strusiu
strusiu
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December 7th, 2009 at 4:32:00 AM permalink
Suppose that you have a straight and the dealer has three of a kind. Do you win Ante Bet Bonus in this situation?
Croupier
Croupier
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December 7th, 2009 at 5:15:43 AM permalink
Yes. The Ante Bonus is the same as the pair plus in that it is paid for any qualifying hand regardless of the outcome of the hand.
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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 29th, 2010 at 6:10:03 PM permalink
Croupier, I assume that that is UK practice.
I have seen and dealt here in Las Vegas that a losing hand is generally a full loss on the ANTE; Ante payments, including bonuses, require an ANTE win in some houses. Simply put, Lose the Ante is to Lose the Ante bonus. It is also assumed that the Pair Plus would provide for the win over the ante loss if made.

Almost always an ANTE bonus is a win on the hand, so cases where a straight or better loses to a higher hand is exceedingly rare.

This will result in different houses handling it in different ways as a freak occurance, in the sense that different shift managers and pit bosses will make different "on the spot" calls - based on their own knowledge and assumptions when presented with a situation that is not covered in the pit's or dealer's general knowledge of the game. No one has Dereck Webb's phone number handy!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
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April 29th, 2010 at 6:19:27 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No one has Dereck Webb's phone number handy!

No, but you have a right to insist that Gaming be consulted if you're not happy with the call. And if you're not happy with thier answer, get it written up and appeal it (I'm not sure to who, but...).


This scenario was the topic of one of the Wiz' posts in the Dealer Mistakes thread. Here's a link directly to the post:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/advice/1259-mistaken-dealer-payout/#post11986
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paigowdan
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April 29th, 2010 at 8:06:35 PM permalink
I have never heard of a case at my casino where an aggrieved player went to the Gaming Commission - that's even rarer than the hands. Most cases the floor will offer solid comp, or at least thoroughly explain their rationale.

The hand I dealt in three card poker a while ago - a low straight - was beaten by my higher straight as dealer - so I paid the Pair-plus 6:1 after taking the ANTE and Play. I was previously told this was the action, and the player didn't even question it, losing his two nickels on the Ante/Play combo, but winning $30 on the P-p. With the other convention, the player would have won a total of $35, a $5 difference, adding only the extra ANTE bonus. It made for a short and interesting conversation with a player who was glad to win the P-p.

For Gaming to be contacted over this $5 effect would have been petty. If the player had protested, the floor would have thrown him the nickel, and the player would have hopefully announced, "what a great place to play!"

Quite often my floormen are mistaken about things, and I have to just dummy up and deal. Some are sharp, and some are dangerous idiots who are trying to kill us.

WE SHOULD HAVE A THREAD FOR FREAK HAND OCCURANCES AND HOW THE CASINO, DEALER OR FLOOR HANDLED IT!!!
This could include:
- Doubling for less on superfun-21 with Surrender;
- Super-fun-21 doubling four card 11/soft-11, and getting a five-card 21 that pays double (is it now 4x via the double? I once had to pay 4x.
- The push your luck side bet on blackjack when player has a blackjack, and dealer has an ace calling insurance - and the player wishes to take insurance. (A Dealer's BJ would pay both the tie and the insurance - a double-up win, so to speak).

The thing about mis-paying freak hands is that - as freak hands - their payout effect is usually negligible on the casino pit's bottom line, but causes noise and interest in and above its real $$$ impact.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizard
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April 29th, 2010 at 9:04:14 PM permalink
Quote: strusiu

Suppose that you have a straight and the dealer has three of a kind. Do you win Ante Bet Bonus in this situation?



Yes!!! The Ante bonus is payable whether or not you beat the dealer or the dealer qualfies. DJ linked to a post where I wrote about this frequently made dealer error above. I should try to estimate the amount of money players have lost due dealers almost never knowing the correct rule. Off the top of my head, I think that cost would be in the millions.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
miplet
miplet
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April 30th, 2010 at 3:48:14 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Yes!!! The Ante bonus is payable whether or not you beat the dealer or the dealer qualfies. DJ linked to a post where I wrote about this frequently made dealer error above. I should try to estimate the amount of money players have lost due dealers almost never knowing the correct rule. Off the top of my head, I think that cost would be in the millions.


Assuming me and excel are having a good day, I get a player ev lost due to not paying loss/tied ante bonuses of 0.000755457665881 using 5/4/1 paytable. You will get a losing or tied ante bonus about 1 in 1389 hands. Here is the raw data of the total 407170400 posible player vs. dealer hands:
hand win lose tie
straight 12976488 270504 18288
trips 954736 3312 0
str flush 883240 968 144
溺an Babes #AxelFabulous
DJTeddyBear
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April 30th, 2010 at 5:22:58 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I have never heard of a case at my casino where an aggrieved player went to the Gaming Commission - that's even rarer than the hands. Most cases the floor will offer solid comp, or at least thoroughly explain their rationale.

