shamelessly stolen from WoO) is the Golden Nugget's house way and it specifically references the case I mentioned (quads 7-10 split exceptwith an Ace or better up front). It has the instructions for what the dealer is supposed to do. Every single time.

If the machine takes into account the 'proper' play of other players into telling the dealer how to set his hand, that would, indeed, be improper. In fact, I'm quite good at sitting in seat 3 or 4 and viewing 3-4 other player's hands before setting my own. I can synthesize the shape of the deck very quickly and I've been known to play some rather odd-balls as a result of it.

It's not at all proper and I get the occasional slap on the wrist for it. But it would be just as improper for the house to 'view' everyone's hand and then set their hand in the most advantageous way for them. Could you imagine if RFID chips were in use? The house could 'view' each hand, weight each hand by the bet and then make the most profitable play - losing to 5 players but deliberately going after the black chip every single time. That said, I don't believe this at all happens and I do believe in the integrity and independence of the systems at play.

But, if I have the choice between playing at a house that has that tech and one that doesn't - I'll play the old fashioned way every single time.

Newbie,

I think I agree with all that you said. I understand that I don't really understand this game, and I was just speculating about different reasons that a player might be uncomfortable playing in a game with a card reader (other than just thinking that the shuffler was stacking the deck). It seems there are a number of improper ways that a game could be operated with that additional info.

I completely agree with you. Having a choice between a game that has zero chance of malfeasance and a minor chance of malfeasance (even if it's not deliberate, like my experience at the Nugget), I'll choose the level game every time.

It's the same reason why the Chinese like the aforementioned dice. Because the machine can't know what the physical dice are going to show.

Oddly, I don't like hand-dealt Pai Gow games - where the dealers deal out seven 7-card hands by hand. It makes no sense, but the cards get too shuffled. I can barely get a pair in a hand-dealt game. Total superstition, I know.. Not to mention the 3-5 minute break between hands. But still, I avoid those like the plague.

Quote: PerpetualNewbie

Dan,

You said that after one or two break-in shifts and then a dealer who doesn't get it is removed from the game... Part of the fun of Pai Gow for me is arguing with the dealers about how they don't know their own house way. Or the entire table falling deadly silent when the dealer misses a {A,x|flush} in lieu of {7,4|AKQJT}. Of course, everyone makes mistakes - and I am *completely* talking out of my back side with no substantiation to this whatsoever - but I have to imagine that PGP is one of the most error-prone games, by percentage of hands. I'm curious if you disagree with this.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, including dealers. When I play, I always inform the dealer of a mistake, even if and especially if it changes the outcome of the hand to the player's favor. I don't want to be given handicaps, I don't want any ill-gotten gains, I never take any money that ain't mine, - not to be a goodie-two-shoes, but that's the standard of the game I want to see. Just done right, played right, and dealt right. If a player gives me crap about "we wouldda won, asshole!" I state "no we wouldn't have, because that's not the hand played by the rules. If you want money you're not entitled to, go stick up a 7-11." And before anyone quotes this, a dealer mistake does not make the money yours, although a floorman's mistake does.

Also, Pai Gow is actually a very error-free game, extremely accurate and error-free game in practice with just an average good dealer. It is dice that can get really hairy on a jammed-up game filled with shot-takers.

Quote: Tiltpoul

One casino I played at (Rythym City in IA) had to stop allowing players to shake the dice, as a patron grabbed them and hurled them at the dealer. That person was escorted out, and guess what, no players handling the dice.

Tilt- What a RIDICULOUS overreaction from a myopic management!!! If someone threw a chair at a dealer would everyone need to stand!

Quote: Paigowdan

Also, Pai Gow is actually a very error-free game, extremely accurate and error-free game in practice with just an average good dealer.

