Laundering cash to check at table games.
Poll
 | 2 votes (11.76%) | ||
| | 2 votes (11.76%) | ||
| | 7 votes (41.17%) | ||
| | 3 votes (17.64%) | ||
| | 1 vote (5.88%) | ||
| | 1 vote (5.88%) | ||
| | 3 votes (17.64%) | ||
| | 1 vote (5.88%) | ||
| | 1 vote (5.88%) | ||
| | 5 votes (29.41%) |
17 members have voted
Quote: 100xOddsSo withdrawing $10k+ cash from your bank results in a CTR?Quote: MDawgOnly cash or cash instruments are reported via CTR. Not checks, not cashier's checks, not bank wires. However if the SOURCE of the checks, cashier's checks, or bank wires was originally cash, that input of cash is reported.
You're either finding faulty sources or not reading them in their entirety.
Okay you have to start reading this stuff more thoroughly, lest it lead to misinformation.
Form 8300 is not a CTR.
And the reporting of other than straight cash as far as Form 8300 is for
It's also cash equivalents that include cashier's checks (sometimes called a treasurer's check or bank check), bank drafts, traveler's checks or money orders with a face amount of $10,000 or less that a person receives for:
A designated reporting transaction or
Any transaction in which the person knows the payer is trying to avoid the reporting requirement.
"A designated reporting transaction or Any transaction in which the person knows the payer is trying to avoid the reporting requirement" does not mean that every time a business is paid via a big check it has to report anything.
Plus Form 8300 is not for casinos as far as their dealing with players, casinos deal in CTRs as far as their interaction with players.
Anyway, you may deposit a check, cashier's check or send in a bank wire for any amount to the casino or bank, nothing will be reported. I've received bank wires and deposited regular checks or cashier's checks seven figures in my line of business, nothing has ever been reported. You may also receive a check or wire from a casino for any amount, if it is pursuant to a table game win, nothing will be reported.
link to original post
link to original post
Yes. That's a legal requirement.
Not discounting banks that break the rules.
The US government wants to keep track of large cash amounts in its travels. Who is spending and where. Besides drugs, it's terrorism they are interested in. Terrorism costs money and charging your terrorism preparations isn't smart. So the gov tries to do the money reporting
In 2020, it was reported that FINCEN had 340 employees. If it is a typical US government agency, less than half will be examiners.
If you divide 16,000,000 by 200( estimated examiners), you'll see each examiner sees 80,000 forms a year. going a step further and dividing that into workdays, tells us each examiner looks at about 350 forms a day or about 45 an hour.
Some argue the invasion of privacy caused by this isn't worth the effort or loss of privacy.
But would the govt notice large check deposits from casinos as a form of unexpected income?
The bank activity would only show money coming in. No withdrawals for gambling.
Does the govt has software based autonomous flagging of activity? In general, does the govt have full access to every bank account activity without a CTR or SAR?
Would a bank employee report constant casino checks as a SAR (suspicious activity report)?
depositing large checks from a casino into a Bank may provide cover for laundering a few times
but the more often it's done, the more likely it is to attract somebody's attention
for example an ambitious Bank Manager or Supervisor who would rather work for the Corporate Office might see reporting this to someone as a way to impress somebody he wants to impress
.
Quote: lilredrooster.
depositing large checks from a casino into a Bank may provide cover for laundering a few times
but the more often it's done, the more likely it is to attract somebody's attention
for example an ambitious Bank Manager or Supervisor who would rather work for the Corporate Office might see reporting this to someone as a way to impress somebody he wants to impress
.
link to original post
Banks are supposed to file SAR's if they notice suspicious banking activity.
Someone may report for something else not happening and the authorities discover something else.
Quote: lilredrooster.
depositing large checks from a casino into a Bank may provide cover for laundering a few times
but the more often it's done, the more likely it is to attract somebody's attention
for example an ambitious Bank Manager or Supervisor who would rather work for the Corporate Office might see reporting this to someone as a way to impress somebody he wants to impress
.
link to original post
Here is one for a Money Services Business FinCen form 109
https://resources.cdn.seon.io/uploads/2022/03/SAR-template.pdf
It seems to be all centered around cash or cash instruments same as a CTR. You'll notice that the SAR includes boxes to check about "Two or more individuals working together" which would include for example if two people who both bought in for large sums of cash were betting against each other at the tables, in an effort to launder money. In general, such people are mere comp hustlers, but if two people go in and make a single or series of bets against each each for a large sum, say table max, and then the winner heads straight to the cage to get a check, that might be pretty obvious.
