Laundering cash to check at table games.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: TomG

are Mike and MDawg really offering $25k to anyone who can get a casino check for chips without playing table games? I would definitely be down for that.
link to original post

Mike probably won't take part in the bet, he just assumed MDawg was correct.

I didn't bother even reading all of Mdawg's challenge and wasn't attempting any negotiations/stipulations until we both had good faith money on deposit.

Mike contact me regarding this. I said there was no point in discussing the terms because I have been through this before and It's a waste of time to negotiate terms because goalposts get moved.

I told Mike he could tell MDawg that I will Bring 25k to him first ASAP, as so long as MDawg puts up 25k on a no-penalty deposit/escrow for 10 days while we negotiate terms.

I haven't heard back.
link to original post

This is why nothing ever gets solved in this forum and everyone is arguing for years on end. Everyone has to make everything a "bet" or a "challenge."

If you make a serious gambling-related claim, you should have to immediately prove it or get banned.

Have an unbeatable roulette system? Prove it or get banned.

Think you can do this or that with casino chips or a check or whatever? Prove it or get banned.

Enough with challenges and negotiations and moving goal posts.

Immediately prove it or get banned.

Quote: GenoDRPh

I don't have a dog in this fight, but am willing to defer to MDawg's expertise, unless more credible information is forthcoming from someone else to refute his claims, That being said, I have a question: If someone plays on credit, and is down by the end of the night, how long do they have settle up, pay and get back to even?
link to original post

It depends on the credit line and the casino policies. Many of the casinos will give automatic 60 days if the credit line is $100K or higher (and, $100K or higher ends up being owed).

For most players it is 30 days.

There is one well known mega whale in Vegas who gets a full year on all markers, but we are talking millions owed at a time.

There is a little known exception if the record shows a WIN, the casino will want its marker paid much sooner, like within 15 days or so, if not sooner. That is called "walking with chips." It could happen in a situation where say, a player wins money, cashes out, then comes back later (within say a week so that it is considered the same trip), and loses and leaves a marker owing. The customer might feel like he lost - that session - while the over all record for that "trip" shows a win. If the casino shows that the player walked with chips, it might want more or less immediate payment for the marker.

This is one reason why many casinos shut down the credit line temporarily when a player cashes out any kind of sizable win. The amount that triggers a temp shutdown could be as little as $5000., but any cash out above $10,000. triggers a shutdown unless the player is on a really monstrous run and cashing out $10,000 or so would be a pittance compared to the over all win.

This has nothing to do with any kind of regulation or CTR threshold, just has to do with that casinos don't want players to cash out a bunch of money and then have their lines open. They want such winning players to just play with their winnings and forget about their credit lines for a while, if they have cashed out.

This "temp shutdown policy" may be negotiated, at some casinos (at others, it is absolute). The player may ask the host to put some notation on there to never shut the line down no matter how much is cashed out, but this negotiation is available only to big players (like me 😉).

A temp shutdown is not just done to try to encourage the player to deposit ALL his winning chips with the casino (in the hopes that the player might lose them all, if he gets on a bad run), but also to prevent situations where a player wins, cashes out, goes to another casino, blows all the winnings and maybe even ends up owing there too, then comes back chasing losses, loses again, and now owes two entire credit lines. Meaning, that the casino wants to keep winning chips in house, at least until the player is done playing for the trip. They don't want to see a player win big at their place and then end up owing them and another casino, when they show a win and now have to ask the player to pay up immediately because they don't even show a loss for him.

If you're a credit line player and you win big and go to the cage, most of the cage cashiers will ask, "Are you done playing?" alerting to you that your line is going to be temp shut down if you cash out that much. The length of a temp shut down varies - at some casinos it is 72 hours, at others a full week. The length of the temp shutdown also depends on if you're staying in house - if in house, the shut down will be longer, but in no case longer than about a week.

It wouldn't be laundering money because of the CTR. It would be the opposite of laundering. It is waving a flag to the irs, i have unexplained cash.

I’ve never done this. Yet, I’ve thought about this after watching the movie “lethal weapon” with Joe Pesci.