For Gaming to be contacted over this $5 effect would have been petty. If the player had protested, the floor would have thrown him the nickel, and the player would have hopefully announced, "what a great place to play!"

Oh, I doubt anyone would get so petty as to get Gaming involved. But it is an option.

But if the floorman is good, he'd realize that there are two ways to protect the casino's interest. One is to hoarde every chip. The other is good customer services. The couple bucks it costs to keep a customer happy is a great investment. Floormen who understand where the line is, are great floormen.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Mosca
Mosca
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April 30th, 2010 at 6:08:16 AM permalink
I'd call gaming over the $5, if they didn't pay me. But I'd doubt it would get to that. I think it is more likely that we'd find someone who knew the rules.
NO KILL I
Wizard
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April 30th, 2010 at 7:02:49 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I'd call gaming over the $5, if they didn't pay me. But I'd doubt it would get to that. I think it is more likely that we'd find someone who knew the rules.



I would too. I'm big on principle. I was prepared to call Gaming over $7.50 once. It was about 2005 I was suprirsed to find a single-deck game at Circus Circus with no 6-5 sign on it. So I started playing. The first time I got a blackjack the dealer paid me 6-5 odds on a $25 bet (the count was low). I challenged it, saying nowhere did signage indicate blackjacks pay 6-5. The dealer called over the flooman, and I repeated the same thing. He then opened a bunch of drawers until he found a sign that said "blackjack pays 6-5," and put it on the table with a self-righteous look on his face. I indicated that sign wasn't on the table at the time I made the bet. He basically said "tough." So I asked to speak to the casino manager on duty. I was told him name and where I might find him. It took some time to locate him but I eventually tracked him down and told him the story. This was in another part of the casino, by a roulette table. After hearing the story he told the roulette dealer to give me $7.50, which he did. So the call to Gaming was averted.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
boymimbo
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April 30th, 2010 at 7:12:12 AM permalink
I'm with you on this one Wizard, except I don't know why you got a roulette dealer to pay you $7.50 at the blackjack table!!! :)

The Blue Jays (The Las Vegas AAA club is a Blue Jays affiliate) this year instituted an unadvertised service policy where they charge a $2 at the box office at their games for buying a ticket. Normally, I buy the cheap $11 tickets and sit up top, so I purchased the $11 tickets and was told that the tickets were $13 because of the $2 service charge. I asked to see where it advertised and he showed me some very small print (think 6 font) on the bottom of the placard. When you go to the window, an advertisement for the tickets available show the price of the game without the service charge. Normally I go to 15 - 20 games a year.

I went on to the Blue Jays website to look for the information on the service charge and it was found on the Ballpark A-Z information page, which had nothing to do with ticket prices. I went to other teams' site and found that indeed, alot of teams charge "same day" fees but they are well advertised on the website (in order to encourage ticket sales).

So I wrote an email to the Blue Jays head office (president, ticket sales director) and asked how I could buy an $11 ticket for $11 and that the prices were unadvertised. This was two weeks ago. I have yet to hear back from them, and until I do, no more games for me. It's just the principle, even though it's 1/2 a pretzel.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
DJTeddyBear
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April 30th, 2010 at 7:51:43 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I'm with you on this one Wizard, except I don't know why you got a roulette dealer to pay you $7.50 at the blackjack table!!! :)

You missed the part where the Wiz had to search out the manager himself. When he found him, he was at Roulette.

But the part that got me was, I was surprised that they had units less than $1 on a Roulette table!
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
ruascott
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April 30th, 2010 at 9:47:31 AM permalink
I was playing a video 3-card poker at a Racino in Indiana and after getting a straight I swear I wasn't paid any ante bonus whatsover, even though I won the hand.

BTW are there any casinos that pay the full 1-4-6-30-40 on the PP any more? I've seen them online, but from what I've read that is rare.
Wizard
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April 30th, 2010 at 11:36:49 AM permalink
Quote: ruascott


BTW are there any casinos that pay the full 1-4-6-30-40 on the PP any more? I've seen them online, but from what I've read that is rare.



I'm pretty sure the Barona in San Diego county has full pay Three Card Poker. When I was last there, which was about three years, the Pioneer in Laughlin did too.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
Wizard
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April 30th, 2010 at 11:49:20 AM permalink
Okay, I've been thinking about the annual cost to players of the Ante Bonus mistake in Three Card Poker. Here is how I worked it out:

From the 2009 Gaming Revenue Report, the revenue from "other games" in 2009 was $126,912,000. Let's assume 20% of that was from Three Card Poker, or $25,382,400. Assuming the player bet equally between the Pairplus and Ante, the average house edge is 5.325%. So divide the revenue by the house edge to get the handle (total amount bet), which is $476,664,789. We already assumed half the bets are on the Ante, so the Ante handle would be $238,332,394.

Next, let's assume the probability of a dealer Ante bonus error is 75%. I think it is a lot higher, but I'll be conservative for the sake of argument. The next part I won't detail, but I show if the dealer didn't pay the Ante bonus when the player lost, it would cost the player 0.0007214, in expected value. Miplet posted earlier a value of 0.000755457665881, which is probably right. I assumed independent hands, to keep it simple, but he probably assumed both hands came from the same deck. The difference is minor.

