Name the Limits of Fair Play

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March 16th, 2011 at 11:16:12 AM permalink

I voted #1 despite the fact that counting is not allowed. Unless you lose or are not detected as a counter by the ever-so-fair-minded house

Nareed

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March 16th, 2011 at 11:21:52 AM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
2. Strategy plus being flashed some hole card information is okay: I'll use the information given to me, that I did not attempt to additionally obtain.

Dan, you cannot possibly expect anyone not to make use of information obtained from a flashed hole card. I'll repeat the scenario I posed to you on the other thread:

If you're holding Q,10,5 in 3CP and see the delaer flash a king, would you still pay the play bet because it's good strategy to bet it when holding Q,10,5 agaisnt an unkown hand? Or would you fold because you know you're going to lose.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

rdw4potus

rdw4potus

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March 16th, 2011 at 11:27:09 AM permalink

I go for #2. I'll use any information that I'm given, but I won't act overtly to gain new info or receive extra payment (I'm not the guy with his head on the table trying to see the holecard). Along that line, I don't consider unrequested card information from other players to be collusion. If the guy at the end of the table wants to tell me that he's playing AAK in 3CP or KKKAAxx in PGP, I'm happy to use that knowledge.

"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 11:42:13 AM permalink

Nareed,
I know...I know...can't stop it. ALL that really can be done is to bear down on dealers flashing the hole cards.

I am openly of the opinion that only #1, the first selction, is the only truly ethical selection.
In fact, any OTHER choice is an operational problem for casinos and the business.
Looking at the voting results explains why casino pit personnel frequently have low opinion of many players.

Now Nareed, on the Three-Card question, I would play the hand and take the known loss, because it would bother me to "take a petty win" via folding when I KNOW I had bet and recieved cards for a losing hand that I would have played out, on the hopes of a dealer not qualifying. I would tell the dealer "I KNOW you have a king" AND play out the hand, and he would see his King - and know his game protection needs addressing. I would be happy and foolish to think that many gamblers are like this.

I have occasionally seen gamblers give back money, and most are angry when doing so only because the dealers are messing up the game via game protection mistakes when they're trying to have fun on a clean game. But too many are trying to have fun without it being clean.

Indeed, - for many players - their juice from gambling doesn't come from the clean play of the cards or dice, but sometimes in seeing what they can get away with.

Three Card poker was "hit" very hard at times from hole carding, and it forced Shufflemaster to produce a "flush mount" version of their table card dispenser, no pun intended.
Another example of how the industry has to adapt to gamblers, on all sides.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Jufo81

Jufo81

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March 16th, 2011 at 11:56:43 AM permalink

There could be one more choice: Is it ok to steal a quick peek at the cards of the player sitting next to you and use his cards info to make strategy decisions in casino poker type games (such as Caribbean Stud poker or Texas Holdem bonus, where the info of seeing 2-10 extra cards might affect optimal fold/raise decisions). This falls somewhere between choices #1 and #2.

Does choice N include all preceding choices? I chose #4 but I don't agree with #3 being acceptable behaviour, so I consider #1, #2, #4 ok, and #3, #5, #6, #7 not ok.

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 12:06:10 PM permalink

Jufo,
Choosing #4 is fine: choose the highest number you find acceptable, even if you feel a lower one in between is a no-no.
#4 is a good choice - because MANY players feel it to be true, whether or not it is.
This is all about your say and your positions on what is fair play - doesn't matter what the casino thinks or how gaming constructed its laws.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Nareed

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March 16th, 2011 at 12:08:13 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
Nareed,
I know...I know...can't stop it. ALL that really can be done is to bear down on dealers flashing the hole cards.

Yes, exactly. On the dealers, not the players.

Quote:
Now Nareed, on the Three-Card question, I would play the hand and take the known loss, because it would bother me to "take a petty win" via folding when I KNOW I had bet and recieved cards for a losing hand that I would have played out, on the hopes of a dealer not qualifying.

