A Word About our Dealers

In most houses, the tips you give the "fun" ones go into a pool, and the non-fun ones get the majority of it.
If you are going to play the game, understand the rules.

Quote: gordonm888

For all the moralists out there who point out dealer overpayments: do you point out when the dealer has overpaid another player at the table?
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I did do that one time. I think it was a $10 table playing with my wife and some nice strangers. At some point a loud obnoxious, probably drunk, comes to the table and is just being a clown and annoying everyone. We are all sick of him and the dealer pays him on a hand that should have been a push. It wasn't much money, maybe $200, when the dealer gets to me at third base I just say that seat two was a push and you paid him. the woman dealer turns back to seat two and sees him grabbing the chips. She stops him counts the cards and calls the pit. The pit takes the money back why the guy claims it is his money. Once done he started cussing, flipped his chair over, and screamed until security showed up.

Quote: BigSlick

No. I’m just a casual Player. I’m not associated with any casinos. For me, it’s purely “recreational”. I’m
retired and I enjoy games of chance and meeting new people.

TBH, I didn’t realize “casino strategies” could be cut-throat to the point where folks would try to “trick” the Dealers into over-paying them. I guess it makes sense it it’s “your jam/job”.

But, my guess would be that the House edge probably overcomes even that eventually, too. Right?
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Let's explain it this way: next time you go to the casino, ask a dealer or pit boss if you are allowed to use a computer at the table. A blackjack table or similar. Any kind of computer, even a pocket calculator.

You know what the answer will be. Absolutely not! There will probably be signs up around the casino to that effect too. And you know you're not allowed to use your phone at the table.

So why is that, if the house always has the edge in the long run? Obviously they don't: it's considered cheating to use a computer at a blackjack table, because the player can use it to get an edge over the casino.

Now what if... you had a player who is somewhat of an exceptional person, and does not need a computer to do those calculations?

Ah, now you get it! Like that kid in math class who would just blurt out the answer the second the teacher wrote the question on the board. He didn't need to do any work, usually reading a comic book in class or something, but manipulating numbers in his head comes totally naturally to him, just like some others were great athletes without trying too hard, or great at singing or music or writing.

He was probably a real weirdo too. And did you ever wonder what happened to him? OK, I'm right here! And many others like me are here, and that's what we're talking about- advantage play. That means doing a lot of work and mental preparation to use our minds like a computer to calculate the edge as it changes throughout the game and modify our playing and betting with that information. But we make mistakes too, and when we do no one gives us a do-over. That makes us not very inclined to give a mistake-making dealer a break either.

I wonder if the slot winner in the original post hadn't won a jackpot but had a TITO for say $800 and he went to the cage instead of a kiosk to cash it out. Would the casino have deducted $150 from the payout then? I doubt it, and they probably wouldn't have asked for ID or a club card either. The slot win raised a red flag in the system about a payment due, and like who puts an overpayment from another casino in the system? If the guy had nothing to say about, that still may not be his fault.

(¡excitedly abbreviated!)

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

That makes us not very inclined to give a mistake-making dealer a break either.
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The nature of gambling against a casino makes the interaction inherently adversarial.

Casino gambling is not a positive-sum game. The house and the player cannot both win simultaneously, so each party must represent their own interests exclusively.

Quote: Dieter

(¡excitedly abbreviated!)

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

That makes us not very inclined to give a mistake-making dealer a break either.
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The nature of gambling against a casino makes the interaction inherently adversarial.

Casino gambling is not a positive-sum game. The house and the player cannot both win simultaneously, so each party must represent their own interests exclusively.
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Interesting perspective...

Assuming I was laying down what I have in my investment portfolio, this might matter. But, I don't "risk" more than I feel is worth the price of entertainment. 🤷‍♂️

However, given that I go to casinos for recreational and entertainment purposes, I doubt I'll ever need to be all that adversarial to the House or to the minimum wage Dealers who are just trying to scrape out a "living".

For anyone who is an active investor, the past couple of weeks have been amazing for AI investments. That's where I do my most serious "gambling". If you're an investor, you know that it's been a very nice ride.

That I was able to win $1200 playing some table games at an Indian casino in Tampa was awesome - and a lot of fun! That I could share those winnings with the single mom Dealer only made it better for me. I felt like I made a difference for her.

But, my post was really about "the other guy": the one who had obviously (from all of his rhetoric, reactions, and body language) been overpaid and was losing the battle because he'd been "caught". He had been overpaid, he got caught, and he felt like screaming "victim" would make his case. IDK how it ended, but I do hope that he lost.

