How would you play as a whale?

For discussion as I always wonder about this. Imagine you are a whale to the point that the casino will meet your needs. Where do you want to play? I always found it weird to want to play alone in your suite. I would want the atmosphere of the casino around me. I might want a "buffer seat" between me and the other players, and a non-smoking table. Also a dedicated waitress. But I would want to be around the action.

Would you want to be around the action? Just in the high-roller room? In total private? Something else?*

*For discussion assume you are not Taylor Swift or a celebrity who will draw unwanted attention. Also assume they will keep crowds back if you have a big stack. You will have enough privacy in that way.

I wrote In I am a bigot because it was not in the poll selection

maybe bases on the game.
But some games like pai gow poker no blocked spots may be solo if they let you play all spots.

Don't like BJ head to head with an dealer.

I’d want to play in the high limit room where things are a little quieter.

But it would be at craps where I’d play are the high limits, Wilbur my buddies could also play at $5 minimums.

And we might not necessarily be too quiet. 😁

I'm just there to try to win a lot of money. I just imagine everybody else at the casino has seen a lot more gambling than I have at the casino as far as higher stakes above near nothing. They've got their black chips on the betting spots and one day that could be me. But I heard the most obnoxious maximum bettor at the BJ table last night, I thought he was gonna commit a crime and maybe people should take cover. It was good to see him getting paid off on that hand, but it wasn't the last we heard of him. He was screaming like a bank robber 2 minutes later. So just how volatile are these large bettors? I may have to stick to the high limit room to reduce my exposure to the riff raff out there.

I don’t think I’d enjoy a private gambling room closed off from the public. I liked the 3 per side in craps rule during Covid. I could see wanting that. I hate to feel crowded.

In general spectators seem to like to watch when people are winning. When I play in a casino where the high limit salon is semi open to foot traffic, not entirely secluded, people will stop and watch while I am raking it in. The cards turn against you, no longer winning, people will wander off.

I don't really like being watched, at any time, by anyone, so once I graduated to the point of "reserved" (private) tables, I left it that way and prefer it that way. However, a private table doesn't always mean tucked away in the back, or in your suite, or on a special floor, a reserved table might just be right next to a public table in the same main salon room, except that it is reserved for just you and no one else may sit down to play except by your permission. And even in the back, unless you are in a truly private closed off room, which they started allowing those in Vegas in the early 2000s,

Nevada gaming salon rules unveiled

Caesars second to get OK for private salon[/rul]

Venetian OK'd to open private gambling salons, but fined]

Want your own mini casino? For $300,000, the Bellagio can make it happen

Ten Things I Never Knew About Las Vegas Until I Ran a High-Roller Suite

and the rules and existence of these salon prives have varied over the years,

still you're left open to foot traffic, although it would take someone who is either quite comfortable and familiar with high limit salons, or someone who just doesn't know better, to walk into one of those not-actually-private back rooms - the rules might allow it, but casino etiquette might not.

Here is an article about how the truly private salons haven't even done that well.

Why High Rollers Shun Private Digs In Las Vegas Casinos New Gambling Salons Make Rich Chinese Nervous; Regulators Ask Questions

But whether up front or in the back, at least you may keep other players off your private table and play at your own pace.

The other thing that happens at private tables, if you have the clout, is special rules. Some of these rules matter, actually affect the house edge, others do not and might be more ceremonial. (Of course, sometimes something that appears to be ceremonial is actually a game changer - see, Phil Ivey and Cheung Yin ‘Kelly’ Sun.)

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I’d want to play in the high limit room where things are a little quieter.

But it would be at craps where I’d play are the high limits, Wilbur my buddies could also play at $5 minimums.

And we might not necessarily be too quiet. 😁
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Craps tables are quite rare in high limit salons. I know of at least one in one of the majors which is a private craps table, available for reserve by a high roller for just him and his friends.

And yes, the interesting thing about reserved tables, at least for Baccarat and Blackjack, is that when it's done the upper limit is raised, but the lower minimum is not set, meaning that you may bet whatever at the low end, just are allowed to bet higher based on your credit line or front money, than publicly stated limits. These are called "special limits." And yes, I have seen it where a high roller is betting big and he has a bunch of friends betting small although I actually have never seen anyone bet under $100. in the high limit salon, at any game, ever (at least not at the casinos at which I play regularly).

Quote: JoeTheDragon

But some games like pai gow poker
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I don't pay attention to pai gow because I don't play it, but I have never noticed a pai gow table in any high limit salon.