Open a business. Make up fictitious sales for customers that dont exist. Pay for supplies that are never used. Write into a ledger fictitious revenue collected from fictitious customers. Deposit revenue into a bank.

Well if the cash used to BUY the chips is over $10K, then yes, a CTR.

But if the cash input is $9000., such as in my Cash for Check wager example, no CTR.

On the way out, IF a check is issued, no CTR.


As far as your example, yes that is exactly the way a lot of criminals do it, it's called...a FRONT.

Quote: MDawg

Well if the cash used to BUY the chips is over $10K, then yes, a CTR.

But if the cash input is $9000., such as in my Cash for Check wager example, no CTR.

On the way out, IF a check is issued, no CTR.


As far as your example, yes that is exactly the way a lot of criminals do it, it's called...a FRONT.
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CTR’s are sometimes generated below 10k at discretion for that strategy.

Perhaps you are referring to a SAR.

CTR only if 10K or more cash/cash instrument over 24 hours.

By the way, if the person is already identified, asks about whether a CTR is going to be filed, argues about it and then declines to follow through with the transaction, the bank is supposed to then file a SAR.

Called cash structuring. Will trigger what you said an SAR.

Quote: MDawg

Is there something missing from this story?

No.

One place was on the strip that I don't have much use for anymore, one place near the strip I was backed off from so won't use anymore, one place is downtown where I could bring my chips to the cashier for a check anytime. Current win/loss report from the DT casino shows +2049 for 2023 with no table game play at all and I don't have to buy the chips from the tables or cage. Compliance department is certain there isn't any money laundering. Anyone could do it with minimal hoops to jump through.

Quote: MDawg

I assume he had some irrelevant idea to bypass the challenge, such as mailing in a winning sports ticket and getting a check for it, which - anyway, even there he would have had to WIN to get the check, 🤯 and that has nothing to do with table games.

Usually have a few minutes to bet rainouts and cancelled fights, sometimes even up to hour before the line is taken down.

Bet first inning and there is often a greater than 50% chance that only the stake is returned, with no winnings.

Or mail in an Alabama money line ticket and get a check that is like 1% winnings and 99% stake.

You didn't address any of what I asked to specify whether whatever you're doing is relevant to what we're talking about here, or answer any of the questions I posed to clarify what you might be doing. And then you went off on a tangent.

Quote: MDawg

Are you saying that you

1. Bought chips for cash at a table game or directly at the cage,
2. Then, with no play or win history on your player account, turned right around and cashed those same chips at the cage
3. And received a check for all of them?
4. Such that you could do it again, exactly as noted 1 – 3, for $15,000. in one shot, and again $55,000 cash in one shot, converting $55,000 cash to a single cage check?

If so, where were these multiple casinos. Vegas? because I know your other screen name used to imply that you were in Vegas. And how long ago did you do this, and for howwwww much?

If 1 - 3 don't apply, then whatever you are talking about might be irrelevant to the subject matter at hand and might concern who knows what.
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I assume there's a reason for that, but until you clarify whatever you claim to be able to do, your post doesn't mean much. Sports Tickets have their own rules as posted on the back of the tickets. You're running off on some tangent which is that "I can get a check without playing table games" - what does that have to do with it?

Since you say you're not playing table games who knows what is going on, but it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. TABLE GAMES. When I get a check, as a credit line player, for table games it means 100% that I won. There is no other scenario in which a check would be issued to me.

And no table game player who buys in for cash is going to get a check absent showing a verified win, and even then only for the verified table game win portion.

Point is, you could not do this:
Cash for Check Wager
If you think you can, let's go to Wynn and do the wager. I'll leave this wager open for Tom G until the end of today.

Quote: MDawg

You didn't address any of what I asked to specify whether whatever you're doing is relevant to what we're talking about here, or answer any of the questions I posed to clarify what you might be doing. And then you went off on a tangent.

I assume there's a reason for that, but until you clarify whatever you claim to be able to do, your post doesn't mean much.
link to original post

Compared to what? Your claims?

You never even went back and addressed whether you know or don't know anything about what is going at your bank or elsewhere with those CTRs or SARs.