I believe the one banks or casinos would use would be FinCEN form 111
https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/TheNewFinCENSAR-RecordedPresentation.pdf
and it covers a lot of different types of suspicious transactions including for example check kiting (Catch Me If You Can)
but over all the form looks like a real PITA to fill out so I don't think anyone is going to spend time on it unless something suspicious is really going on.
Here is a CTR FinCEN form 104
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/fin104_ctr.pdf
which concerns exclusively cash or cash instruments, including if these are used to purchase money orders or to make bank wires.
This Currency Transaction Report (CTR) should NOT be
filed for suspicious transactions involving $10,000 or less
in currency OR to note that a transaction of more than
$10,000 is suspicious. Any suspicious or unusual activity
should be reported by a financial institution in the manner
prescribed by its appropriate federal regulator or BSA
examiner. (See the instructions for Item 37). If a transaction
is suspicious and in excess of $10,000 in currency, then
both a CTR and the appropriate Suspicious Activity Report
form must be filed.
This was the form that AxelWolf kept asking to see to prove SiegfriedRoy's 7 figure win, as if a CTR is something that is just handed over to a player to wave around later, or as if a million dollar winner would cash out with all cash in the first place.
Well there you go Wolf, a CTR! Show me the CTR! 🤓
Quote: MentalOver 20 years ago, I saw a group of Russians who would take turns playing a $25 9/6 JBB game and take checks for all of the jackpots. I assumed it was money laundering. It theoretically cost them a little over 2% to turn cash into checks. Mark Brown was running that casino. Google 'gaming executive mark brown casino money laundering'.
link to original post
I show the theoretical cost on $25 9/6 JoB is 5.13%.
This is based on an RTP on the small wins (full house or less) of 91.11%. You would need to cycle through the original buy-in 1/(1-0.911103) = 11.24901562 times to either lose it or convert it to cash. The expected loss on that is 11.24901562*(1-0.995439) = 0.051306.
I welcome correction, as always, if I'm wrong.
Quote: MDawgIf someone has time, could find an unfilled SAR form for a Bank.
Here is one for a Money Services Business FinCen form 109
https://resources.cdn.seon.io/uploads/2022/03/SAR-template.pdf
It seems to be all centered around cash or cash instruments same as a CTR. You'll notice that the SAR includes boxes to check about "Two or more individuals working together" which would include for example if two people who both bought in for large sums of cash were betting against each other at the tables, in an effort to launder money. In general, such people are mere comp hustlers, but if two people go in and make a single or series of bets against each each for a large sum, say table max, and then the winner heads straight to the cage to get a check, that might be pretty obvious.
I believe the one banks or casinos would use would be FinCEN form 111
https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/TheNewFinCENSAR-RecordedPresentation.pdf
and it covers a lot of different types of suspicious transactions including for example check kiting (Catch Me If You Can)
but over all the form looks like a real PITA to fill out so I don't think anyone is going to spend time on it unless something suspicious is really going on.
Here is a CTR FinCEN form 104
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/fin104_ctr.pdf
which concerns exclusively cash or cash instruments, including if these are used to purchase money orders or to make bank wires.
This Currency Transaction Report (CTR) should NOT be
filed for suspicious transactions involving $10,000 or less
in currency OR to note that a transaction of more than
$10,000 is suspicious. Any suspicious or unusual activity
should be reported by a financial institution in the manner
prescribed by its appropriate federal regulator or BSA
examiner. (See the instructions for Item 37). If a transaction
is suspicious and in excess of $10,000 in currency, then
both a CTR and the appropriate Suspicious Activity Report
form must be filed.
This was the form that AxelWolf kept asking to see to prove SiegfriedRoy's 7 figure win, as if a CTR is something that is just handed over to a player to wave around later, or as if a million dollar winner would cash out with all cash in the first place.
Well there you go Wolf, a CTR! Show me the CTR! 🤓
link to original post
Quote: AxelWolfJust established yourself as a "Professional" Poker player. Play Tight as hell. Keep Special padded Logs, but make them look reasonable, Just inflate or lower the numbers to benefit you.Quote: WizardQuote: SOOPOOHowever, trying to do this repeatedly might get you noticed.
link to original post
Do it at different casinos and/or use confederates.
link to original post
Only one time have I ever been asked for my Information while buying into a $25/$50 LNTH, but that wasn't until the 3rd or 4th session.