Quote: MDawg

I However, a private table doesn't always mean tucked away in the back, or in your suite, or on a special floor, a reserved table might just be right next to a public table in the same main salon room, except that it is reserved for just you and no one else may sit down to play except by your permission.

I have seen this. Larry Flynt playing alone. He had 2-3 goons around him in addition to casino security.

Yes, the articles I posted above delineate the availability of "truly" private play.

This article discusses for example Larry Flynt's 20% loss rebate arrangement:
9/7/2001 Las Vegas Casinos Take a Big Gamble On Baccarat to Reel in Highest Rollers

LAS VEGAS -- Casinos covet Larry Flynt. His baccarat and blackjack bets of $45,000 or so a minute make him one of Las Vegas's best customers. So the publisher of Hustler magazine says he gets an incentive that casinos would like to keep secret: a rebate of at least 20% of his losses.

"I've been offered as much as 25%," Mr. Flynt says. "I can get a deal anywhere. They'll do anything."


Therein lies a dilemma for casinos: They need gamblers like Mr. Flynt more than ever these days, yet such players are harder than ever to find. And in order to reel in these elusive customers, known in the industry as "whales," casinos sometimes risk giving away the house.

Baccarat, a relatively simple 15th-century card game, was once a favorite of French kings. Nowadays it's a pastime of international titans, whose identities casinos shield closely and whose presence means fat potential profits. Baccarat bets are routinely casinos' biggest, with wagers reaching well into the six figures. On a gambling spree that became international news, Australian media magnate Kerry Packer lost a reported $20 million a year ago during a single visit to the Bellagio casino here.

In recent years, almost every casino that has opened in Las Vegas has introduced a high-limit salon, banking on baccarat to support the casinos' extraordinary cost. "It's very difficult, when you've got a $1 billion building, to make a living on slot machines," says Glenn Schaeffer, president and chief financial officer of Mandalay Resort Group, which owns the $1.1 billion Mandalay Bay.

But the slowing world economy isn't producing more whales, and the baccarat business isn't growing. Of $4.4 billion in total winnings last year, Las Vegas Strip casinos won $536 million at baccarat, down from a high of $595 million in 1995, according to Nevada gambling regulators.

As a result, casinos are competing hard over a dwindling resource. They are showering baccarat moguls with ever-more palatial suites, cash, free chips and even rebates on their losses. "It's been a player's market," Mr. Schaeffer says. But since discounts and other financial incentives affect the math behind baccarat, several industry veterans say the odds are turning in favor of some top gamblers.


Jim Kilby, a former casino executive who has built a consulting career helping fine-tune casinos' odds, recently chastised executives for their high-stakes efforts. "If Bugsy Siegel were alive today," he told them at an industry forum last winter, "he'd have you whacked."

In the baccarat salons of Las Vegas, the clanging of slot machines is replaced by the murmurs of gamblers and the casino staff who outnumber them. Dealers are tuxedoed and butler-polite. Baccarat players are notoriously superstitious -- ritualistically kissing, twisting and blowing on their cards for luck. The game works like this: A dealer distributes hands of two to three cards to a gambler who sits at a shallow horseshoe-shaped table. Then the value of each hand is totaled. Tens and face cards are worth zero. Gamblers bet simply on the luck of the draw -- on whether the "banker" or the "player" will have the hand totaling closest to nine.

A single baccarat player can turn a casino's sorry fiscal quarter into a celebration in a matter of hours. But when luck runs against a house, losses can reverberate on Wall Street.

Such casino losses have been more frequent these days. Las Vegas casinos don't divulge many financial details for baccarat, so it's difficult to tell exactly how profitable the game is. But Harrah's, MGM Mirage and the Venetian have all acknowledged feeling the heat of major baccarat losses in recent times.

Gary Loveman, president of Harrah's Entertainment Corp. in Las Vegas, has felt the effects of baccarat losses. He says that's because rivalry is causing casinos to act rashly. "Once you start discounting, you're on a slippery slope to giving away the casino's advantage," he says. "We would argue that at times, our competitors have given more than the house advantage away."

Despite the huge bets, the house edge at baccarat is one of the thinnest in a casino, averaging about 1.3% -- as little as half that of games such as roulette and some slots. In baccarat, it takes at least 15 million hands for a casino to have a 95% certainty of winning that 1.3%.

Andrew MacDonald, chief executive of gambling operations for Australia's Publishing & Broadcasting Ltd. empire, argues that casinos sometimes blame losses on bad luck when they've actually failed to properly factor in the cost of incentives.