Even if it was your last bet of the session/day/bankroll? Even if you had made a bet 4 times bigger than normal for some reason? I find that hard to believe. Oh, I believe you mean it. I just don't expect you to keep on believing it if it actually happened. Me, I wouldn't do the play bet if I knew I had a loosing hand, even if I were playing for fun.

I may correct a misspay in my favor, if I notice. But I won't pretend I didn't see somethign I saw.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

DJTeddyBear

DJTeddyBear

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March 16th, 2011 at 12:23:04 PM permalink

You should have made it a multiple choice poll.

Many people consider it acceptable to keep a payout that it too high, but do not intentionally do anything or verbally try to induce such a thing.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ �� Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 12:23:52 PM permalink

Quote: Nareed
Even if it was your last bet of the session/day/bankroll? Even if you had made a bet 4 times bigger than normal for some reason? I find that hard to believe. Oh, I believe you mean it. I just don't expect you to keep on believing it if it actually happened.

Nareed, I've done it myself when it happened. It doesn't matter if it is my last bet money, I am NOT at the casino with the mortgage payment.
I don't take what isn't mine because I don't want what isn't mine.

I pay for my things, I don't steal them, and I don't take gifts of a questionable nature.
Most of us actually operate this way, except when in a casino, for some reason.

And I have seen this good behavior from a few of our players, but - very, very rarely.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

clarkacal

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March 16th, 2011 at 12:27:31 PM permalink

Quote: buzzpaff
I voted #1 despite the fact that counting is not allowed. Unless you lose or are not detected as a counter by the ever-so-fair-minded house

Losing doesn't protect you. I was down 3k and got kicked one time. They weren't mean about it though.

Paigowdan, in a previous thread you stated you were playing a game and the dealer paid the table when she shouldn't have. You alerted the dealer costing players money. I have even seen players uninvolved in a hand point out a dealer mistake costing a player money. IMO this type of transgression is worse than hole carding, past posting, spooking, etc. To enforce your ethical standards on someone else's bankroll, and on a player that might disagree with your opinion on gambling ethics crosses the line. Even if you were getting paid in a hand along with other players and you feel you shouldn't have been, I think the right thing to do is stay silent and explain it to the floor later. You could pay it back then if it makes you feel better.

Nareed

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March 16th, 2011 at 12:39:22 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
Nareed, I've done it myself when it happened. It doesn't matter if it is my last bet money, I am NOT at the casino with the mortgage payment.
I don't take what isn't mine because I don't want what isn't mine.

I consider gambling as spending money in return for entertainment, so naturally I don't bet mroe than I can afford to lose. I also don't believe in taking what's not mine. but we differ in what a flashed hole card means. I agree it's a mistake which 1) gives the player the edge and 2) shoots the business model right between the eyes. But it's the casino's problem, not the players'.

Quote:
I pay for my things, I don't steal them, and I don't take gifts of a questionable nature.
Most of us actually operate this way, except when in a casino, for some reason.

If you were a pro football player or coach and the officials called a penalty in your favor, would you correct them? If an opposing player dropped the ball, would you give it back?

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 12:51:23 PM permalink

Quote: clarkacal
Losing doesn't protect you. I was down 3k and got kicked one time. They weren't mean about it though.

Paigowdan, in a previous thread you stated you were playing a game and the dealer paid the table when she shouldn't have. You alerted the dealer costing players money. I have even seen players uninvolved in a hand point out a dealer mistake costing a player money. IMO this type of transgression is worse than hole carding, past posting, spooking, etc. To enforce your ethical standards on someone else's bankroll, and on a player that might disagree with your opinion on gambling ethics crosses the line. Even if you were getting paid in a hand along with other players and you feel you shouldn't have been, I think the right thing to do is stay silent and explain it to the floor later. You could pay it back then if it makes you feel better.

This is like saying, "I witnessed a crime, - but it would be unethical to stop those who are recieving these illicit benefits from getting away with it!" Huh?
I would report an auto theft, a purse snatching, a kickback scheme at a company, etc., without any problem.