So, we multiply the Ante handle, by the probability of an error, by the cost in EV of the Ante bonus error and get an annual cost to the players of $128,955. Please take that with a grain of salt, because some of these assumptions were just educated guesses. I'll probably make an "ask the wizard" question about of this, so feel free to challenge me before writing about this to a wider audience.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
ruascott
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April 30th, 2010 at 1:03:45 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'm pretty sure the Barona in San Diego county has full pay Three Card Poker. When I was last there, which was about three years, the Pioneer in Laughlin did too.




Its too bad. I enjoyed playing 3-card, and with the full pay I'd be willing to play the PP bet just for the enjoyment of bigger wins. But the HA on the usual paychart is now just too awful, and it pretty much ruins the entire game for me. Like 6-5 B/J, the casino greed is ruining the entire experience.
Nareed
Nareed
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April 30th, 2010 at 1:20:32 PM permalink
Maybe we should consider a calss action suit for lost wagers :P

Seriously, it's a good idea to 1) check the pair+ pay table and 2) ask the dealer "Do you pay the ante bonus on losing hands?"
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
DJTeddyBear
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April 30th, 2010 at 1:57:18 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

1) check the pair+ pay table and 2) ask the dealer "Do you pay the ante bonus on losing hands?"

Don't bother. Just read the rules as posted and/or ask to see them if they aren't posted.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paigowdan
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April 30th, 2010 at 1:57:19 PM permalink
The amount of lost winnings per table isn't much at all. Assuming Mike's yearly figure of $128,955, and 1,500 TCP tables out there in gambling land:

$128,955 / 1,500 tables of TCP = $85.97 per table per year.
OR $7.16 per table per month.

Not much of an effect, but I will say this: the last time I played TCP at Sunset Station, I immediately hit a mini Royal and went to playing BLACK on the ANTE. If I had a losing ANTE bonus hand where I was NOT paid on the ANTE Bonus, I would have been apoplectic and had gone to the Gaming Commission. Luckily this did not happen. I then hit two "pair hands" in a row, followed by a three of a kind - all with $20 on the Pair Plus and $100 ANTE/PLAY. A $2,000+ takedown on a $100 buy-in. I am STILL looking to repeat that on TCP, turning a windfall into a loan...

Also, the Full pay table of 40-30-6-4-1 is to blame for Three Card Poker's failure on its initial release in Atlantic City many years ago. The 2.3% house edge of the full pay table couldn't hold anything much for the house, hemorrhaged when it dumped, so the game initially had a "funk" to it.

It was later re-released in Mississippi with the 40-30-6-3-1 table (7.3%) and did well, and the rest is history.

If I see any casino willing to risk a small house edge on a big paytable bet, it is the Barona.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
ruascott
ruascott
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April 30th, 2010 at 4:44:41 PM permalink
Hey Wizard,

Whats the chance that you'll add 3-Card to your games list?
Nareed
Nareed
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April 30th, 2010 at 5:21:57 PM permalink
Quote: ruascott

Hey Wizard,

Whats the chance that you'll add 3-Card to your games list?



He already has, at the Wizard of Odds site. Cut and paste:

https://wizardofodds.com/play/threecardpoker/
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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April 30th, 2010 at 8:27:15 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

He already has, at the Wizard of Odds site. Cut and paste....

Or just click:
https://wizardofodds.com/play/threecardpoker/
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
trip10s
trip10s
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May 3rd, 2010 at 10:09:50 AM permalink
Quote: ruascott

BTW are there any casinos that pay the full 1-4-6-30-40 on the PP any more? I've seen them online, but from what I've read that is rare.


The Golden Moon and Silver Star in Pearl River, Mississippi both pay the full 1-4-6-30-40.

I didn't realize that this wasn't the norm anymore. That's disheartening.
pacomartin
pacomartin
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May 3rd, 2010 at 11:00:03 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Okay, I've been thinking about the annual cost to players of the Ante Bonus mistake in Three Card Poker. Here is how I worked it out:

From the 2009 Gaming Revenue Report, the revenue from "other games" in 2009 was $126,912,000. Let's assume 20% of that was from Three Card Poker, or $25,382,400.



Correction for the Wizard

Before you put this in your column make the following correction. Three Card Poker is more popular than you assumed. Check the Gaming Revenue Report. Three card poker is it's own itemized line and revenue was $134,181,000 in the year 2009.
Wizard
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May 5th, 2010 at 4:43:19 PM permalink
Thanks! Good catch. That brings the cost of that error in 2009 to $682,000.

I hope you won't mind if I make a semi-fake question in my next column about this, under your name as the asker.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
pacomartin
pacomartin
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May 5th, 2010 at 5:07:23 PM permalink
No problem. You put a semi-fake question (and my paper) in your ATW #232 which led to an interesting contact with Professor Henk Tijms of the Netherlands. A lot of people read your column.

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