Discounting may also contribute to another unsettling trend. Big gamblers are spending less time than ever at the tables. One Las Vegas casino, which declines to be named, estimates the average baccarat player last year gambled for a mere nine hours -- down from 17 hours in 1997. Mr. Kilby says he noticed the downturn when working recently as head of international marketing at the Rio. Discounts encouraged gamblers to hop from casino to casino, he says.

Mr. Kilby says he asked a Rio player with a 20% discount last year why he was leaving after quickly winning $100,000. According to Mr. Kilby, the player calculated correctly that he'd be better off losing at another casino than doing so at the Rio -- where his win could have offset his loss, negating the discount.

Harrah's in June decided that its slot-machine players were subsidizing high rollers at the Rio, Mr. Loveman says. When high rollers won enough to dent Harrah's second-quarter earnings by 10%, or four cents a share, Harrah's began shutting down marketing offices around the world and cut its maximum acceptable wagers to $15,000 from $100,000. That put the Rio effectively out of the baccarat game. "We've become the reverse Robin Hood of the casino world," griped Mr. Loveman at the time. "Take from the poor and give to the rich. It's a stupid way to run a business."

Not all casinos in Las Vegas concede it's a problem. Officials at MGM Mirage, which dominates Las Vegas baccarat with its Bellagio, MGM Grand and Mirage properties, say they're resisting the urge to ratchet up the rebates. Executives at the Venetian, a major incentive-giver in Las Vegas, didn't respond to several requests for comment.

Gamblers at the Helm

Still, casino bosses aren't always as mathematically savvy as they seem. Many make gut-level decisions based more on emotion and tradition than arithmetic. Mr. Kilby says he has witnessed executives giving a night off to dealers who seem unlucky or reducing the betting limit of a gambler on a winning streak -- decisions that defy the statistical probabilities on which casinos make money. The author of the industry's standard textbook on casino management, Mr. Kilby says casinos are regularly seduced by their own game. Executives are often onetime gamblers or dealers and tend to think like their customers rather than like financial-services companies.

"You hear people saying things like, 'Let's take a shot' or 'We can beat him,'" he says. "You'd never hear Allstate or State Farm saying that."

Casinos also hide -- even from many of their own employees -- details of incentive deals. The arrival of a big gambler is likely to be shrouded in subterfuge. The MGM Grand built a separate walled entrance for the limos of these high rollers in large part to prevent rival operators from knowing their comings and goings.

Many baccarat players are wealthy foreigners who come to the U.S. to avoid publicity at home, where gambling may be illegal or frowned upon. "The customers don't want to see their names thrown around," says Jim Murren, MGM Mirage's president and chief financial officer.

Australia's Mr. Packer, a casino owner himself, is widely believed to be the world's highest roller. His sprees in Las Vegas drip with drama. On April 30, 1992, the billionaire strode into Caesars Palace and began placing mortgage-sized bets. By midnight, when the books closed on Caesars World Inc.'s fiscal quarter, he was up $9 million -- with a pile of chips worth roughly 37 cents a share to the company. It halved the quarter's earnings. Mr. Packer "single-handedly, by himself demolished that quarter," recalls Henry Gluck, then Caesars' chairman.

A few days after the incident, the company issued a terse profit warning, blaming a downturn at its casinos in Las Vegas and Lake Tahoe. Fortunately for Caesars, though, Mr. Packer stuck around that night. In the hours after midnight, he gave back everything and more -- earnings that Caesars reported in the following quarter.

Megagamblers may pose too large a threat to a casino. The MGM Grand sent an emissary several years ago to tell Mr. Packer his bets could no longer be accommodated -- and he hasn't gambled there since, according to people familiar with his visits. When the company last year bought Mirage Resorts Inc., Mr. Packer called to ask if he would still be welcome at Mirage's Bellagio casino. He is. Mr. Packer declined an interview request.

Still, hooking whales is one of the most attractive, and highest stakes, jobs in the casino world. It requires living something of the life of a high roller -- entertaining at lavish parties, sitting ringside at boxing matches, even touring the world to visit customers.

MGM Mirage Chairman Terry Lanni is one of his company's most potent marketing weapons, based on his longstanding friendships with gamblers that go back decades to his early career running Caesars Palace. Mr. Lanni, who recently toured Asia visiting customers on their own turf, may approve big players' credit limits and agree to other details of their stays.