Should the House have just let him "off the hook". Maybe? Probably? I don't care? At the end of the day, they ("the House") are gonna get the money anyway, right?

"keep them coming back because in the end, we get it all" - Robert DeNiro as "Sam Rothstein" in Casino....

" gambling as a shelter investment"??????

Stringing together a couple of words doesn't mean they make sense. What is a shelter investment and what does it have to do with gambling in a csasino?a

Quote: BigSlick

Quote: Dieter

(¡excitedly abbreviated!)

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

That makes us not very inclined to give a mistake-making dealer a break either.
link to original post

The nature of gambling against a casino makes the interaction inherently adversarial.

Casino gambling is not a positive-sum game. The house and the player cannot both win simultaneously, so each party must represent their own interests exclusively.
link to original post

Interesting perspective...

Assuming I was laying down what I have in my investment portfolio, this might matter.

However, given that I go to the casino for recreational and entertainment purposes, I doubt I'll ever need to be all that adversarial to the House or to the minimum wage Dealers who are just trying to scrape out a "living".

At the end of the day, the House has the advantage. I love the quote from DeNiro in Casino: "keep them coming back because in the end, we win it all".

What would be extremely interesting would be for someone who can regularly beat the SP500 in a casino to weigh in on "gambling as a shelter investment"
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You don't have to be rude to the dealers, even if you are technically adversaries. Manners are basically free. It is amazing how far a few "Good Mornings" and "pleases" to the normal "change five hundred (please)" or "coloring up (please)" requests goes.

I am not saying you should try to raise a stink and try to slither out of every loss. You probably should speak up if the dealer erroneously tries to take what should be a push. No need to be a jerk about it ("can you believe this place? won't let you win! they rob you, every time!"), you can just mention "hey, wasn't that a push?"

There are lots of ways to purchase amusement.
I understand there is a website where you can pay celebrities (actors, athletes, comedians, etc) around $150 to make a short video wishing someone a happy retirement, birthday, anniversary, or basically whatever.
For a few bucks more, you can probably even get a ticket to see half of The Wizard of Oz.

Amen!

A few years ago, back when the Wild West had good games, I met a guy who was betting ten dollars, with a dollar tip every hand. He insisted he was tipping 10% and thought everyone should tip. After a couple of hours, we both took a break and ended up sitting next to each other in the coffee shop.
I showed him some simple math.
A hundred decisions. He wins 51 and loses 49. If he were betting $10 a hand, he'd have won $20. But by tipping a dollar a hand, he'd lost $80. I showed him how each win profited only $9 because of the tip, and each loss cost him $11.
His 10% tips were killing his game, and he'd never noticed. He knew most of the basic strategy and couldn't figure out why he rarely won anything. He thought losing less than a hundred dollars playing on a ten-dollar table was about average, as he got decent food comps and free rooms. When I pointed out he was only losing $20-$25 and giving away the rest, he was not happy.
We went back, and he started tipping $5 every dealer change.

Quote: BigSlick

...
That I was able to win $1200 playing some table games at an Indian casino in Tampa was awesome - and a lot of fun! That I could share those winnings with the single mom Dealer only made it better for me. I felt like I made a difference for her...

Hey there's a place in town called the Mons Venus. They have single moms there too. They'll make you feel even better!

Civil treatment of a dealer, absolutely. I would have probably argued too if they tried to claw back an overpay, but for strictly mercenary reasons. If you do it to the point where security guards are involved you're not doing it right. How I would have likely played that is to try to convince them it wasn't really an overpay. Make them check the cameras, and if they are too busy or can't be bothered I get the money.

And also I question the legality of what they did being they were two separate and unrelated transactions. If a machine says "If you get this hand, we will pay you $1250" that is binding. What happened somewhere else is a different case and when you think someone owes you money, you have to get a court to agree with you before you can involuntarily collect it. It's like I was a contractor who once did some work there and they had a dispute about the work, then I'm playing there and I win a jackpot, and they say "Hey remember that carpet you laid here 4 months ago? Well one of the edges came up and we had to call another guy to fix it, so we're deducting $400 from your jackpot." Can't do that.

Sure, you can, as long as the other person doesn't object. I had a competitor who fined bartenders 3X whatever they were short. It was 100% illegal, but the workers didn't do anything because they were making crazy money.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: BigSlick

...
That I was able to win $1200 playing some table games at an Indian casino in Tampa was awesome - and a lot of fun! That I could share those winnings with the single mom Dealer only made it better for me. I felt like I made a difference for her...