Large amounts of cash can be legitimately won and lost, even at lower levels. With a 5/10 NL game, you could be laundering some serious money.
In some places, cash plays and it is truly NL buy-ins. No one blinks an eye when you add chips or cash to your stack. People buy and sell chips at the table from each other all the time. People buy chips on and off the tables as well.
Claim you played in a few private games. Heck, claim you could see the guy's cards sitting to your left and right.
Take pictures of your legit small buy-ins and pictures of your cashouts that your added chips and cash to it.
You could get really creative by adding in slots and table games, tournaments, sports, etc.
At some point, I don't think you would even have to enter a casino that often with some creative thinking logs and reporting.
link to original post
Maybe there were talk to text issues, but this seems to imply that cash in cash out somehow changes the status of the cash. The bills don't know that they're dirty! One $50K stack is no different from another unless the specific bills have been reported stolen.
I'd just hate to go through TSA with that kind of cash and the local cops may be alerted that you are carrying that much cash by the casino itself. The casinos seem to call the cops to pull over people leaving the casino just to get an ID these days.
I don't know what you are getting at. I am talking about ways one can hide/conceal where/how one illegally obtained funds through illegal ways and make it appear that it was earned/obtained legitimately so one can pay taxes and spend the money freely. If we are talking about exchanging stolen bills or turning small bills into large bills, that's a separate issue. Turning small bills into large bills would be easily done in casinos. Exchanging known stolen bills, I assume that would be tricky. I definitely wouldn't want to do that in casinos. I would just buy and sell Crypto from private sellers if I wanted to do that. Or find a source willing to buy it for a discount. I don't really know exactly since I'm not doing those types of things.Quote: MDawgQuote: AxelWolfJust established yourself as a "Professional" Poker player. Play Tight as hell. Keep Special padded Logs, but make them look reasonable, Just inflate or lower the numbers to benefit you.Quote: WizardQuote: SOOPOOHowever, trying to do this repeatedly might get you noticed.
link to original post
Do it at different casinos and/or use confederates.
link to original post
Only one time have I ever been asked for my Information while buying into a $25/$50 LNTH, but that wasn't until the 3rd or 4th session.
Large amounts of cash can be legitimately won and lost, even at lower levels. With a 5/10 NL game, you could be laundering some serious money.
In some places, cash plays and it is truly NL buy-ins. No one blinks an eye when you add chips or cash to your stack. People buy and sell chips at the table from each other all the time. People buy chips on and off the tables as well.
Claim you played in a few private games. Heck, claim you could see the guy's cards sitting to your left and right.
Take pictures of your legit small buy-ins and pictures of your cashouts that your added chips and cash to it.
You could get really creative by adding in slots and table games, tournaments, sports, etc.
At some point, I don't think you would even have to enter a casino that often with some creative thinking logs and reporting.
link to original post
Maybe there were talk to text issues, but this seems to imply that cash in cash out somehow changes the status of the cash. The bills don't know that they're dirty! One $50K stack is no different from another unless the specific bills have been reported stolen.
link to original post
No, I am wrong because I had the percentages of jackpots for DDB in mind when I wrote that. IIRC, DDB has roughly 20% of the RTP through jackpots even at the $5 denomination. My bad!Quote: WizardQuote: MentalOver 20 years ago, I saw a group of Russians who would take turns playing a $25 9/6 JBB game and take checks for all of the jackpots. I assumed it was money laundering. It theoretically cost them a little over 2% to turn cash into checks. Mark Brown was running that casino. Google 'gaming executive mark brown casino money laundering'.
link to original post
I show the theoretical cost on $25 9/6 JoB is 5.13%.
This is based on an RTP on the small wins (full house or less) of 91.11%. You would need to cycle through the original buy-in 1/(1-0.911103) = 11.24901562 times to either lose it or convert it to cash. The expected loss on that is 11.24901562*(1-0.995439) = 0.051306.
I welcome correction, as always, if I'm wrong.
link to original post
If the casino would let you get away with aggressive double-up of every win, they could launder money with a cost of 0.466%.
