Pai Gow Poker Surrender

If you could surrender in Pai Gow Poker, and get half your bet back, how bad would your hand need to be to surrender?

My guess is a Queen high pai gow.

If a casino offered this, would it swing Pai Gow Poker to a player advantage game?

The game would have a huge player advantage. Since there are 2 hands you make saying 'queen high pai gow' is not specific enough. A pair of deuces with a 9 - 7 up front would be a surrender hand, but a pair of deuces with an Ace - king would not. I am sure all king high pai gows would be surrendered, too. Probably the weaker ace high pai gows, too.

Quote: FinsRule

If you could surrender in Pai Gow Poker, and get half your bet back, how bad would your hand need to be to surrender?

My guess is a Queen high pai gow.

If a casino offered this, would it swing Pai Gow Poker to a player advantage game?

No, it wouldn't be unprofitable for a casino to offer, but would cause dealer delays and operational problems for the game.

It was offered a while back, at the Sahara in LV ages ago...

The cutoff points to surrender losing half your bet (according to Stanford Wong in his book Optimal Strategy for Pai Gow Poker) are:
pair of 10's with a 9-8 two card side
9's with a 10-8 or worse
8's with a J-9 or worse
7's with J-10
6's with Q-8
5's with Q-10
4's with QJ
3's with K-2
2's with K-8
All Pai Gow hands.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it wouldn't be unprofitable for a casino to offer

I assume this is a typo. It WOULD be unprofittable for a casino to offer it. It would be profittable for the player, though.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it wouldn't be unprofitable for a casino to offer, but would cause dealer delays and operational problems for the game.

It was offered a while back, at the Sahara in LV ages ago...

The cutoff points to surrender losing half your bet (according to Stanford Wong in his book Optimal Strategy for Pai Gow Poker) are:
pair of 10's with a 9-8 two card side
9's with a 10-8 or worse
8's with a J-9 or worse
7's with J-10
6's with Q-8
5's with Q-10
4's with QJ
3's with K-2
2's with K-8
All Pai Gow hands.

Dan, thanks for the info. I would have never thought surrendering a pair of 10s would ever be a good idea. I guess if you have 10, 10, 9, 8, 4, 3, 2.... it means the dealer is even more likely to have a better pair.

Thanks again.

Quote: FinsRule

Dan, thanks for the info. I would have never thought surrendering a pair of 10s would ever be a good idea. I guess if you have 10, 10, 9, 8, 4, 3, 2.... it means the dealer is even more likely to have a better pair.

Thanks again.

I think the actual reason would be your virtually zero chance of WINNING the hand--you would push fairly often.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it wouldn't be unprofitable for a casino to offer, but would cause dealer delays and operational problems for the game.

It was offered a while back, at the Sahara in LV ages ago...

The cutoff points to surrender losing half your bet (according to Stanford Wong in his book Optimal Strategy for Pai Gow Poker) are:
pair of 10's with a 9-8 two card side
9's with a 10-8 or worse
8's with a J-9 or worse
7's with J-10
6's with Q-8
5's with Q-10
4's with QJ
3's with K-2
2's with K-8
All Pai Gow hands.

I'm very surprised that the best no-pair hands wouldn't be playable--something like AKQJ9xx, at least. Since the existence of a two pair hand in itself increases the likelihood of any other given hand also having two pair by 20%, I would imagine having a pai gow in your own hand significantly increases the likelihood of the dealer having one (pairs are that much harder to make)--which would make a very high pai gow playable, it would seem.