Below the top brass, teams of sales people called hosts attend to player whims, shopping for birthday gifts and catering to other needs as well as luring gamblers from competitors. Another host duty is to put rivals off the scent of who's playing and how much. "We love to spread misinformation with our competitors," MGM Mirage's Mr. Murren says.

Casinos also put local hosts in offices around the world. From this vantage point, Las Vegas often sees the cutting edge of international trends. Casino executives joke they can read the world economy through baccarat: Mexican, Japanese and Indonesian players have all come and gone according to their nations' financial fortunes. The industrial reaches of China are hot these days. Gritty cities such as Chengdu, where MGM Mirage recently opened an office, are producing wealthy entrepreneurs who are eager to gamble.

Dining on Caviar

In Las Vegas, high rollers wager among authentic Picasso paintings, dine on caviar, and tee off at the likes of MGM Mirage's Shadow Creek, a $40 million golf course lushly stocked with 30,000 trees and roughly 40 species of exotic birds. MGM Mirage aims to get four trips a year from its top players, scheduling golf tournaments and other events to attract them.

Almost anything goes. A 73-year-old Texas banker who frequents several Las Vegas casinos routinely demands a setup in his suite that costs as much as $20,000, according to one Las Vegas casino host. A recent request of the banker's included two Mont Blanc pens, monogrammed bathrobes, Godiva chocolates and a case of 1985 Sassicaia Tenuta San Guido, a rare and highly rated Tuscan wine that costs $900 a bottle wholesale. The gambler also received a discount on losses of 18% and $25,000 ostensibly to cover his airfare.

In 1999, the MGM Grand raised the stakes for baccarat with the Mansion -- a 29-villa high-roller resort within the casino that cost $180 million. Some of its suites measure 12,000 square feet and feature barber-shop chairs and bathrooms with televisions over both the sink and tub. The Rio later built a less extravagant version, the Palazzo Suites. Caesars Palace recently spent $25 million building two villas for high rollers and the two-year-old Venetian plans to build new high-roller digs next year.

The Las Vegas baccarat business started out far more humbly. The game emigrated from Cuba in the 1950s, where it was played at a handful of casinos using bundles of cash. In the 1970s, casinos sped up the betting by using chips, says Paul Weintraub, baccarat manager at Bellagio.

Rebates on losses first appeared in the 1980s, when the Tropicana, Desert Inn and other casinos started giving secretive discounts of as much as 5% to a handful of players if they paid up within 30 or 60 days.

As more casinos entered the business, incentives grew. It became standard practice for casinos to pay commissions to freelance representatives who reel in lucrative gamblers. The commissions are usually based on a percentage of how much a gambler is likely to lose, says Paul Rubeli, chief executive of Phoenix-based Aztar Corp., which owns the Tropicana.

New Lures

Casinos began to enter complex negotiations with players or their agents. Casinos invented new lures, such as free-chip deals, "walk-in" cash, and a variety of discounts to reduce losses if a gambler pays in cash, pays up quickly, or pays in U.S. dollars.

Witness the terms demanded earlier this year by a Greek gambler with a $5 million credit line at Caesars Palace, according to a casino host familiar with them. He requested $150,000 for "airfare" as well as a lift on the casino's private jet. The player asked for free chips worth $200,000, a rebate of 15% to 25% of his losses, and a $100,000 commission for his agent, who shopped the player to competing casinos. The casino host says the player had obtained similar terms from Caesars in the past. Caesars officials questioned the amount of the agent's commission, but declined otherwise to comment.

Mr. Flynt says casinos can be so aggressive that it's possible to have losses rebated and still head home a winner. If he loses early in the evening, he says, "You can go to dinner, get your discount, and come back and play again."

Spiraling incentives goaded the Tropicana to close its baccarat pit in 1999 after decades in the business. "It was all we talked about," says Mr. Rubeli. "We'd come out of a two-hour meeting and we'd spent an hour and a half talking about baccarat." The casino's cash flow from operations thereafter tripled to $28.8 million last year from $9.2 million in 1998 -- a success that Mr. Rubeli attributes to "the wonderful middle-market business."

"I'm very happy we got out," Mr. Rubeli says. "For a very personal reason: I don't have to come in on Monday and say, 'What happened over the weekend?' "

Quote: MDawg

Why High Rollers Shun Private Digs In Las Vegas Casinos New Gambling Salons Make Rich Chinese Nervous; Regulators Ask Questions
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Here is the full article, 1/21/2005:

LAS VEGAS -- For 50 years at casinos here, it was illegal to wager in private. But two years ago, gambling executives figured they hit the jackpot when lawmakers allowed them to start running private salons for high rollers.