You may want to think so, but you are dead wrong. Each time I play I make specific mental notes as to dealer errors, and how they affected my hand. I cannot remember the last time I played when I did not have at least one non corrected error that made a difference in outcome. I have played at dozen's of different casinos, and of course there are some dealers who are better than others, but I am convinced that there are enough errors that occur to help the astute player to chip away substantially at the house edge, and I KNOW I personally have played at tables with enough dealer errors that I had the edge. Dan--- you may make errors, too, but... since most players will NOT correct them to their own detriment YOU would never know.... The player has the advantage in this way... He has only one hand to set and he cares about it. The dealer is chatting with player one, seeing if his relief is coming, alerting the pit boss that someone passed out at the nearby slot machine, signalling for the cigarette girl to come over, AND... if he makes a mistake, HE loses no money. In fact, he probably gets tipped more if he does. My point is mostly that if you were concentrating on the game as if you were the PLAYER, then yes, you would make likely no mistakes in your session, but as the uncaring uninvested distracted dealer errors occur. I think many dealers are not as good as you think.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote PaigowDan: Also, Pai Gow is actually a very error-free game, extremely accurate and error-free game in practice with just an average good dealer.

You may want to think so, but you are dead wrong. Each time I play I make specific mental notes as to dealer errors, and how they affected my hand. I cannot remember the last time I played when I did not have at least one non corrected error that made a difference in outcome. I have played at dozen's of different casinos, and of course there are some dealers who are better than others, but I am convinced that there are enough errors that occur to help the astute player to chip away substantially at the house edge, and I KNOW I personally have played at tables with enough dealer errors that I had the edge.

Where do you play, these casinos? Sheesh.
Some would say that If you can play at a casino where the errors are enough to give you the edge, then quit your job as you've struck oil.

Quote: SOOPOO

Dan--- you may make errors, too, but... since most players will NOT correct them to their own detriment YOU would never know....

On dice, yes, frequently. On Pai Gow, extremely rarely, and I do indeed know. Trust me, I know Pai Gow.

Quote: SOOPOO

The player has the advantage in this way... He has only one hand to set and he cares about it. The dealer is chatting with player one, seeing if his relief is coming, alerting the pit boss that someone passed out at the nearby slot machine, signalling for the cigarette girl to come over, AND... if he makes a mistake, HE loses no money. In fact, he probably gets tipped more if he does. My point is mostly that if you were concentrating on the game as if you were the PLAYER, then yes, you would make likely no mistakes in your session, but as the uncaring uninvested distracted dealer errors occur. I think many dealers are not as good as you think.

I think there are a lot of bad dealers, both in skill and in attitude problems.
When I deal, I concentrate on the game in front of me. And I play the game, too, sometimes playing it for the house. But...Dice is work.

Do me a favor, PM me twenty or so Pai Gow hands as examples....I'd like to take a look as to what they're messing up on.

I read the thread, but didn't see the answer to this question ...

I'm guessing cards have some sort of RFID in them. When the machine shuffles, and it picks the starting spot, does it *know* the contents of each consecutive seven card hand in play beforehand, or does it shuffle "after" picking the starting spot?

Fair enough - I can see your point about dice. With 80, 100+ discrete bets on the table at any given time on a busy table, it's easy to miss is a bet (or pay out a bet that never existed or to the wrong person).

I guess, as a dice player, I'm extra diligent about knowing what bets I have up and working. Dice dealers have, indeed, forgotten me before and a polite nudge got me paid.

You just don't see dice dealers yell "7-out, line away!" when the dice read 5,3.

Dan- my last time I was grumbling about my crummy cards... I had 22456 89. The dealer had 3 of a kind with J 10 or so up top. He called our hand a push. The most eggregious example was at a casino in Mesquite. Obviously a new dealer, but I was stunned at how bad she was. MULTIPLE mistakes that my then 10 year old would not make. There was a hush over the entire table (I was the 'big' bettor playing $20 per hand, so the casino was bleeding, but not going broke.) When the dealer split a pair of kings, dumb blonde in seat 1 asked out loud why she(the dealer) would do that. The pit boss became aware, and from then on basically watched the dealer every hand. I would say the most common dealer error is either paying a push or not taking the players money on a house win. Its a blur to me now, but either at Aria or Cosmo I was playing with David (son from Wiz challenge) and the dealer did not collect his $10 which as it turned out would have ended his 'session' due to lack of funds. He then got on a hot streak and eventually got back to even for the 'session', which probably was my gambling highlight of the trip. I don't remeber the hands, but he had a loss that the dealer did not collect. The 'non verbal' communication between us was 'priceless' to me. (I know you think I'm a bad person for not correcting the error). I wrote earlier on a previous trip I played 'Asia Poker' at Paris with another fledgling dealer, who was very polite and I think was trying her hardest, but over 2 hours I was up 20 units due to her inability to 'see' the hands. I wasn't counting the number of errors because there were so many. My local casino is Seneca Niagara, and I would guess that on average I play 4- 6 hours a pop and would expect 2 errors in that time. There is no doubt I am up many units in my Pai Gow career, and anyone can yap about "I am on the right side of variance", but I think there are enough errors to make a difference. Also, Dan, you know how weak house rules can be-- my casino thinks 77223A4 is the same as 1010662A4.
As for whoever asked me why I don't 'strike it rich' playing pai gow, the only way for me to have an advantage would be with the weakest of dealers, and even then it would likely be a virtually insignificant advantage. I am not a gambler anymore. I go to play to enjoy myself, so if I walk out up $10 after having sat for a while that is a total success for me. There is NO way I could ever make more at a table than I could at work, not even in the same ballpark.