Quote: MDawg

You never even went back and addressed whether you know or don't know anything about what is going at your bank or elsewhere with those CTRs or SARs.
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Okay. I just assumed after you explained it, no comment was needed. As usual, you nailed it so perfectly I figured no further explanation was required. After hundreds, if not thousands of CTRs garnered over the past two decades, it was great to understand what those self-explanatory forms were all about finally. I still don't get why you think they are a big deal. Tens of thousands of CTRs are sent to a division of the Dept. of Treasury every day, where they are filed away with the millions of forms they already have. Some of you act like a dedicated agent is waiting on the bank to forward your forms so they can be examined under a microscope.
CTRs are another layer of bureaucracy that allows people to cover their asses and feel good about the war on whatever.

Good enough. I was just pointing out that the fact that your bank doesn't have access to your tax returns isn't all there is to it.

I would agree that having a CTR filed isn't necessarily a red flag. Or even lots of CTRs. For example, I might pull a hundred grand from one casino, all cash, and then take that same cash or most of it to another casino or two and use it to pay off a marker or two, such as in those Session Reports where I have mentioned losing big at one casino, winning big at another and then pocketing the different plus a loss rebate from the first casino.

I would think though that getting enough SARs filed against a person might lead to some kind of investigation into his activities, which might lead nowhere except legitimacy, or might lead to that a person is up to no good.

My point about TomG and AxelWolf's posts. AxelWolf definitely and Tom G possibly are talking about sports tickets. They have their own rules for cashing as printed on the back of the ticket. And I'm sure if someone were clearly abusing the system to get lots of cash converted into casino checks, something would be done about that person. But I don't do sports tickets I play table games and if they're trying to say that what I know about how it works with table games is wrong, AxelWolf as of last Monday and Tom G as of the end of today, was/are free to challenge me pursuant to my challenge.

The title of this thread.


its first post,

Quote: Wizard

Let's say a player presents $50,000 in cash, plays table games for a few hours and wins $5,000. He presents the $55,000 in chips at the cage and asks for a check. What would happen?
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and my Challenge,

all concern TABLE GAMES.

Quote: MDawg

If you think you can, let's go to Wynn and do the wager. I'll leave this wager open for Tom G until the end of today.


link to original post

Why does it have to be the Wynn? It's not a fair wager if you know something about the Wynn's policies that other people don't...

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: MDawg

If you think you can, let's go to Wynn and do the wager. I'll leave this wager open for Tom G until the end of today.


link to original post

Why does it have to be the Wynn? It's not a fair wager if you know something about the Wynn's policies that other people don't...
link to original post

Exactly, and know how to get around them. Or, he might know someone and alert them to be on the lookout.

Hosts are not supposed to get their customers hookers and blow but that doesn't mean they don't. I'm certain one could arrange something including getting checks if someone wanted to, especially if the host was a friend of yours.

Why not just admit that you've never received a table game related cage check in your life, and never had a casino credit line in your life, so that we may gauge the value of whatever you have to say on the subject.

AxelWolf's voice took on a tone of sepulchral awe..."The Powers that be, say...."

Sands may have violated federal anti-money laundering rules prohibiting casinos from helping players keep their names off the books.

Four people with extensive experience working at Sands’ Venetian and Palazzo casinos say the practice was well-known by the executives and hosts who specialized in drawing this clientele.

Caesars Entertainment Corp casino $8 million for poor anti-money-laundering controls in its VIP salons. Caesars Palace, in a civil settlement with the Treasury Department, admitted permitting high-stakes gamblers to play using other people’s credit, potentially allowing “guests to conceal their identities and transactions” and play anonymously. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-vegas-shell/

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/palms-to-pay-1-million-fine-to-settle-drug-prostitution-complaint/
The host manager said it would not be a problem. About 12:50 a.m., the host manager brought two women to the undercover officer’s table at Moon. According to the complaint, they went to the club’s outdoor deck where the host manager asked whether he “was happy with the girls because (host manager) could provide different girls if (the undercover officer) wanted.”

Quote: MDawg

Quote: AZDuffman

Back to casinos. A guy wants to clean money. So he buys in at the table for $50,000. We will imagine there are no suspicious currency reports at this part. He plays a few hands and gets up from the table. Tells his host, "Can I get a check? I am flying and don't want to have all this cash."