The casinos expected a lot of new business to pour in from China -- lately, the world's hottest gambling market. But today the salons have turned out to be an expensive bust. Mandalay Bay says the private salons it spent $3 million on have been used just 10 times in two years. Caesars Palace says its Roman-themed rooms have been used by two players. The MGM Grand, where private rooms are decorated in fine art, played host to its first private gambler just a few weeks ago.

One big hurdle is that Nevada regulators want to know a lot about the people for whom they're bending long-established rules. To keep games honest, regulations require private gamblers to first fax them their names and contact information, certain financial data such as their credit limits and details of how they tend to gamble, such as average bets. Moreover, state agents can watch the gambling on closed-circuit television.

Many Chinese gamblers also fear that they will be traced by agents of the People's Republic, which frowns on gambling and on taking cash out of the country. A number of these gamblers are government officials themselves, according to casino executives who cater to them.


A publicity shot of one of Caesars Palace's larger Greco-Roman-themed private gambling salons
The result: Some casinos are going back to an age-old Las Vegas tactic: courting high rollers to play in rooms that are technically open to anyone, but in fact, are effectively closed to the public.

Three of the MGM Grand's biggest customers -- all from Asia -- walked away from the private-room scene. "When they were told the rules, they decided not to play," says a casino executive, adding that two of them decided instead to gamble in the public high-limit salon. The third learned of the rules before flying to Las Vegas and canceled his trip.

The drive to create private gambling havens for the super-rich is a way to cater both to the tourist hordes and the gamblers known as "whales."

Nearly 40 million people are expected to visit Las Vegas this year. And most of them will spend more on shopping and eating than on gambling. A few hundred highly prized casino customers produce about 10% of Las Vegas's $8 billion in annual gambling revenue. With increasing wealth, eased travel restrictions and a long tradition of gambling, China has been producing major new gamblers who are heading to private salons that don't ask questions in Macau, Australia and Europe.

"There is a terrific amount of high-end business that Las Vegas does not currently get," says Bill Weidner, president and chief operating officer of Las Vegas Sands Corp., which owns the Venetian.

Once they had gotten the law changed in 2002, casino executives wasted no time in creating private havens for big would-be customers. The MGM Grand dominates high-end play here. Its baccarat area can be entered from the main casino or from the Mansion, a complex of high-roller suites. There, the din of slot machines is replaced by the tinkle of ice in cocktail glasses. The heavily staffed room is decorated in paintings, sculpture and carved wood. At the periphery are a row of small private gambling rooms.

Just up the boulevard are the Caesars Palace Greco-Roman private rooms that have been used by just two gamblers. One of them, a man nicknamed "Speedy Lee" according to employees, arrives with an entourage, marches past the full-size Baccarat crystal table in the main salon, then props chairs against the doors to keep people from entering or leaving a private room. "He's so superstitious," says a baccarat dealer there.

Nevada required the public to have unrestricted access to wagering in a 1955 law that aimed "to ensure that gaming is conducted honestly, competitively and free of criminal and corruptive elements," according to the statute. The state wanted to ensure access to undercover police agents, regulators say.

"Our concern is that [the casino] not prevent someone from entering," says Keith Copher, chief of enforcement for the Nevada Gaming Control Board. Fines for violating the law can amount to $100,000 per count, though Mr. Copher says he can't remember such sanctions being taken.

Knowledgeable locals are well aware that they have the right to ogle high rollers. "When I have visitors from out of town,...the first thing I'll do is say, 'Let's go in the high-limit area,' " says Mr. Copher.

With big gamblers shying away from private rooms, some casinos are turning to open rooms that, in fact, are rarely invaded by tourists. Some put up movable screens to discourage prying eyes. Most scare away curious onlookers at the entrance with a stern, "Can I help you, sir?"

"We tell them this is a reserved area," says one supervisor at the MGM Grand's baccarat salon. She acknowledges that, according to state law, that isn't correct. But such efforts are so effective that some gamblers believe they're wagering in a private room. Publisher Larry Flynt, for example, says the Venetian and Las Vegas Hilton let him play blackjack privately because the game requires "a lot of concentration." Mr. Flynt is adamant. "I know they have one at the Hilton because I've used it." Both casinos insist they have never offered private gambling. A spokesman for the Hilton says the facility doesn't have a private room and doesn't try to mislead gamblers about that.