Clarkacal, I always report dealer mistakes that benefit players - exactly as I do dealer mistakes that short-change players! How are they any different, as we are discussing fair play here...

Also, the game on which the dealer would have paid the table was on a live table game that I am the patent holder of, and I wanted to see the game dealt correctly, and I knew the dealer, though I'd say this on any table game. I answer the player, "I'd also point it out if you were short-changed."

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

thecesspit

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March 16th, 2011 at 12:54:04 PM permalink

I can understand warning a dealer that you can see their hole cards but STILL playing as if you hadn't and giving up an extra bet you know you will lose? That's crazy. Fold there and then, tell the dealer the problem and carry on.

Giving up a bet you know will lose is beyond the point of being fair to the house.

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 12:57:07 PM permalink

Quote: Nareed
If you were a pro football player or coach and the officials called a penalty in your favor, would you correct them? If an opposing player dropped the ball, would you give it back?

No, I wouldn't, true - but that is allowed as official paramaters of the game.
Paramaters of a casino game are it's rule, - not the dealer's mistakes.

As for a wrongly called penalty in someone's favor - that the floorman's job equivelant.
If he says, "pay the player - let it go...but don't show your hole card again" then the payer gets paid, and 100% okay with me.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

buzzpaff

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March 16th, 2011 at 1:22:24 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
This is like saying, "I witnessed a crime, - but it would be unethical to stop those who are recieving these illicit benefits from getting away with it!" Huh?
I would report an auto theft, a purse snatching, a kickback scheme at a company, etc., without any problem.

Clarkacal, I always report dealer mistakes that benefit players - exactly as I do dealer mistakes that short-change players! How are they any different, as we are discussing fair play here...

Also, the game on which the dealer would have paid the table was on a live table game that I am the patent holder of, and I wanted to see the game dealt correctly, and I knew the dealer, though I'd say this on any table game. I answer the player, "I'd also point it out if you were short-changed."

If you were at a casino other than yours and you saw a known counter playing, would you report that crime ??

Nareed

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March 16th, 2011 at 1:30:54 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
Paramaters of a casino game are it's rule, - not the dealer's mistakes.

If I see a sign at the table saying a player may not take advantage of a flashed hole card, I'll go look for a different casino.

Quote:
As for a wrongly called penalty in someone's favor - that the floorman's job equivelant.
If he says, "pay the player - let it go...but don't show your hole card again" then the payer gets paid, and 100% okay with me.

Fair enough. But I still wouldn't call the floorman each time a dealer flashed a card.

In point of fact I've never seen a dealer flash a card at 3CP or any other game I've played. At the Fremont in 3CP they even put a cut card beneath the dealer's cards before removing them from the shuffler. That's what casinos and dealers ought to do, rather than balme players for taking advantage of their mistakes.

BTW I did see a dealer set his hands wrong at PGP. I dind't really notice, but another player did and corrected him. So I went from a win to a push, and so did the other player. Fine. That's fair of him and I said nothing. But if I'd noticed the dealer's error I wouldn't have said anyhting either. They way he'd originally set the cards was a valid one, complying with the rules of PGP. Whether or not it complied witht he house way is a different matter, and not the players' responsibility.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

clarkacal

clarkacal

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March 16th, 2011 at 1:41:15 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
This is like saying, "I witnessed a crime, - but it would be unethical to stop those who are recieving these illicit benefits from getting away with it!" Huh?
I would report an auto theft, a purse snatching, a kickback scheme at a company, etc., without any problem.

Most people just don't put collecting on a dealer error into the same category with those examples. It's more like snatching a snatched purse from a purse snatcher.

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 1:51:58 PM permalink

Quote: Nareed

BTW I did see a dealer set his hands wrong at PGP. I dind't really notice, but another player did and corrected him. So I went from a win to a push, and so did the other player. Fine. That's fair of him and I said nothing.