There are numerous complex ways one can launder money, in this case, exchange bills(I believe that also falls under the money laundering umbrella)Quote: jjjooogggWith an atm business. One turns twenties into electronic bank deposits. I used to run independent operator atm’s.
link to original post
Casinos just happen to be a well known 'easier", less complex way'
I forgot to take the money out of my pockets and when removing my pants from the dryer and folding them discovered the error.
Want to refigure how that works out on a $25 machine instead of a 25 cent machine? Lose $10 per hand at $125/spin. After 20K hands that'd be a $200K loss. Two Royal Flushes behind in half the hands required to win just one.
Quote: MentalNo, I am wrong because I had the percentages of jackpots for DDB in mind when I wrote that. IIRC, DDB has roughly 20% of the RTP through jackpots even at the $5 denomination. My bad!
For $25 9/6 DDB, I show the cost to convert is 4.5733%.
The playthrough is a lot less than JoB at only 4.487x.
link to original post
Only once? This was a fairly common thing for me. I occasionally still do it if I happen to do some wash.Quote: darkozI do admit to laundering cash once.
I forgot to take the money out of my pockets and when removing my pants from the dryer and folding them discovered the error.
link to original post
Quote: WizardQuote: MentalNo, I am wrong because I had the percentages of jackpots for DDB in mind when I wrote that. IIRC, DDB has roughly 20% of the RTP through jackpots even at the $5 denomination. My bad!
For $25 9/6 DDB, I show the cost to convert is 4.5733%.
The playthrough is a lot less than JoB at only 4.487x.
link to original post
link to original postFind one with double up and you'll lower your cost significantly.
Quote: AxelWolfOnly once? This was a fairly common thing for me. I occasionally still do it if I happen to do some wash.Quote: darkozI do admit to laundering cash once.
I forgot to take the money out of my pockets and when removing my pants from the dryer and folding them discovered the error.
link to original post
link to original post
Well probably only once because I only did my laundry once, lol.
I was so bored I just paid people or had my girlfriends do it for me
Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfOnly once? This was a fairly common thing for me. I occasionally still do it if I happen to do some wash.Quote: darkozI do admit to laundering cash once.
I forgot to take the money out of my pockets and when removing my pants from the dryer and folding them discovered the error.
link to original post
link to original post
Well probably only once because I only did my laundry once, lol.
I was so bored I just paid people or had my girlfriends do it for me
link to original post
I laundered my cell phone once and various other things including cash many times.
Quote: rainmanQuote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfOnly once? This was a fairly common thing for me. I occasionally still do it if I happen to do some wash.Quote: darkozI do admit to laundering cash once.
I forgot to take the money out of my pockets and when removing my pants from the dryer and folding them discovered the error.
link to original post
link to original post
Well probably only once because I only did my laundry once, lol.
I was so bored I just paid people or had my girlfriends do it for me
link to original post
I laundered my cell phone once and various other things including cash many times.
link to original post
I have probably laundered 100 USB flash drives.
Quote: AxelWolfOnly once? This was a fairly common thing for me. I occasionally still do it if I happen to do some wash.
link to original post
Trivia time! What is "paper" money made of, which enables it to survive a wash?
Quote: WizardQuote: AxelWolfOnly once? This was a fairly common thing for me. I occasionally still do it if I happen to do some wash.
link to original post
Trivia time! What is "paper" money made of, which enables it to survive a wash?
link to original post
[/spoiler] I assume you are referring to linen[spoiler/q]
Quote: AxelWolfThere are numerous complex ways one can launder money, in this case, exchange bills(I believe that also falls under the money laundering umbrella)Quote: jjjooogggWith an atm business. One turns twenties into electronic bank deposits. I used to run independent operator atm’s.
link to original post
Casinos just happen to be a well known 'easier", less complex way'
link to original post
If I were laundering money, I'd think it would be good to use businesses where my every move is not on video.
Quote: billryanQuote: AxelWolfThere are numerous complex ways one can launder money, in this case, exchange bills(I believe that also falls under the money laundering umbrella)Quote: jjjooogggWith an atm business. One turns twenties into electronic bank deposits. I used to run independent operator atm’s.
link to original post
Casinos just happen to be a well known 'easier", less complex way'
link to original post
If I were laundering money, I'd think it would be good to use businesses where my every move is not on video.
link to original post
Is there such a business in the yesr 2023?