There were some private games in Las Vegas, even before the passage of the new law. In one of the town's worst-kept secrets, Caesars Palace in the 1980s kept a private gambling salon on the second floor. Henry Gluck, chairman of Caesars World for some of those years, says regulators back then were willing to look the other way -- something regulators confirm. "They were always illegal, but they allowed us," Mr. Gluck says.

The gaming board's Mr. Copher, who began his career with the board in 1981, says, "I'm aware of the Caesars one."

But casino moguls often just do what they want. "We used to close the door all the time," says Steve Wynn, who developed the high-rolling Mirage and Bellagio and in April will open his latest property, Wynn Las Vegas. When reminded that closing the doors is illegal, Mr. Wynn added, "Well, we left it open a crack."

I chose High Limit as that's where you can make the most money as a whale.😀💡 For example,my local Casinos have a LOT of Slots where the MINIMUM Bet is $10, and the MAXIMUM is $1000. There are even $100 MINIMUM and $10,000 MAXIMUM Bet Slots in Vegas. Gone for the most part are the days where .01 was the MINIMUM Bet was the and $5 was the MAXIMUM Bet. 💡 Higher bets= Higher Payouts. 😀

Around my area, if you want a jackpot on slots of $50K or $100K it's in the high limit room. As for table games, there's higher minimum and maximum bets like $100 - $2.5K or $3K limits vs $10 or $15 - $500 or $1K, or $25 - $1K or $2K, or $50 - $2K on the main floor. Usually that just means BJ and maybe roulette or another game in the high limit room along with the slots. I can take a walk through the high limit area but the table games are usually deserted, maybe I just come at the wrong hours. There's nothing especially special about the high limit rooms unless trying to get a slightly higher table max. I'd have to drive 3+ hours away to find a $5K max table of BJ. In Vegas a $5K table is probably found on almost any block and not in the high limit room. High limit rooms in Vegas have a whole different stretch of limits that probably start at a $10K max bet and go up from there.

I'd play in the VIP Lounge for the better rules and the more exclusive quiet atmosphere. I wouldn't want a private table though. I'd want to play with other players who are playing at the same level as me. I don't like playing by myself.

Quote: ChumpChange

Around my area, if you want a jackpot on slots of $50K or $100K it's in the high limit room. As for table games, there's higher minimum and maximum bets like $100 - $2.5K or $3K limits vs $10 or $15 - $500 or $1K, or $25 - $1K or $2K, or $50 - $2K on the main floor. Usually that just means BJ and maybe roulette or another game in the high limit room along with the slots. I can take a walk through the high limit area but the table games are usually deserted, maybe I just come at the wrong hours. There's nothing especially special about the high limit rooms unless trying to get a slightly higher table max. I'd have to drive 3+ hours away to find a $5K max table of BJ. In Vegas a $5K table is probably found on almost any block and not in the high limit room. High limit rooms in Vegas have a whole different stretch of limits that probably start at a $10K max bet and go up from there.
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And in the High Limit room, you get less "Watchers/Beggars." You get to play in peace because generally, People NOT playing are not allowed to lounge around looking at Players play or beg them for money. 💡😀

There are plenty of watchers and beggars in high limit, even though staff is trained to ask non-players to move along. It doesn't take much to pretend to be a player and nowadays (and even in the not too distant past) a lot of legitimate players dress like bums.

There is no way to keep watchers away, other than via subtle intimidation, "May I help you?" - anyone who knows the law knows that if the area is open in any way to the public (public gaming area), it may not be closed off to the public whatsoever.

Quote: MDawg

But casino moguls often just do what they want. "We used to close the door all the time," says Steve Wynn, who developed the high-rolling Mirage and Bellagio and in April will open his latest property, Wynn Las Vegas. When reminded that closing the doors is illegal, Mr. Wynn added, "Well, we left it open a crack."
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The only sure fire way to keep at least the moochers at at least a distance is to play at a private table. Or play in one of the rare completely private rooms, closed to the public, which will then keep everyone but staff away. There are also semi-private salons, not on the main casino floor but on higher floors, where you must have a certain credit line and established heavy hitting play to even enter.

But otherwise if some ballsy clown wants to wander to the back or hover above even a private table in the front, all you may do is prevent him from sitting down.

Quote: MDawg

There are plenty of watchers and beggars in high limit, even though staff is trained to ask non-players to move along. It doesn't take much to pretend to be a player and nowadays (and even in the not too distant past) a lot of legitimate players dress like bums.