Last night I had this, too. I was playing PGP with a co-worker from work (a floorman), and the dealer missed a flush, and set it as a weak pair; the flush setting had almost the same top. I pointed it out, knowing that I went from a push to a loss. I didn't hesitate. My floorman friend said, "I respect that," and while he lost as a result, too.
Beautiful: First time I ever heard that kind of a positive comment. Ever.

Edit: Someone commented to me, "You should work for freakin' gaming or something....." I took it as a compliment, but he meant it as an evil thing.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 2:27:55 PM permalink

Quote: clarkacal
Most people just don't put collecting on a dealer error into the same category with those examples. It's more like snatching a snatched purse from a purse snatcher.

THIS is the attitude that so many gamblers have towards the casino house and gaming industry!

That we are ALL a bunch of lying, thieving, money-grubbing, no good sacks o' stinking sh]t - who should be....beaten to death....with lead pipes....in a dark alleyway.

I swear, If I posted THIS as a poll along with "The Casino is your friend...," it would be 100% to 0%!
I actually LIKE some dealers!

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Jufo81

Jufo81

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March 16th, 2011 at 2:48:01 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
THIS is the attitude that so many gamblers have towards the casino house and gaming industry!

So, is that a problem? You just have to live with that.

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 3:15:33 PM permalink

Yes we have to live with that - but it adds to the expense that the players have to pay.
So you players "have to live with that, too."
In other words:
1. We have to bump up the house edge and table limits - not because we want to - but we have to pay for Security, Surveillance, extra training, etc., to police the players who cannot police themselves, or who have "boundary problems." And there a lot of them. A LOT. We actually want the players to have a value that's good for BOTH them and us. And we want a positive experience for them and for us.
2. Loss of business; problem players arguing to get paid on a nefarious player bet action causes other players to leave, and causes...
3. Interruption on games
4. Lower Quality of table games experience.
5. DEALER BURN-OUT! I am your poster boy...

The thing about this poll is that it can be considered a casino cost experiment, too.
If you had players who really played by the rules, that is
- best strategy
- use information only properly attained
- by not using information from a player action or a dealer error
Games would have a lower house edge, and the table games experience would be great every time.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

RobSinger

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March 16th, 2011 at 3:22:42 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
THIS is the attitude that so many gamblers have towards the casino house and gaming industry!

That we are ALL a bunch of lying, thieving, money-grubbing, no good sacks o' stinking sh]t - who should be....beaten to death....with lead pipes....in a dark alleyway.

I swear, If I posted THIS as a poll along with "The Casino is your friend...," it would be 100% to 0%!
I actually LIKE some dealers!

I happen to consider the casinos in general as my friends because of my successes with them. But who wouldn't have the feeling that they're greedy outfits by the stunts they pull? The strategically placed ATM's & Cash Advance machines laid out all over the floors with their outrageous fees; the enticing music; the attractive, scantily dressed cocktail waitresses who's job it is to keep patrons liquored up so they'll hopefully keep on playing; loose pouring bartenders making it more enjoyable for vp players to lose; & the overall atmosphere that says "you really want to be here more than you want to be home". It's a basic message that has no shame in coming right out and saying they want all of your money regardless of the hardships losing may cause you.

If anything, it's the management people rag on and not Joe employee.

boymimbo

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March 16th, 2011 at 3:47:11 PM permalink

I voted #2. When I think about it, I am fine with number 4.

In Pai Gow poker, for example, you rarely get a break with an obvious player strategy mistake, the mucked hand where the lower hand is higher than than higher hand. This is clearly a player error that is not forgiven by the house -- the player loses. The pit may give the player a break, but it is up to their discretion. In this sense, because the casino doesn't forgive me for making an obvious mistake (and I've done that once or twice, when I'm tired), I don't care if the hand is set improperly on the dealer side in Pai Gow Poker, if a commission is miscalculated in my direction, or an improper payout in the player favor is given. The casino doesn't give me a break for my erroneous play.

Similarly, in Blackjack Switch, I had a dealer who paid out on a 22 when it was clearly a push. I didn't say anything. Casinos leave it up to the player to determine what the basic strategy should be knowing full well that most players do not know the basic strategy for blackjack switch. Even though the HA is advertised at .16 percent or something like that, most players play a much, much worse game on that table that makes the true HA much higher.