Quote: billryanQuote: AxelWolfThere are numerous complex ways one can launder money, in this case, exchange bills(I believe that also falls under the money laundering umbrella)Quote: jjjooogggWith an atm business. One turns twenties into electronic bank deposits. I used to run independent operator atm’s.
link to original post
Casinos just happen to be a well known 'easier", less complex way'
link to original post
If I were laundering money, I'd think it would be good to use businesses where my every move is not on video.
link to original post
The atm owner is not necessarily on video. It is an easy way to launder but it is not an ideal way. I dont think that atm’s is a sought way. The bank can detect that money is being laundered by atm’s if they are alerted to investigate. Guessing it is possible someone has got away with it.
No doubt there are better "safer" ways for someone to launder money. That might be more complex and require a start-up cost etc. and leave your records, books, and receipts open for scrutiny. The government probably knows how much certain business models should be making and what seems fishy.Quote: billryanQuote: AxelWolfThere are numerous complex ways one can launder money, in this case, exchange bills(I believe that also falls under the money laundering umbrella)Quote: jjjooogggWith an atm business. One turns twenties into electronic bank deposits. I used to run independent operator atm’s.
link to original post
Casinos just happen to be a well known 'easier", less complex way'
link to original post
If I were laundering money, I'd think it would be good to use businesses where my every move is not on video.
link to original post
When gambling one only needs to keep logs of wins and losses on the honor system when it comes to the IRS. I don't know exactly what or who they are looking at when it comes to laundering money in casinos.
You can ask yourself why are there such large amounts laundered in casinos if there are easier better options.
I know many other countries have implemented rules requiring one to prove their source of funds. Apparently, that has caused a big drop in casino money laundering.
No doubt there is a huge amount of money laundering in the NFT and Crypto world, I assume that's probably a lot easier to do at high volumes.
You mentioned no limit hold em cash games.Quote: AxelWolfThere are numerous complex ways one can launder money, in this case, exchange bills(I believe that also falls under the money laundering umbrella)
Casinos just happen to be a well known 'easier", less complex way'
link to original post
how do you get a check from the casino doing that?
My personal experience at all the major Strip casinos is that this is not allowed.
And you have the laws and rules that disavow it.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/
Beyond personal experience and what the rules are, we have mere speculation.
I offered this Challenge that I backed up with $25,000. that no one would get away with it. No one took me up on it.
Quote: MDawgYou may toss out a free wheeling Marx brothers approach to all this, and claim that "casinos don't follow the rules" and "there are ways to do this or that" but the fact remains that it is ILLEGAL to straight convert cash to check at the casino, and anyone getting away with it is breaking the law. The very intent of money laundering is to convert cash into some form other than a cash instrument, ideally without detection.
My personal experience at all the major Strip casinos is that this is not allowed.
And you have the laws and rules that disavow it.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/
Beyond personal experience and what the rules are, we have mere speculation.
I offered this Challenge that I backed up with $25,000. that no one would get away with it. No one took me up on it.
link to original post
DarkOz says he can do it if “a few hands if whatever” is high limit slots. Win or lose a few hundred but have converted cash into hand pays that are in checks.
Quote: unJonQuote: MDawgYou may toss out a free wheeling Marx brothers approach to all this, and claim that "casinos don't follow the rules" and "there are ways to do this or that" but the fact remains that it is ILLEGAL to straight convert cash to check at the casino, and anyone getting away with it is breaking the law. The very intent of money laundering is to convert cash into some form other than a cash instrument, ideally without detection.
My personal experience at all the major Strip casinos is that this is not allowed.
And you have the laws and rules that disavow it.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/
Beyond personal experience and what the rules are, we have mere speculation.
I offered this Challenge that I backed up with $25,000. that no one would get away with it. No one took me up on it.
link to original post
DarkOz says he can do it if “a few hands if whatever” is high limit slots. Win or lose a few hundred but have converted cash into hand pays that are in checks.
link to original post
I believe MDawg has specified table games.
Also it's not like putting cash in and then cashing it right back out. As you pointed out it requires wagering and risk.
From a technical perspective the argument can be made that you DID gamble and DID win a jackpot so there is nothing illegitimate about the reporting.
MDawg seems to feel the IRS discounts their own tax reporting documents as suspicious. I don't especially if you pay your taxes directly at the moment of slot win.
MDawg refuses to discuss that aspect so he knows I am correct
Quote: darkoz
MDawg refuses to discuss that aspect so he knows I am correct
link to original post
That's a suspension worthy misquote / misstatement.