BOOM, clean money! No reports for the bank to file.
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Yes, but the point is that while this might have happened thirty years ago, it cannot happen today.

The host doesn't have any say in it, it's all Casino Compliance these days.

What would actually happen, would be more like this scenario I described.


This casino, for example, got in trouble just for failing to file the CTRs and SARs, never even got to the point of issuing any checks for cash.
Los Angeles casino agrees to pay $500,000 settlement and submit to increased review of anti-money laundering compliance program

Other examples:
21 charged in casino-based money laundering scheme

Cops: Drug money laundered at NH casinos

15-month investigation leads to one of the largest money laundering, game room busts in East Texas history

Vegas casino’s attempt to collect a debt exposes world of Chinese high-rollers

Wynn Investigated For Money Laundering: What It Means

etc.
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I already posted about the Venetian incident above, but what is interesting is that you don't seem to understand what it MEANS, or its relevance here in that you seem to be bringing it up to show that casinos may do what they want. They cannot.

Anyway, both incidents you mention happened 5-8 years ago. Things are getting stricter all the time at casinos with anti-money laundering.

Over all, this interaction is typical of AxelWolf misreading and skimming, which I believe you've admitted more than once that you read only about 25% of whatever is posted by anyone?..we're talking table games and in the back of his mind AWolf is thinking, "I'll mail in a sports ticket!"

Quote: MDawg

Why not just admit that you've never received a table game related check in your life, and never had a casino credit line in your life, so that we may gauge the value of whatever you have to say on the subject.

AxelWolf's voice took on a tone of sepulchral awe..."The Powers that be, say...."
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I haven't ever attempted to get a line of credit at the casino, I don't need it, I just use cash.

I know there are various + EV opportunities and advantages that can be had using lines of credit. Oftentimes you can accomplish those things just by putting upfront money. The problem with that is... the casinos have you by the balls. With a line of credit, you have more leverage.

I have put front money on deposit for table games many times. I would oftentimes put up thousands of dollars in front money, take out markers, play a bit while table hopping with chips, then get comped based on perceived losses, or whatever they based it on. Oftentimes they would comp you directly after putting in upfront money.

You can even get walk-in free play for deposited front money.

I had so many different front money deposits around town that I totally forgot about one place for years. IIRC they sent it to the state for unclaimed money. Perhaps it was just in auditing. I can't remember exactly because I also had the contents of safe deposit boxes sent to the state around that time.

Whatever the case it was no longer in the cage or in the records at the cage. I had to go through auditing to track it down.
But, I do believe I got a check.

Big difference between getting it from the casino or the state.

Quote: AxelWolf

I totally forgot about one place for years.
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After years, it would have no longer been with the casino.

You seem to be a cash and carry type so it makes sense that you'd deposit cash and then withdraw cash for whatever you were doing at the table games, other than the one time you forgot about your deposit, for years.

But without ever having had a credit line, it also makes sense that you wouldn't be able to get your arms around why a casino cage would not issue a check to a credit only player unless he won. I am a marker against credit player, they aren't going to issue a check without making sure my line is clear. So, after clearing the markers what would be left against which to issue a check other than - winnings.

Plus I'm talking about TODAY, you are talking about something from many years ago. Things have changed a lot with how strict they are about anti money laundering.

Quote: MDawg

Quote: MDawg

Quote: AZDuffman

Back to casinos. A guy wants to clean money. So he buys in at the table for $50,000. We will imagine there are no suspicious currency reports at this part. He plays a few hands and gets up from the table. Tells his host, "Can I get a check? I am flying and don't want to have all this cash."

BOOM, clean money! No reports for the bank to file.
link to original post

Yes, but the point is that while this might have happened thirty years ago, it cannot happen today.

The host doesn't have any say in it, it's all Casino Compliance these days.

What would actually happen, would be more like this scenario I described.