Quote: Paigowdan

Where do you play, these casinos? [...] On Pai Gow, extremely rarely, and I do indeed know. Trust me, I know Pai Gow.

I'll answer that and turn it around. I play every so often at the casinos and cardrooms in the Pacific Northwest, and when a table is full, I usually see one misplayed dealer hand every other visit. The worst I saw were two misplayed hands by one dealer in a shift. So I'd say it isn't common enough to yield an edge, but in my experience, not extremely rare.

I don't play in Vegas because I like other games there.

I am respectful that you are a knowledgeable pai gow poker player, so I believe your experience to be true. Where do you play?

For the record, I do not correct dealer errors, but if there was a player at the table that did, I would not complain.

All errors, if found by the floor, can be corrected and hands can be drawn out of the shuffler/discard and re-evaluated according to the correct house setting.

Typically, once the cards are shuffled/washed, the hand is resolved and that's that. Hell, I've even seen floors watch the dealer make a mistake, pay bets off and make a note of the time so that the matter can be reviewed with the dealer in private.

But while we're sharing fun stories, I've got a good one.

I had an interesting experience at Harrah's New Orleans where the floor came up and informed 4 players who were on the table for more than an hour that a hand from ~30 minutes ago was going to be reviewed and that as "upstairs" resolves the action, that they would be collecting back "winning" bets paid out in error. The dealer had missed a flush in an all-black hand, electing to play a K-high pai gow (with a J-high on top). Needless to say, everyone "won"

So all four of us (myself, my wife and 2 other unrelated folk) pick up and leave. Not colored up, mind you - we took about 650 in red off the table. And the floor starts yelling, "You all can't leave! You're cheaters!"

I gave my chips to my wife with explicit instructions to go directly to the cage, cash in and meet in the middle. I spun around and gave that woman a piece of my mind like there was no tomorrow. Security was called and I thought they were going to drag my ass out of there. I managed to drag my own ass out of there and my wife and I took our winnings back out to Bourbon street.

I thought about pursuing the matter with the casino, but I figured that the ruckus I caused was enough to get at least her management to review the tape with her.

Hey, everyone's human, right?

Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

I read the thread, but didn't see the answer to this question ...

I'm guessing cards have some sort of RFID in them. When the machine shuffles, and it picks the starting spot, does it *know* the contents of each consecutive seven card hand in play beforehand, or does it shuffle "after" picking the starting spot?

It's not RFID. The sorter has a visual scanner and sees each card as it is placed in one of the packets to be dealt.

When the current hand ends, and the dealer drops the deck into the sorter, the RNG picks a starting hand, and then feeds the new packets in sequence based upon that starting hand.


Someone who is paranoid would believe that the system can either stack the deck as well as the RNG, or simply stack the RNG to feed the dealer one of the better hands. Certainly not the best hand, because people still need to win occasionally.

My argument is that if the casino really wants to eliminate the paranoia, then it would be a simple thing to replace the RNG with dice and a keypad.

And I'll repeat myself: I do NOT beleive the casino is stacking the deck or RNG.


On the flip side of the coin, other games use the same type of sorter, possibly with scanner, albeit a different number of cards per packet, and always deal the same packet to the same seat. So the RNG in Pai-Gow really should be a non-issue.