Here's a deal. Change the house rules so that all payouts are published on slot machines and table games. On table games, offer a strategy card for each game. When a player makes a strategy error, the dealer points it out and asks the player if they would like to reconsider their choice. Then, up the house edge on blackjack, craps, and all of the games to a percentage that's fair, based on perfect play. As well, cut off all players who are slightly inebriated, stop the craps dealers from asking for center bets and get rid of all high HA side bets.

Then, maybe I'll consider giving back the casino's money when they pay me for a hand I shouldn't be paid for.

----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!

kp

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March 16th, 2011 at 3:58:37 PM permalink

Quote: boymimbo
When a player makes a strategy error, the dealer points it out and asks the player if they would like to reconsider their choice.

Good point. Until it's the casino's job to point out my mistakes that's in their favor, it's not my job to point out their mistakes that's in my favor. I can't see one poker player honestly telling another one that they really have the flush so be careful about calling their bet. I won't do anything dishonest to try and make the dealer make a mistake, but it is up to each player at the table, including the dealer, to play to their best ability and try to win.

miplet

miplet

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March 16th, 2011 at 3:58:49 PM permalink

I voted #4. #3 is worse in my opinion, and crosses the line.

�Man Babes� #AxelFabulous

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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March 16th, 2011 at 4:13:53 PM permalink

Let's talk about the specific act of accepting money after dealer error in pai gow. First of all, my casino will not give me the official copy of their house rules, so I do not actually officially know what they are. I cannot ever correct a dealer error, what I can do is SUGGEST that he made an error and have him check with a superior to either agree with me or disagree. And you always do not mention the main difference between going to a store and buying something and gambling at a casino--- one is a contest between two combatants, the other is not. As best I can tell, it is up to the dealer to police his table, with his captain (pit boss) right behind him. It is up to them to decide if anything against the rules of the casino has occurred, it is not up to me. How many of you have noticed your spedometer at 70 in a 65 and drove straight to the police station to self report?

miplet

miplet

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March 16th, 2011 at 4:18:30 PM permalink

Quote: SOOPOO
How many of you have noticed your spedometer at 70 in a 65 and drove straight to the police station to self report?

I had co-worker (while whe was working ) ask a police officer if he had a warrent out ,and he did.

�Man Babes� #AxelFabulous

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 5:15:44 PM permalink

Quote: SOOPOO
And you always do not mention the main difference between going to a store and buying something and gambling at a casino--- one is a contest between two combatants, the other is not. As best I can tell, it is up to the dealer to police his table, with his captain (pit boss) right behind him. It is up to them to decide if anything against the rules of the casino has occurred, it is not up to me.

Gamblers and the casino house are not combatants. Just the gamblers, the dealers say.....we got to smile and talk nice as we are poked in the eye by shot-takers and our own floormen, - in order to be professional. We vent here and at bars about the casino conditions and even about you/us gamblers. [Can ya take it like a man! - joke :) ]

So view Gamblers and the casino as partners. A gambler is playing strategy, luck, variance, through rules of play, and the casino house is to simply implement the rules. When a player wins huge on a clean game, as a I dealer am happy for him, (he won it fair and square), and I HOPE my floorman isn't sweating the money.

After giving up a Royal, I had a floorman say to me, "You SLUT!" Kidding, though there is truth in jest.

It is up to the dealer to police his table, but policing also includes spotting an error after the fact - as in hey - that's wrong - gotta give it back when the floorman tells ya - much in the same way if a player is short-changed, WE gotta give it back.

Quote: SOOPOO
How many of you have noticed your spedometer at 70 in a 65 and drove straight to the police station to self report?

We don't drive to the police station to report ourselves, because really, the honor system works like shit with the average human being. But you accept a ticket without argument with the cop, [and go to ticketbusters :) ]. Why argue with the floorman if you know you were overpaid??