Hey there's a place in town called the Mons Venus. They have single moms there too. They'll make you feel even better!

Civil treatment of a dealer, absolutely. I would have probably argued too if they tried to claw back an overpay, but for strictly mercenary reasons. If you do it to the point where security guards are involved you're not doing it right. How I would have likely played that is to try to convince them it wasn't really an overpay. Make them check the cameras, and if they are too busy or can't be bothered I get the money.

And also I question the legality of what they did being they were two separate and unrelated transactions. If a machine says "If you get this hand, we will pay you $1250" that is binding. What happened somewhere else is a different case and when you think someone owes you money, you have to get a court to agree with you before you can involuntarily collect it. It's like I was a contractor who once did some work there and they had a dispute about the work, then I'm playing there and I win a jackpot, and they say "Hey remember that carpet you laid here 4 months ago? Well one of the edges came up and we had to call another guy to fix it, so we're deducting $400 from your jackpot." Can't do that.
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I'm not sure what the laws are but I can tell you how it's handled at my local casino. Once they give you the chips or money it's yours. However, if they come back and tell you that they made a mistake you you owe them money, you have two choices: pay them or get barred from the casino until you do. I've seen this happen in the casino a few times. They always pay.

Example: A few months ago in the poker room someone gave the chip runner some money and she came back with chips. A few minutes later they told him that they brought him $100 too much. He wasn't sure and asked them to check the camera. He wasn't allowed to play until they finished checking (the dealer was told to deal him out). A couple of minutes later the floor came back and there were 2 security guards there. They told him that they checked and he owes $100. If he didn't pay he would be asked to leave (that's what the security guards were there for). He paid and was allowed to continue playing. But he was allowed to keep the money, leave, and never come back if he wanted to.

Pete Rose was overpaid on a horse bet at Ballys. The mistake was picked up almost immediately and Rose was informed. He was given the option of paying it back or he'd be banned from Ballys, and two clerks would lose their jobs. Good old Pete, who made well over a hundred million dollars hawking his merchandise, refused to pay and was escorted off Bally's property. The really sick thing was he had a contract with Bally's that paid him $15-50K an appearance to meet and greet high-rollers and threw it away for a couple of grand.

I have a question. If you cash out $9,000 at one casino, then cash out $9,000 at a sister casino the same day, will that count as an $18,000 cash out and draw a CTR at the second casino?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: gordonm888

For all the moralists out there who point out dealer overpayments: do you point out when the dealer has overpaid another player at the table?
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Yeah, you’re talking to me and maybe others.

No. I would never point out an overpayment affecting someone else. No sense getting beat up for no reason.

I’m in town for G2E. Got here Saturday, with my first couple of days staying at Gold Coast.

I’m at a $5 table with a bunch of recreational $5 players. I’m playing my normal game with $100 placed on the even numbers (20/30/30/20). Several dealers constantly making mistakes about what my intentions were despite me pointing to the boxes while saying the amounts and also saying even numbers. At one point. a box man come to me to chat with me because he recognized that I knew what I was doing while the dealers were very green.

This past Monday night, my third night at Gold Coast, I stepped up to the craps table just as a player had sevened out, and some players are coloring up, including the guy next to me.

I look down and I see the dealer had stacked chips to count for a total of $437. And then counted out $432 to pay. I said, “count it again”. Both the dealer and the box glanced at me. But the dealer started to push the chips towards the player next to me. I said, “count it again” one more time. She finished pushing the chips forward. The player next to me reached down and picked up the chips. I said very sternly “put those chips back down”. He complied and then I looked at the dealer again and said “count it again” which she finally did and then the dealer and the box realized it was short five dollars.

The player wasn’t paying attention. He did thank me, but should I have not said anything?
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I don't blame you for being hesitant about going into other people's business at a Casino and risking getting beat up. A guy said he went into another guy's business at a Casino and he left to go home. The other guy pulled a gun on him in the parking garage! 😱😳 The first guy said something like,"Please don't shoot me, I have a four year old daughter!" The other guy put away his gun and said something like,"You're lucky I am also a Father. You REALLY should be careful about going into other people's business at a Casino," and left. The first guy said something like,"I'm gay and a virgin, so I definitely don't have a four year old daughter. I was just saying anything that I thought would keep me alive." 💡