This casino, for example, got in trouble just for failing to file the CTRs and SARs, never even got to the point of issuing any checks for cash.
Los Angeles casino agrees to pay $500,000 settlement and submit to increased review of anti-money laundering compliance program

Other examples:
21 charged in casino-based money laundering scheme

Cops: Drug money laundered at NH casinos

15-month investigation leads to one of the largest money laundering, game room busts in East Texas history

Vegas casino’s attempt to collect a debt exposes world of Chinese high-rollers

Wynn Investigated For Money Laundering: What It Means

etc.
link to original post

I already posted about the Venetian incident above, but what is interesting is that you don't seem to understand what it MEANS, or its relevance here in that you seem to be bringing it up to show that casinos may do what they want. They cannot.

Anyway, both incidents you mention happened 5-8 years ago. Things are getting stricter all the time at casinos with anti-money laundering.

Over all, this interaction is typical of AxelWolf misreading and skimming, which I believe you've admitted more than once that you read only about 25% of whatever is posted by anyone?..we're talking table games and in the back of his mind AWolf is thinking, "I'll mail in a sports ticket!"
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I stated that I haven't any clue how or why you got that check, I don't even know if it's real. My position is and was... Posting up a picture of a check doesn't prove you are winning/beating table games. I said I can also get a check from a casino related to gambling while having lost, broken even, or won a little. I have had possibly hundreds of checks from the casinos for various reasons. I even got backed off from getting checks from one particular chain of casinos because they did get suspicious, admittedly it was strange. I had to talk to management in person to get the remaining checks. I'm certain I wrote about the why and how somewhere here.

You don't play credit, and you don't get checks from casinos for table games. It seems like you haven't even played table games in years. Whatever you are talking aabout, as well, happened years ago. So it makes perfect sense that you don't seem know anything much about this including what checks mean or even what they look like today.

Quote: MDawg

Big difference between getting it from the casino or the state.

Quote: AxelWolf

I totally forgot about one place for years.
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After years, it would have no longer been with the casino.

You seem to be a cash and carry type so it makes sense that you'd deposit cash and then withdraw cash for whatever you were doing at the table games, other than the one time you forgot about your deposit, for years.

But without ever having had a credit line, it also makes sense that you wouldn't be able to get your arms around why a casino cage would not issue a check to a credit only player unless he won. I am a marker against credit player, they aren't going to issue a check without making sure my line is clear. So, after clearing the markers what would be left against which to issue a check other than - winnings.

Plus I'm talking about TODAY, you are talking about something from many years ago. Things have changed a lot with how strict they are about anti money laundering.
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Today, tomorrow, yesterday, it doesn't matter... where there's a will, there's a way.

Quote: MDawg

You don't play credit, and you don't get checks from casinos for table games. It seems like you haven't even played table games in years. So it makes perfect sense that you don't know anything much about this.
link to original post

I stated on another forum that you read and possibly here that I don't often play tables anymore.
It's been years since any serious +EV table play. Here and there, perhaps some smaller play.

Anyway, you just go on and on about something from YEARS ago that has little or nothing to do even with what I'm talking about. Talking about getting an unclaimed front money deposit check from the state! (after years of inactivity) as if that proves anything.

As Dieter might say,

Enjoy the rest of your day!

Quote: MDawg

Several things would happen.

When the 50K was presented at the table, assuming the pit boss didn't already know who the player was, would ask for the player's player card or ID. He'd then look to make sure that the player has his identifying information including social security number or foreign passport and identification on record. The pit screen would tell him that player was okayed for submitting over 10K in cash.

If not, the pit boss would ask for the player's ID or passport, and enter all that information, and wait for the system to notify him that the player is fully identified, and good to go for a $10K or higher cash transaction. If not, he'd send him to the cage to submit what else needs to be submitted.

But even after all that, the pit would suggest that the player just go to the cage to have the money counted quickly in their Scarface machines, and converted to chips at the cage, or simply deposited as front money. Depending on the casino, the cage will convert a certain amount of cash to chips, but there is a limit. It would have to be a very high end casino to be willing to hand over 50K in chips at the cage (there is usually a limit to how much in chips the cage will hand over), but any casino will accept the $50K in cash on deposit as front money as long as the player is fully identified.