Oh...and it is messed up for a casino not to publish its PGP house way.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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March 16th, 2011 at 5:26:48 PM permalink

Dan- I never said if the pit boss notices the dealer error and has him correct it at my detriment that I find that unacceptable. On the contrary, I fully understand that that is his job. `I know this is a stretch.... but think about our 5th amendment protection against self incrimination. Isn't that analagous to self 'giving the casino back money they just gave me even though they shouldn't have'?

buzzpaff

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March 16th, 2011 at 5:32:45 PM permalink

The thing about this poll is that it can be considered a casino cost experiment, too.
If you had players who really played by the rules, that is
- best strategy
- use information only properly attained
- by not using information from a player action or a dealer error
Games would have a lower house edge, and the table games experience would be great every time.

And counters would still be barred even in that perfect world !

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 5:38:44 PM permalink

I know, I'm sure you're fine with a floorman's call.

But it is a stretch to plead the 5th in not returning a table game overpayment.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Paigowdan

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March 16th, 2011 at 5:45:15 PM permalink

Quote: buzzpaff
And counters would still be barred even in that perfect world !

No, they wouldn't, - that's the thing. New Jersey can't bar anyone, and many Vegas places wouldn't. They may flat-bet them.

I feel card-counting is okay, because it is based on shown cards. You can't play a BJ game without exposing the cards as part of the play of the hand. This is different than flashing hole cards, which are supposed to be hidden until the play of the dealer's hand.
Casinos can:
1. Reduce cut-card penetration.
2. Set tables limits for selected players, or more fairly, set posted table limites very narrowly ($15-$50, etc)
3. Use Continuous shufflers to dispense cards.
4. They cannot backroom them, and I wouldn't want to. I hate hearing quotes about those old horrible days, a very dark history.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

buzzpaff

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March 16th, 2011 at 5:54:22 PM permalink

Yes they can do all those things. But in general they bar counters, change the rules for them ( you sir can not bet as much as losers )
If the table limits are posted and continuous shufflers are used, this is quite different. But innovation in the pits is non-existent. Even the dealer chip tray and the method of re-filling it is as outdated as Red Skelton's coin changer in The Good Humor Man "

kp

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March 17th, 2011 at 9:28:45 AM permalink

I think most people would see "Verbally confusing the dealer", or any matter of trying to confuse the dealer in order to gain an edge, as an unacceptable practice. How about if the casino allowed the player to buy the dealer a drink in hopes that the dealer will play at sub-optimum levels? Would that be considered unfair? Do people think it is fair for the casino to be pushing free drinks to the players for the same reason?

FarFromVegas

FarFromVegas

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March 17th, 2011 at 9:32:06 AM permalink

Quote: kp
I think most people would see "Verbally confusing the dealer", or any matter of trying to confuse the dealer in order to gain an edge, as an unacceptable practice. How about if the casino allowed the player to buy the dealer a drink in hopes that the dealer will play at sub-optimum levels? Would that be considered unfair? Do people think it is fair for the casino to be pushing free drinks to the players for the same reason?

Yes, because I have never accepted one of the drinks when I was gambling. I did once take a glass of champagne when my sister won a jackpot and we were finished for the night, but otherwise it's soda or coffee.

Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts. Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.

Nareed

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March 17th, 2011 at 9:39:52 AM permalink

Quote: FarFromVegas
Yes, because I have never accepted one of the drinks when I was gambling. I did once take a glass of champagne when my sister won a jackpot and we were finished for the night, but otherwise it's soda or coffee.

Exactly. No one forces you to drink while gambling. And if you ask for soda, coffee or water, the waitress will bring it too.

Last time I ordered a cocktail and found out just what a bad idea that was for me. Since then I only order diet coke or bottled water.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

buzzpaff

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March 17th, 2011 at 10:46:20 AM permalink

2. Set tables limits for selected players, or more fairly, set posted table limites very narrowly ($15-$50, etc)

I can just see a casino doing that. Telling 1 player his bets are restricted, but you other 6 losers can bet whatever you want.

buzzpaff

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March 17th, 2011 at 10:57:04 AM permalink

New Jersey can't bar anyone, and many Vegas places wouldn't. They may flat-bet them.