I don't discuss it further because I disagree with him, and we went back and forth enough times to know that neither of us will acquiesce.
Quote: MDawgQuote: darkoz
MDawg refuses to discuss that aspect so he knows I am correct
link to original post
That's a suspension worthy misquote / misstatement.
I don't discuss it further because I disagree with him, and we went back and forth enough times to know that neither of us will acquiesce.
link to original post
MDawg, I like you and enjoy your posts. But if DO gets suspended for that while you didn’t get suspended for the ethnic slurs, then I fear OnceDear will be losing his WMOAT trophy.
Quote: MDawgQuote: darkoz
MDawg refuses to discuss that aspect so he knows I am correct
link to original post
That's a suspension worthy misquote / misstatement.
I don't discuss it further because I disagree with him, and we went back and forth enough times to know that neither of us will acquiesce.
link to original post
I didn't quote nor make a misstatements.
It's a fact as you even state above that you refuse to discuss the subject further. I stated you refuse to discuss the subject so my statement is correct and true.
Furthermore you admit you engaged initially in this discussion. I point out that you went totally silent when I pointed out additional evidence. You didn't respond that you finished with the subject. You went totally radio silent.
My belief that it's because you know I am correct is my opinion but certainly not any type of misquote or misstatement
Quote: 100xOddsYou mentioned no limit hold em cash games.Quote: AxelWolfThere are numerous complex ways one can launder money, in this case, exchange bills(I believe that also falls under the money laundering umbrella)
Casinos just happen to be a well known 'easier", less complex way'
link to original post
how do you get a check from the casino doing that?
link to original post
I don't know if someone can easily get a check from poker cash winnings. I'm sure the right people can under the right circumstances.
Why do you need checks to launder money?
This is kind of misleading, you gave little time for anyone to define the challenge, or step up. I discussed this with Mike. I said I was willing to go soon and put up 25k with him for 10 days while we defined the terms if you would do the same.Quote: MDawgii/72/#post895875]offered this Challenge that I backed up with $25,000. that no one would get away with it. No one took me up on it.
You weren't willing to put up the money on deposit with Mike.
Quote: WizardAs to the one about the $9,000 and getting a check, I think Mdawg is right on that one. There are strict regulations against laundering cash for checks and the Vegas casinos I find are strict about following them, to varying degrees. I would like to bet on Mdawg's side of that challenge.
link to original post
This from a guy who says he can't remember combination lock codes, and yet, he read it once and understood it enough to back it. You couldn't read it and understand it in the two days I left it open for you to accept?
Everyone else who read it UnJon, D.Oz, TWu, everyone, seemed to understand it.
You sure were quick to say that you would buy Wizard's watch, unconditionally, sight unseen. Until you thought about it some more, that is.
You couldn't make a decision on this Challenge, yes or no, in two days? There was nothing to define, I proposed something, Wizard was ready to back it, and you were still going on and on about who knows what that had nothing to do with my Challenge. You obviously read it enough to understand that it was over $25,000., which that figure was mentioned below the clear definition of what exactly the Challenge was.
Your demanding that I put up money and then we negotiate what was already clearly proposed was nothing short of unseemly.
Quote: MDawgHow about if you go deposit $9000. cash at the cage at Wynn, go play a few hands of whatever, such that your win or loss is in the hundreds of dollars only, and then go back to the cage and get one check for the entire withdrawal - the $9000. plus or minus the few hundred.
If you can do that, I'll give you $25,000.
If you cannot, you will give me $25,000.
I'll leave this Challenge offer open until tomorrow. If you accept it we can figure out how to police it, but we really need little policing because you cannot get it done.
link to original post
So what happens if someone puts $3000 in a slot, plays for half an hour and breaks relatively even, cashing out $3000.
Let's say they return later and does the same thing.
And this goes on for a total of four times.
Now the player has done $12,000 of tito, but lost nor gained any money.
Is that considered a transaction over ten grand?
Does a transaction have to be a loss or win of over ten K to trigger a CTR or just money flow.
It seems ridiculous for someone to have a CTR filed and they exit with exactly the same amount they entered
Thanks
Not a big deal.
Quote: darkozI guess this question is for DRich. He seems the expert at cash reporting.
So what happens if someone puts $3000 in a slot, plays for half an hour and breaks relatively even, cashing out $3000.