In either case, whether the cash is accepted and counted out at the table (they will do it in stacks of $2500. at a time and then stuff it all into the cash drop box), or accepted at the cage, a CTR will be filed on that player reflecting $50K cash received (incoming). The player will not be told or know that the CTR is filed, or get a copy of anything - CTRs are simply transactional reports made by the financial entity, in this case the casino, to FinCEN for any cash instrument transaction in or out for $10K or more.

Then the player would play, as described, and win the $5000. Colors up. Now he walks from the table with 55K in chips. Let's assume that the pit boss now notes the player 's account as having won the $5000.

At the cage, if he wanted to cash all 55K in chips out and walk, and wanted a check for as much as possible, he would get $50,000. cash and a $5000. check payable to his name, based on the $5K verified win on his account. The casino cannot issue a check for more than the verified win - to issue a check for more would be money laundering. Known player or not he's not getting a check for more than the verified win.


Otherwise, why even bother with playing? Just go to the table, get $50K in chips for cash and go straight to the cage ask for a $50K check. Or eliminate the table entirely, go straight to the cage present $50K cash and ask for a check.

Remember, we are not talking about going to the bank, depositing $50K and then writing a check on your own account against it, or getting a cashier's check for $50K for it, (and 2/3 of those transactions will result in a CTR incidentally), - because at your own bank the check issued is issued in your name as the issuer/payor, which is legal. At the casino we are talking about ending up with a check issued by a third party business as the payor. Getting a third party business to rinse your money like that is illegal. Ask Scarface.
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I concur with everything MDAWG says. However, I found some casinos that deviate from this and would write the $55K check. I can’t tell you if it’s lack or training or maybe the rules are ignored, but I’ve had several occasions where I was asked if I “wanted the check in the whole amount,” and I’ve said “sure,” and got it.

Well, this brings into question whether when trying to prove a challenge such as this if rules and or the law being broken is acceptable as proof it can be done.

MDawg should perhaps modify that the challenge is to show a legal means to succeed in the challenge.

For example, in NYS, it is illegal for casinos or racinos to accept EBT welfare cards for sign up at the players rewards program. The outrage that people are getting benefits for lack of food and then gambling it away was too much. The politicians moved and it is on NYS lawbooks that EBT cannot be used.

Nonetheless I know of a particular NYS racino which accepts EBT cards for membership in direct violation of the law.

I suspect no one with EBT cards is complaining.

At any rate, If I challenged the ability to sign up with an EBT card because it's factually illegal and someone pointed out is is possible because a casino is factually breaking the law what would that prove I was wrong? Is it enough to claim something can't legally be done?

Taking that to the extreme, for example, if someone claimed they could make out with say a supermodel, and the bet was on, would it count if the person hunted down the supermodel and forcibly raped them? what I am saying is breaking the law to prove something can be done needs to be taken out of the equation.

These checks, at least the large ones I get, and I've gotten checks up to close to a half million for a single win, are signed by two parties. The decision to issue the check is not made by the cashier, it is made by the cage supervisor, and whatever the supervisor does is later reviewed by Compliance.

No one is making a mistake these days. Ten years ago, maybe even five, maybe, but today they are so strict that no one is getting a check absent some legal reason to issue one, which as far as table games are concerned is either a win or return of non-cash front money.

So, if someone got a big check from table game play with almost all of it in action and only a small verified win, it was either a long time ago or the money in action - the front money - was not cash. If the front money is via check or bank wire, then the casino may return it in any form they wish - including like for like.

Otherwise, money launderers would be lining up at the tables, buying 9K every few days of chips, and converting to checks with little or no play. Actually, that's exactly something like what they used to do, years ago.

Casinos are very strict especially nowadays with their anti-money laundering provisions.

31 CFR § 1021.210 provides that casinos must implement anti-money laundering provisions. Allowing a check to be issued in exchange for cash, for example, is definitely not anti-money laundering!

In general, a check issued by a casino is only pursuant to a win.

This was from 1996
https://lasvegassun.com/news/1996/jun/09/laundering-laws-keep-casinos-in-check/

Nevada also bars certain transactions the Bank Secrecy Act allows. Specifically, it says casinos can't:

* Exchange more than $2,500 in cash for bills of a larger denomination.