No Vegas place will not bar a successful counter if his play will seriously affect the drop !!

By flat betting I assume he can not raise his bets ant any time. Just grind along. In other words not be able to bet like the 9,999 losers. Sort of barred in place.

Dorothy had it right when question the so called integrity of the house.

My goodness, what a fuss you're making! Well naturally, when you go around picking on things weaker than you are. Why, you're nothing but a great big coward!

Wake up Dan We are not in Kansas anymore. !!~

Nareed

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March 17th, 2011 at 10:58:01 AM permalink

Quote: buzzpaff
I can just see a casino doing that. Telling 1 player his bets are restricted, but you other 6 losers can bet whatever you want.

What if what the 6 loosers want is to bet $500 on the restricted player's hand?

Ok, even if that's not allowed, the counter hires me to bet for him. I learn BS and up my bets to a proportional amount of what his restricted limits are. easy as pie.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

buzzpaff

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March 17th, 2011 at 11:14:49 AM permalink

Nareed ever heard of Ken Uston ? It's called team play. I never said the house was stupid, just greedy !

RobSinger

RobSinger

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March 17th, 2011 at 12:26:27 PM permalink

When I go into a casino I understand they will do anything legal to separate me from my money--and as much of that as possible via whatever means possible, whether it can be considered morally responsible or not. I also know I'm only going in with no other purpose than to take their money. I'm not going in to have a good time, to feel the ambience, to kill some time, or chat with the bartenders. As such, I learned long ago that if you are to be consistently successful in attaining your goal of leaving with a profit, you too must use any legal method possible to accomplish that--regardless of the ethics or morals involved. Tit for tat as they say.

I saw the expansive "tipping in casinos" thread and I am one who never tips a casino employee unless they are serving me a drink or a meal. Lots of people think this is not ethical or reasonable, but for a person like me who has played as a profession, I am not the least bit concerned with how casino employees receive their pay, how much they earn, or if they can pay their bills or feed their families. It is, in fact, exactly how the casino feels about me. My only driver is profit, and tipping cuts into that especially when handpays - and in past years cashing in coins at the cashiers - is a very common occurrence.

Anything goes. Not taking complete advantage of casino mistakes or shying away from manipulating any part of your casino experience when it's in your best interest to do so, as long as you are not breaking any laws, is an entirely responsible format to follow if you are really there to succeed.

Paigowdan

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March 17th, 2011 at 12:47:12 PM permalink

Quote: buzzpaff
Wake up Dan We are not in Kansas anymore. !!~

I know, I know...and believe me I see it. I cannot and do not defend every action of every casino operator.
Some places sweat the money, and take inappropriate and distasteful actions against winning players.

My friend Charles saw at a downtown crap game he was on the boxman take the stick from the stickman - during a hot roll - and snap it in the air a few times, saying "Yeah...the stick is now all right."

Players were like "Oh Screw YOU, Boxman! I'm coloring up!"
They all colored up and left him a dead table.
Exactly what the supervisor wanted.
Just shameless, as is flat betting a BJ player on a table with any other player on it.
If a player is counting cards, I can see him being told "you're too good for us, - go play craps or Roulette, or the continuous shuffler."
That too is tacky, but it is better than flat betting.
I find nothing wrong with card-counting - my only concession to advantage play (card-counting actually falls under poll option #1 - allowable information)
If casinos sweat counters, use:
1. 50% deck penetration;
2. Post on the table a 3:1 bet range ($25-$75)
And stop sweating it. The only players you'll loose are the couters.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

buzzpaff

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March 17th, 2011 at 1:16:02 PM permalink

f casinos sweat counters, use:
1. 50% deck penetration;
2. Post on the table a 3:1 bet range ($25-$75)
And stop sweating it. The only players you'll loose are the couters.