Quote: PerpetualNewbie

I had an interesting experience at Harrah's New Orleans where the floor came up and informed 4 players who were on the table for more than an hour that a hand from ~30 minutes ago was going to be reviewed and that as "upstairs" resolves the action, that they would be collecting back "winning" bets paid out in error. The dealer had missed a flush in an all-black hand, electing to play a K-high pai gow (with a J-high on top). Needless to say, everyone "won"

So all four of us (myself, my wife and 2 other unrelated folk) pick up and leave. Not colored up, mind you - we took about 650 in red off the table. And the floor starts yelling, "You all can't leave! You're cheaters!"

I gave my chips to my wife with explicit instructions to go directly to the cage, cash in and meet in the middle. I spun around and gave that woman a piece of my mind like there was no tomorrow. Security was called and I thought they were going to drag my ass out of there. I managed to drag my own ass out of there and my wife and I took our winnings back out to Bourbon street.

I thought about pursuing the matter with the casino, but I figured that the ruckus I caused was enough to get at least her management to review the tape with her.

Hey, everyone's human, right?

Way to stand up for yourself. Well done sir!

I would have been indigent, too. If they forced to me to stay, I would have claimed false imprisonment, and demanded to see the tape.

That is the WORST customer service decision you can make. Can you imagine them trying to "re-collect" from the players after their own error? In a negative expectation game, no less? Just take the loss ... good lord.

Dan,

I play Pai Gow Poker for hours at a time and dealers make a lot of mistakes. I have been paid when I pushed, pushed when I lost. I was just in Lake Tahoe the dealer flips over her cards the guy next to me says a straight she looks down says what straight and gives herself a ten high pai gow. yes she had a straight and she paid everybody. This happens more than you think. The problem is you dont know when its going to happen or how often so you cant really take advantage of it.

Are you sure that the random number that determines what seat gets the first hand is shown BEFORE the cards are scanned? I love the randomness of this game, but I am leery that the system knows what hand to give the dealer.

Personally I do not believe that the shuffler can "Stack" the deck to the house advantage directly. But what it can do is alter the frequency of card combinations....

I have ZERO doubts on this one.....

I used to play PG at the Red Wind often, like almost every day for up to 8 hours a sitting, and did so for many years. I prefer to play "Third Base" the seat closest to the shuffler, it was easy to lean over a little bit and read the machines screen., it's sitting right there...

There was always a line on it that said "OCR OFF" upon inquiry I was told that the shuffler did have Optical Card Recognition capability but that it was only so the shuffler would know if the deck was complete, besides they didn't use it cause pit procedures made sure the deck was complete so they didn't need it. Adamantly stated that the machine was incapable of reading hands.

Well with being able to see that little line "OCR OFF" on the screen was reassuring.

Until the day I saw "OCR ON" on the screen.

Being a long term player I usually was offered the tidbits on which dealer had given away a royal or straight flush that day and any high bonus hands were a routing topic of conversations at the tables. The normal occurrence of such (royal flush) was two or three a week. it was not uncommon for players to loudly proclaim their "Almost" hands, one card away from a seven card straight flush and such. In fact My wife had been that close on seven different occasions. And I was one suit off the royal with royal pair three different times.... A regular straight flush was a common occurrence with frequent multiple occurrences on some days.....

Until they turned on the OCR....

Two days after I noticed and mentioned that the OCR was turned on, they started blanking the screen so you couldn't see anything on it.

Now it's been almost three years since this happened, I don't play the game anymore. the occurrence of straight flushes is now out in the weeks between, a royal flush is almost a NON - occurrence, and is widely announced when it does happen....

And no one has come within one card of a seven card straight flush since....

Most of the players I used to play with have noticed, the dealers have noticed, (but won't talk about it) and the pit bosses quickly change the subject to something else when it comes up......

So practical reality and logic, empirical and very good anecdotal evidence, and actual experience tells me that the OCR in the shuffler IS capable of ordering the cards in a non-random fashion, and when OCR is turned on, it does exactly this.....

Therefore, I don't play the game anymore because in my opinion, the house can manipulate the advantage by limiting the card combinations the shuffler will output.. It's the only logical explanation for what happened at the Red Wind Pai Gow tables....

