New fortune machine knows too much of your cards?

Players have been having a problem with the new Fortune Shufflemaster I-deal machines at some casinos, and balk at playing it. It is supposedly a machine that “knows too much.” It combines a card reading mechanism as it shuffles, with a random "first hand display" to show which hand will be dealt out first to form the table deal. Now think about this...

The machine, while dealing Pai Gow Poker, reads the cards as they are shuffled into their hands and placed into a hopper before they are dealt out from the machine, and then the machine itself assigns a random number to declare the first hand to be dealt out to the table. As a result, it simply knows what each player had in his hand all along in computer memory, including the dealer, before any human play of that hand occurs.
What’s interesting to note is that there are options to set the players’ or dealer’s hand by the press of a button. It says, “Well, since your cards are Ac-Kc-8h-8c-5s-5c-2c, you should play the AK up and the 88552 two pairs down, and ignore the flush because they’ll only give you an 8h-5s top,” as it already knew this info before the deal. A floorman can walk behind the machine and press a button, and see all hands displayed at their positions, including the dead hands that were discarded.

The distinction here is that on a simple Blackjack "card reader machines," (like on a blackjack shoe reader), cards are read and tracked only as they exit out into play, no biggie. Those machines see what the players see anyway, and only at the time when they do too. The remainder of the deck that still has to be dealt is completely unknown, still random. This is very different.
But with the Fortune’s I-deal:
a) The entire deck, once put into the machines, is shuffled into “known hand packets” that are placed into a dispenser hopper before they are dealt - AND
b) The "first hand to deal out" is determined AND known by the same machine through the random number generator.
With this information, the full Pai Gow deal is in essence already played out and resolved before the cards even get out of the machine to the players. A seven-card straight flush that wins the 100% of the progressive jackpot can occur and be known before the players even get their cards, and casino personal are privy to it.
I believe it works this way, as the hands that are dealt out are closed packets, with 7 cards laid on top of one another, so the cards have to be read by the machine prior to that. Maybe it still reads the cards are they are going out, and as they are forming the packets, but I don't know. I also know that the machine can sort the cards into a "new deck order," and dispense them sorted (arranged) on output.

Players aren’t crazy about this. They worry that some program can be written, if a button is pushed indicating that the “table is losing,” to ship any hand four of a kind or better to the dealer only. I absolutely don’t believe this is true, but with the technology, it can later be done if not caught.

Personally, I trust the machine, but I also know it can be gaffed or altered, a la “Ron Harris.” A simple rogue computer patch can accomplish the following:
a) Locate the "best" hand in the hopper before it is dealt out of the machine, and simply ship it to a pre-declared player position, as the machine chooses the first hand out. Simply change the random number generator to read the hopper's contents, and direct the highest hand to the dealer (or player #4, etc.) VERY easy to program, with no effect on machine speed.
b) even "build" tailored hands into each hopper from the deck, much as the machine can read and re-sequence the cards back into its original "new deck order" when closing out a table. (This would be very hard to program, and would noticeably slow the machine down in play, but possible).

As a response, players are not playing any machine that does not use dice to randomly display the first Pai Gow hand dealt; if it is connected to a dispensing machine, the players feel (know) that the cards can be pre-read, and shipped to a position to form a full table deal that can be advantageous to the house, or to a player-agent. By using three dice to randomize which hand is dealt out to the table first, the machine can not know “who has what” or possibly “ship which hand where,” thereby confusing or disorientating the machine’s operating system, so the dice are trusted by players.
Personally, I trust the machine as it comes from its vendor. But:
1. I don’t think pre-dealt and recorded hands that are later re-enacted by players constitute real gambling or gaming.
2. The machine can be the target of program hacks, with programs loaded from memory sticks to alter the machine’s play.

I wanted to bounce this by you guys here for your input. If this is not the case, let's hear exactly how it works.

I voted for trust at the moment, as I do not see why any reputable casino would use the software for nefarious purposes. The resulting bad press and mistrust would far outweigh any small short term financial benefits.

Exactly, that is a small risk, but the public perception may be greater.

If casinos wanted, they could simply use a dice shaker and ignore the first hand display number to use.
Also, any dealer who has to learn to use the computer in order to set a hand should simply learn how to set a hand. The feature could be used to verify a hand setting, but if that involves the floorman anyway, then why not just use the floor?

So I believe that when technology is overdone, - it kills the gamble. Doesn't matter who you are or what you're selling.

I agree. The only justification I could think of for the technology existing in the first place is to speed up the game. A couple of seconds here and there off the initial deal with the shaker, and however much time is reduced by the floor having the info about hand setting in place as opposed to checking the tapes all adds up.

However this is still a pretty weak arguament.

I don't think the new features speed the game up - I think they slow them down instead. The dice are about as quick as the built-in display delay. If the electronic display snapped out a number instantaneously, then it was like "the number wasn't shaken."

It takes time to use the computer to set the hand, and a dealer with 6 months-plus Pai Gow experience can just look at a hand and it's set. Players watching a dealer use an electronic display with their own cards displayed on it produces quesy feelings in a gambler.

And for using the computer to calculate the commission, firstly, it has no advantage over a wrist-watch calculator, and - in my biased opinion - the future of Pai Gow is free of the commission anyway. If you can't set a hand or calculate a commission while you deal, then you just can't deal, so why not learn to really deal the game, instead of being a computer operator?

What Fortune Pai Gow DOES offer is the progressive jackpot - some people just want to play it. Personally, if you bet the regular bonus bet, then you're making a mint on five aces or a seven-card straight flush anyway, - but for just a buck you can double a monster hit.

I would say that the essence of a "gambling game" is that neither side knows the outcome before the wagers are placed. This game modification either skips very close to that line or crosses over it altogether.

I can't gauge the practical potential for casino abuse, but it certainly is nonzero, as is the overall possibilty of a casino taking advantage of such an opportunity if it does present itself. So since no countervailing advantage accrues to the player, I don't like this at all.

Quote: Paigowdan

I don't think the new features speed the game up - I think they slow them down instead. The dice are about as quick as the built-in display delay. If the electronic display snapped out a number instantaneously, then it was like "the number wasn't shaken."

I dont personally have a lot of experience in dealing PGP, having received basic training 3 years ago, but not dealt the game as its not a game we offer. The reasons I gave were possible observations, so thanks for clarifying.

Quote: Paigowdan

If you can't set a hand or calculate a commission while you deal, then you just can't deal, so why not learn to really deal the game, instead of being a computer operator?

Ill put forward another weak arguament that it would take less time and be cheaper to retrain dealers already in house to use the new equipment than to hire new dealers or train people to deal properly. Im really reaching here to try and prolong the discussion.

Quote: Croupier

Ill put forward another weak arguament that it would take less time and be cheaper to retrain dealers already in house to use the new equipment than to hire new dealers or train people to deal properly. Im really reaching here to try and prolong the discussion.

That's the thing about Pai Gow poker - if you have dealers who know "poker" - even video poker - the game is easy to learn, but if not, then yes, an auto hand set would be a good thing.

If I were the boss of DEQ, ShuffleMaster, Gaming Network, etc., and wanted to produce a "dealer assist" auto-hand set device
I'd make a 7-card reader next to the chip rack, swipe the hand through, to set only the one hand. It'll say, "Put on the low hand the AQ," etc. without seeing or knowing any players' cards, or deciding the first hand for the table deal, etc....