If only it were true. 50% penetration means more shuffling, less hands dealt per hour and $25-$75 range would seiously affect the drop. Remember all those fellas who increases their wages significantly when winning cause " I am playing with the house's money ".

Instead of spending their money on increased security, tightening the game (6-5), etc. Why don't casino's pool some money for R&D and develop a better BJ product. If a high school dropout like me can figure out how BJ can be played so that the house edge increases as a players bet is increased without any change whatsoever in rules of play , payouts, odds, method of dealing, NO DAMN CHANGE AT ALL, imagine what the Wiz or some of the math guys here might develop with a proper reward. Right now patents are expensive, patent law is asinine ( first to invent, not first to file like the rest of the world ), and legal expenses to protect yourself from the BIG BOYS. Just google IGt Shufflemaster Action Gaming etc with the word lawsuit and see all the millions involved in settlements.
If you expect to be treatly fairly ??? Cowardly Lion: Shucks, folks, I'm speechless. Ha Ha!

buzzpaff

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March 17th, 2011 at 1:22:01 PM permalink

ROB SINGER
I saw the expansive "tipping in casinos" thread and I am one who never tips a casino employee unless they are serving me a drink or a meal.

So you can tip the cocktail waitress, the server at a restaurant, etc. But not the dealer at BJ. Because that is business and screw him.
Be right back. Gonna look up selfish bastard in the dictionary!
Thought so. Had your picture there!

Dorothy: What would you do with a brain if you had one?

RobSinger

RobSinger

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March 17th, 2011 at 1:42:41 PM permalink

Quote: buzzpaff
ROB SINGER
I saw the expansive "tipping in casinos" thread and I am one who never tips a casino employee unless they are serving me a drink or a meal.

So you can tip the cocktail waitress, the server at a restaurant, etc. But not the dealer at BJ. Because that is business and screw him.
Be right back. Gonna look up selfish bastard in the dictionary!
Thought so. Had your picture there!

Dorothy: What would you do with a brain if you had one?

Why be offensive?

The BJ dealer to me, is no different than a handpay floor attendant. They all hope I come into the casino and give them my business and they'll all pretend they hope I win a fortune, but what they really want me to do is lose. Sure, they'll dilute their feelings into trying to make believe it's nothing personal and I'm just a number and not a name. But the bottom line is keeping their jobs, and they only way they can do that is for people to lose.

I have never figured out why people believe it is up to them to help pay casino employees' salaries. If I've just won $4000 at the BJ tables or elsewhere, that $40 or whatever table players tip would fill my tank up for the trip home. A BJ dealer couldn't care less whether or not I'm able to buy the groceries or pay the electric bill as I'm sitting at the table, and I have the same feeling towards him. He's never going to give me anything for free and neither am I to him. I happen to believe that people who tip inside casinos are incompetent sheep, ready and willing to make up all kinds of excuses for why they do not win on most visits. One of their reasons of course, is giving away their money to people who don't deserve it just because they're in a momentary euphoria of a win.

DJTeddyBear

DJTeddyBear

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March 17th, 2011 at 1:45:30 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
2. Post on the table a 3:1 bet range ($25-$75)
And stop sweating it. The only players you'll loose are the counters.

... And the martingalers.

That's why the spread is so high to begin with.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ �� Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Paigowdan

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March 17th, 2011 at 1:47:23 PM permalink

Quote: buzzpaff
Why don't casino's pool some money for R&D and develop a better BJ product. If a high school dropout like me can figure out how BJ can be played so that the house edge increases as a players bet is increased without any change whatsoever in rules of play , payouts, odds, method of dealing, NO DAMN CHANGE AT ALL, imagine what the Wiz or some of the math guys here might develop with a proper reward.

As a game designer also,
BJ is a pretty perfect gaming product. It's #1. WE have all tried. Buzz, if you think it's a cinch, by all means, give it a go.
It gets tweaked for house edge and anti-card-counter measures, but cannot be beaten as a basic game design, and lord have we all tried!!!

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Paigowdan