The shuffler can't actually give specific hands to specific positions, but it can reduce the number of bonus hands dealt....

Only logical explanation.....

Quote: Egilman

Personally I do not believe that the shuffler can "Stack" the deck to the house advantage directly. But what it can do is alter the frequency of card combinations....

I have ZERO doubts on this one.....

I used to play PG at the Red Wind often, like almost every day for up to 8 hours a sitting, and did so for many years. I prefer to play "Third Base" the seat closest to the shuffler, it was easy to lean over a little bit and read the machines screen., it's sitting right there...

There was always a line on it that said "OCR OFF" upon inquiry I was told that the shuffler did have Optical Card Recognition capability but that it was only so the shuffler would know if the deck was complete, besides they didn't use it cause pit procedures made sure the deck was complete so they didn't need it. Adamantly stated that the machine was incapable of reading hands.

Well with being able to see that little line "OCR OFF" on the screen was reassuring.

Until the day I saw "OCR ON" on the screen.

Being a long term player I usually was offered the tidbits on which dealer had given away a royal or straight flush that day and any high bonus hands were a routing topic of conversations at the tables. The normal occurrence of such (royal flush) was two or three a week. it was not uncommon for players to loudly proclaim their "Almost" hands, one card away from a seven card straight flush and such. In fact My wife had been that close on seven different occasions. And I was one suit off the royal with royal pair three different times.... A regular straight flush was a common occurrence with frequent multiple occurrences on some days.....

Until they turned on the OCR....

Two days after I noticed and mentioned that the OCR was turned on, they started blanking the screen so you couldn't see anything on it.

Now it's been almost three years since this happened, I don't play the game anymore. the occurrence of straight flushes is now out in the weeks between, a royal flush is almost a NON - occurrence, and is widely announced when it does happen....

And no one has come within one card of a seven card straight flush since....

Most of the players I used to play with have noticed, the dealers have noticed, (but won't talk about it) and the pit bosses quickly change the subject to something else when it comes up......

So practical reality and logic, empirical and very good anecdotal evidence, and actual experience tells me that the OCR in the shuffler IS capable of ordering the cards in a non-random fashion, and when OCR is turned on, it does exactly this.....

Therefore, I don't play the game anymore because in my opinion, the house can manipulate the advantage by limiting the card combinations the shuffler will output.. It's the only logical explanation for what happened at the Red Wind Pai Gow tables....

The shuffler can't actually give specific hands to specific positions, but it can reduce the number of bonus hands dealt....

Only logical explanation.....

You are not correct in your assessment. Yes, the machine can read the cards, but it is read only when dealing. It can not read and then react to it during play mode. It can read and react to the specific cards in sort mode. These are documented facts and the coding is reviewed by independent labs (like GLI for the iDeal Shuffler). I get these lab reports constantly.

I'm guessing the reason they are covering the digital screen is because people like you think there is a conspiracy to take your money unfairly. The problem is, the Casino does not have to take your money that way. They will take it just fine within the rules of the game. If they wanted to tilt the edge more towards them and either take your money faster or more of it per hand, all they have to do is adjust the paytables on the bonus bets. Completely legal and common.

I'm sure you won't believe this information, but it's the truth. If you lived near me I'd show you the GLI report even open up a machine and show you how it works.

Good luck in the future.

ZCore13

Zcore is as straight a shooter as there is and on the cutting edge of knowledge as casino executive....I would take his knowledge on this shuffler issue to the bank....I may have to take him up on that invite next time I am in AZ.

Maybe so, maybe no, If I was down that way I would take you up on it.

All I know is, (and 5 or 6k other players) that when they turned them on, the number of winners dropped almost 60%.

That is a fact, it isn't a one person shouting conspiracy cause they are loosing more than they would like. it's a couple of thousand experienced players recognizing the difference. Got no bone to pick here I don't play the game anymore cause I don't win at it like I used to, for whatever reason.

Just one clue, all casinos are a conspiracy to take your money. That's why there are no games without a house edge. the house will always win in the long run, the house gamble is that people will always return trying to beat that edge, and they stay too long...

Not a risky bet at all for the house. ;-0