* Issue a casino check in exchange for more than $2,500 in cash.

* Transfer more than $2,500 by wire or other means.


Again, the above were the rules in 1996.

And the rules are MUCH stricter today.

Kansas City Chiefs superfan indicted on bank robbery, money laundering charges
CNN — A federal grand jury indicted a man known as a Kansas City Chiefs superfan, who goes by “ChiefsAholic” on social media, with robbing several banks and laundering the money through casinos, the US Attorney’s Office for the Western District of Missouri announced.
Partial copy: August 19, 2023
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/19/us/kansas-city-chiefs-fan-indictment/index.html

A criminal complaint filed against Babudar in May linked him to six robberies. He is accused of stealing more than $845,000 and of involvement in two attempted robberies, according to authorities. The indictment filed on Wednesday replaced the original federal criminal complaint from May.

He is also accused of laundering the stolen money by purchasing and redeeming more than $1 million in chips from casinos in Missouri, Kansas and Illinois, an affidavit filed in support of the complaint revealed.

Months before his arrest, Babudar allegedly used some of the stolen money to place wagers at an Illinois sportsbook, including two separate $5,000 bets for the Chiefs to win Super Bowl LVII and for Kansas City quarterback Patrick Mahomes to win the game’s Most Valuable Player award.

After the Chiefs’ Super Bowl victory, and Mahomes was named MVP of the game, Babudar was mailed a $100,000 check in March, according to authorities.

Babudar cut his ankle monitor days later and fled Oklahoma before he was re-arrested in Sacramento, California, in early July, according to the indictment. He remains in federal custody without bond.

nevermind.

CTR or SAR might have caught him. Its technically laundering but a dumb way.

I was told that the IRS is looking at gifts accumulating $600 per year for tax evasion.



q=ChumpChange]Kansas City Chiefs superfan indicted on bank robbery, money laundering charges
CNN — A federal grand jury indicted a man known as a Kansas City Chiefs superfan, who goes by “ChiefsAholic” on social media, with robbing several banks and laundering the money through casinos, the US Attorney’s Office for the Western District of Missouri announced.
Partial copy: August 19, 2023
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/19/us/kansas-city-chiefs-fan-indictment/index.html

A criminal complaint filed against Babudar in May linked him to six robberies. He is accused of stealing more than $845,000 and of involvement in two attempted robberies, according to authorities. The indictment filed on Wednesday replaced the original federal criminal complaint from May.

He is also accused of laundering the stolen money by purchasing and redeeming more than $1 million in chips from casinos in Missouri, Kansas and Illinois, an affidavit filed in support of the complaint revealed.

Months before his arrest, Babudar allegedly used some of the stolen money to place wagers at an Illinois sportsbook, including two separate $5,000 bets for the Chiefs to win Super Bowl LVII and for Kansas City quarterback Patrick Mahomes to win the game’s Most Valuable Player award.

After the Chiefs’ Super Bowl victory, and Mahomes was named MVP of the game, Babudar was mailed a $100,000 check in March, according to authorities.

Babudar cut his ankle monitor days later and fled Oklahoma before he was re-arrested in Sacramento, California, in early July, according to the indictment. He remains in federal custody without bond.
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Quote: jjjoooggg

I was told that the IRS is looking at gifts accumulating $600 per year for tax evasion.

They are basically looking at any income over $600 because at that amount a 1099 should be given.

Quote: DRich

Quote: jjjoooggg

I was told that the IRS is looking at gifts accumulating $600 per year for tax evasion.

They are basically looking at any income over $600 because at that amount a 1099 should be given.
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I have some vague recollection of being paid $599 for a medical survey.

Forgive me if this point has been raised before.

What could go wrong with this strategy, over and over, to launder cash, assuming you don't mind volatility?

1. Buy chips with cash.
2. Play aggressively at blackjack, using basic strategy, until you double up or go bust.
3. If you go bust, go back to step 1.
4. If you win, ask for a check for the winning and original buy-in in cash.
5. Go to step 1 with cash.

Yes, it's volatile and you'll lose some to the house edge. With even a weak card-counting strategy you can eliminate the house edge. Each time you do this, you can expect to launder half your cash.