There is no way to keep watchers away, other than via subtle intimidation, "May I help you?" - anyone who knows the law knows that if the area is open in any way to the public (public gaming area), it cannot be closed off to the public whatsoever.

Quote: MDawg

But casino moguls often just do what they want. "We used to close the door all the time," says Steve Wynn, who developed the high-rolling Mirage and Bellagio and in April will open his latest property, Wynn Las Vegas. When reminded that closing the doors is illegal, Mr. Wynn added, "Well, we left it open a crack."
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The only sure fire way to keep at least the moochers at at least a distance is to play at a private table. Or play in one of the rare completely private rooms, closed to the public, which will then keep everyone but staff away.
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Hmm. I personally was merely watching a high limit player in my one penny a spin days play like $250 a SPIN on a DOLLAR Denomination and I was amazed that bets could go that high. 😳 Max bet on the PENNY machines I played on was just $5. Casino Staff Member said something like,"Ma'am, we cannot have non playing people watching Players play. Please leave the High Limit Room," and I left.💡

I have no idea what the rules are in some Florida Indian casino, but in Vegas, it is illegal to prevent the public from entering any public gaming area. Most likely they just felt like they could intimidate you into moving along. It doesn't make sense that there could be any kind of law that allows only players in a public casino area - as long as the watchers are welcome into the casino, they would have to be welcome into any open to the public part of the casino.

Now for example, the VIP lounges either within the high limit salons or near the hotel lobbies, those may be closed off except to high level players club members or VIP hotel guests, but any portion of the casino that is open to the public may not exclude anyone.

Quote: MDawg

I have no idea what the rules are in some Florida Indian casino, but in Vegas, it is illegal to prevent the public from entering any public gaming area. Most likely they just felt like they could intimidate you into moving along.

Now for example, the VIP lounges either within the high limit salons or near the hotel lobbies, those may be closed off except to high level players club members or VIP hotel guests, but any portion of the casino that is open to the public may not exclude anyone.
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It actually happened to me at Hialeah Park Casino, not an Indian Casino. 😉💡

You could research the rules, but as I mentioned, it doesn't make sense that there could be any kind of law that allows only players in a public casino area - as long as the watchers are welcome into the casino, they would have to be welcome into any open to the public part of the casino.

In the course of about a half an hour, you posted an impressive amount of misinformation. 😇

Quote: MDawg

You could research the rules, but as I mentioned, it doesn't make sense that there could be any kind of law that allows only players in a public casino area - as long as the watchers are welcome into the casino, they would have to be welcome into any open to the public part of the casino.

In the course of about a half an hour, you posted an impressive amount of misinformation. 😇
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I posted MY experience that I was asked to leave the High Limit Room by Casino Staff for watching a Player play without playing myself. 💡

You were booted just because they didn't like you or your looks and thought they could get away with asking you to shoo.

As I mentioned, there are plenty of watchers and beggars in high limit, in fact that is where some of the worst moochers go because they hope the high rollers won't care about giving up a black chip or two. "Bet this for me, I will pay you if I lose." - happens more often than you'd think, along with more sophisticated longer cons. The high limit salon scam is typically more along the lines of moochers ingratiating themselves with high rollers, then gradually trying to work them for chips, but it does happen. And let's not forget the female chip whores.

Also as mentioned, it doesn't take a huge bankroll to pretend to be a player, even in high limit, and until staff is certain someone is not a player, they can't really ask him to get up from the table, and unless the person is being a pest or is observed trying to hustle chips, they can't ask him to leave the salon itself. Standing there and watching is allowed.

Quote: MDawg

I have no idea what the rules are in some Florida Indian casino, but in Vegas, it is illegal to prevent the public from entering any public gaming area. Most likely they just felt like they could intimidate you into moving along. It doesn't make sense that there could be any kind of law that allows only players in a public casino area - as long as the watchers are welcome into the casino, they would have to be welcome into any open to the public part of the casino.

Can they ask you to move along if they feel you're being disruptive? Because that's a pretty wide net.

Most of the time it comes down to etiquette. Most visitors to high limit just stand there for a while quietly, then leave, somehow understanding that their presence isn't necessarily appreciated. Some Asians are superstitious and don't like anyone standing right behind them, and sometimes a pit boss who knows or realizes this will ask the spectator politely to move along, not necessarily in so many words, but more along the lines of, "Anything I can help you with?" etc.

But if the spectator(s) are just standing there quietly, and know the law, there is really nothing the pit may do to make them leave, as long as they are welcome inside the casino in the first place (not 86'ed etc.).