Let's say they return later and does the same thing.
And this goes on for a total of four times.
Now the player has done $12,000 of tito, but lost nor gained any money.
Is that considered a transaction over ten grand?
Does a transaction have to be a loss or win of over ten K to trigger a CTR or just money flow.
It seems ridiculous for someone to have a CTR filed and they exit with exactly the same amount they entered
Thanks
link to original post
That should definitely generate a CTR since you deposited over $10k in cash into the machine. The reporting regulations do not care where the cash came from.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkozI guess this question is for DRich. He seems the expert at cash reporting.
So what happens if someone puts $3000 in a slot, plays for half an hour and breaks relatively even, cashing out $3000.
Let's say they return later and does the same thing.
And this goes on for a total of four times.
Now the player has done $12,000 of tito, but lost nor gained any money.
Is that considered a transaction over ten grand?
Does a transaction have to be a loss or win of over ten K to trigger a CTR or just money flow.
It seems ridiculous for someone to have a CTR filed and they exit with exactly the same amount they entered
Thanks
link to original post
That should definitely generate a CTR since you deposited over $10k in cash into the machine. The reporting regulations do not care where the cash came from.
link to original post
Based on personal knowledge I don't believe that is followed.
The following did occur. Mind you this would be circa 2014.
I did doey/don't card building at E-roulette. At the Borgata. It was the only electronic table games at the time.
Usually bet $500 vs. $500 so as not to trigger a W2-G.
One time one side won heavily while the other lost. One players card won over ten grand.
I know because besides keeping track, the card pin locked once passing ten grand in winning.
The player was with me and I went up to the rewards desk where they notified the player they must hand over their SS# due to winning over ten grand (they never mentioned CTR reporting. The person with me was unaware and confused. In the end he refused to hand over his SS# and rewards informed him he would not have access to comps. Yeah I took a loss on that card)..
But here is the issue. Obviously the OTHER player lost over ten grand because of the doey/don't system.
And that card did not get pin-locked and I had no problem with using the card for comps.
I try to avoid these situations but Over the years this has repeated a few times at different casinos in different states as my crew didn't keep track of wins and losses at various times whether E-Baccarat or E-Craps. The winning card is pin locked, the losing card is not. The winning patron is asked for SSN to unlock their offers (usually they refuse and I don't blame them.)
I therefore challenge the belief that its specifically cash in and cash out as well as specifically losses. It appears to be specifically done by casinos for winning only.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkozI guess this question is for DRich. He seems the expert at cash reporting.
So what happens if someone puts $3000 in a slot, plays for half an hour and breaks relatively even, cashing out $3000.
Let's say they return later and does the same thing.
And this goes on for a total of four times.
Now the player has done $12,000 of tito, but lost nor gained any money.
Is that considered a transaction over ten grand?
Does a transaction have to be a loss or win of over ten K to trigger a CTR or just money flow.
It seems ridiculous for someone to have a CTR filed and they exit with exactly the same amount they entered
Thanks
link to original post
That should definitely generate a CTR since you deposited over $10k in cash into the machine. The reporting regulations do not care where the cash came from.
link to original post
I hate this thread (sort of), but….. are you telling me if I am bouncing machine to machine uncarded and run $1k each through 40 or so machines, intermittently cash out around that $40k,the casino has a legal obligation to identify me and fill out the papers? I just don’t see it.
Quote: SOOPOOQuote: DRichQuote: darkozI guess this question is for DRich. He seems the expert at cash reporting.
So what happens if someone puts $3000 in a slot, plays for half an hour and breaks relatively even, cashing out $3000.
Let's say they return later and does the same thing.
And this goes on for a total of four times.
Now the player has done $12,000 of tito, but lost nor gained any money.
Is that considered a transaction over ten grand?
Does a transaction have to be a loss or win of over ten K to trigger a CTR or just money flow.
It seems ridiculous for someone to have a CTR filed and they exit with exactly the same amount they entered
Thanks
link to original post
That should definitely generate a CTR since you deposited over $10k in cash into the machine. The reporting regulations do not care where the cash came from.
link to original post
I hate this thread (sort of), but….. are you telling me if I am bouncing machine to machine uncarded and run $1k each through 40 or so machines, intermittently cash out around that $40k,the casino has a legal obligation to identify me and fill out the papers? I just don’t see it.
link to original post
They have an obligation to try and identify you and report it.