What Nathan is describing, flat out telling someone that "only players are allowed in here" I have never heard in countless hours spent in high limit salons as far as telling someone to leave the pit. Now, if someone sits down at the table and does not play, is not known to them, eventually the "the seats are for the players only" will be spoken, more or less the same as in the rest of the casino. If there are a lot of players wanting to get to the table, even a player's non-playing companion will be asked to get up, same as outside high limit.


One of the ways that the scammers ingratiate themselves to the high rollers, for example at the Baccarat tables, is to stand there and loudly declare what they think the next hand will be, "Bank! Bank! Bank!" and then bemoan the loss equally loudly if the given targeted player (usually the biggest bettor at the table) went against the scammer's proffered advice. Anyone who follows the unwelcome and unasked for advice long enough will realize that the hustler is wrong as often as he is right, but he tries to make such a big deal of it when his winning advice is ignored, that only the times he was right stand out.

Eventually the hustler is seated at the table, perhaps with a score card furiously filled out with computations and offering first hand advice to the player, especially if the player is losing. And then of course, gradually, it comes to the point in the long con where the hustler has presented himself as enough of a Baccarat wizard and earned enough chips for the player that he feels confident about asking for a "cut." And once he gets that, he's gone like a rat jumping ship, before the tide turns.

These guys are pretty good at hustling, and don't get thrown out too often, and usually know just how much to push without appearing like a chip hustler, which I understand is actually illegal in Nevada, via panhandling or some such laws that are occasionally used to help clear the tables of these nuisances (or, the casino simply 86s them, without need to present any reason at all).

You don't see these hustlers every day, but if you play enough hours at high limit you will eventually come to notice them on occasion. And some of them do play, just enough to justify being there, but then try to hustle up a lot more than they lose with their bets. Some are genuinely trying to win, but just are down and out and try to hustle chips to keep going.

Variations on this happen all the time, and some ultra high rollers, I've seen even come to the tables with what are no doubt hired "experts" who are being paid for the same advice any hustler off the street could offer, for a lot less.


Another one is where a player is just a degenerate gambler, and has gotten to know you, then asks to borrow a not insubstantial sum. I've been asked to lend pretty large sums (over $50K) to such players, and actually, with at least the ones who asked me, I've come to realize could have paid me back (and might actually have paid me back). But I'd never lend money to anyone in a casino, if even just for the reason that by the point that he's asking someone he doesn't even know that well for money, he's obviously on such a losing streak that he will almost definitely lose it all, and fast.

You are right MDawg you obviously know more about high limit salons than I do. 💡

I don't necessarily like things being too quiet around me, but I think having random people come in and out of my blackjack table can be quite annoying.

I know theoretically it helps me via EV and slows things down, but it's less enjoyable for me.

I play a lot in Macau, the one thing I hate is the superstitious comments and hindsight 20/20 things. I play mostly by the book and to get a non-book suggestion in hindsight after I lose a big hand is kind of annoying.

Being annoyed risks me being on tilt, so despite liking the energy, I might want a quieter more private gaming arrangement.

Quote: monodactyl

I don't necessarily like things being too quiet around me, but I think having random people come in and out of my blackjack table can be quite annoying.

I know theoretically it helps me via EV and slows things down, but it's less enjoyable for me.

I play a lot in Macau, the one thing I hate is the superstitious comments and hindsight 20/20 things. I play mostly by the book and to get a non-book suggestion in hindsight after I lose a big hand is kind of annoying.

Being annoyed risks me being on tilt, so despite liking the energy, I might want a quieter more private gaming arrangement.
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I'd be annoyed too in your shoes. People should just mind their own business and keep their unsolicited advice/comments to themselves. I had a random guy I have never even seen before make snarky comments about me making $1.50 bets on a Slot machine and told me I should have only been playing.30 bets. I told him something like,"Mind your own business,and stay out of my business, jerk,"and reported him to a Casino Staff Member. I don't get why he thought it was a good idea to say this to a complete Stranger. e claimed to the CSM that he was trying to help me out. The CSM told him,"She doesn't feel comfortable, we can't have you making our Guests feel uncomfortable, please leave hard alone." The guy left and I thanked the CSM and was welcomed. 😀

I would love to negotiate with the casino for a $5 craps game so long as i was also there betting minimum $100-500 or whatever they wanted. I want the excitement of a full table and also want people to get to have the excitement of $5 craps tables again