Quote: Wizard

Forgive me if this point has been raised before.

What could go wrong with this strategy, over and over, to launder cash, assuming you don't mind volatility?

1. Buy chips with cash.
2. Play aggressively at blackjack, using basic strategy, until you double up or go bust.
3. If you go bust, go back to step 1.
4. If you win, ask for a check for the winning and original buy-in in cash.
5. Go to step 1 with cash.

Yes, it's volatile and you'll lose some to the house edge. With even a weak card-counting strategy you can eliminate the house edge. Each time you do this, you can expect to launder half your cash.
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Bingo! As long as you are willing to ‘pay’ the house edge for the ability to turn cash into a check, it wouldn’t be hard at all. However, trying to do this repeatedly might get you noticed. But to do it once would be quite easy.

If you ‘Venmo’ or ‘Zelle’ someone money, is that like giving them cash, or like giving them a check?

Okay I re-read that. Does this part of Step 3 "ask for a check for the winning and original buy-in in cash" mean that you get a check only for your winnings, and get back the non-win portion as cash?

If so, yes they will do that.

Otherwise, if step 3 implies that you will get a check for all of your chips, you will not - only for the verified win porrtion.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/

Quote: SOOPOO

However, trying to do this repeatedly might get you noticed.
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Do it at different casinos and/or use confederates.

Quote: Wizard

Quote: SOOPOO

However, trying to do this repeatedly might get you noticed.
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Do it at different casinos and/or use confederates.
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Just established yourself as a "Professional" Poker player. Play Tight as hell. Keep Special padded Logs, but make them look reasonable, Just inflate or lower the numbers to benefit you.

Only one time have I ever been asked for my Information while buying into a $25/$50 LNTH, but that wasn't until the 3rd or 4th session.

Large amounts of cash can be legitimately won and lost, even at lower levels. With a 5/10 NL game, you could be laundering some serious money.

In some places, cash plays and it is truly NL buy-ins. No one blinks an eye when you add chips or cash to your stack. People buy and sell chips at the table from each other all the time. People buy chips on and off the tables as well.

Claim you played in a few private games. Heck, claim you could see the guy's cards sitting to your left and right.
Take pictures of your legit small buy-ins and pictures of your cashouts that your added chips and cash to it.
You could get really creative by adding in slots and table games, tournaments, sports, etc.

At some point, I don't think you would even have to enter a casino that often with some creative thinking logs and reporting.

It looks normal for gamblers to play with lots of cash everyday. Some have lost their entire savings to gambling.

Seems normal to ask for a check.

I wonder if the IRS would detect casino checks deposited into the bank.

If you're playing for double or nothing on a session buy-in for the day, it depends on the minimum checks amount the casino will issue. If it's $5K, you'll have to buy-in with $5K and cash-out with $10K of chips and according to MDawg, you'll get $5K cash back and a check for $5K. If the minimum casino check is for $10K, you'll have to buy-in for $10K and win to $20K of chips. You'll go to the cage and get a $10K check and $10K of cash and a CTR filed for the buy-in and the cash-out, maybe on the same form, but if it's not for a penny over $10K there will be no CTR. So tip those dealers your overage..

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: Wizard

Forgive me if this point has been raised before.

What could go wrong with this strategy, over and over, to launder cash, assuming you don't mind volatility?

1. Buy chips with cash.
2. Play aggressively at blackjack, using basic strategy, until you double up or go bust.
3. If you go bust, go back to step 1.
4. If you win, ask for a check for the winning and original buy-in in cash.
5. Go to step 1 with cash.

Yes, it's volatile and you'll lose some to the house edge. With even a weak card-counting strategy you can eliminate the house edge. Each time you do this, you can expect to launder half your cash.
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Bingo! As long as you are willing to ‘pay’ the house edge for the ability to turn cash into a check, it wouldn’t be hard at all. However, trying to do this repeatedly might get you noticed. But to do it once would be quite easy.

If you ‘Venmo’ or ‘Zelle’ someone money, is that like giving them cash, or like giving them a check?
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Zelle has very low limits, so money laundering is out. It differs from bank to bank, but Wells Fargo limits me to sending $2500 a day and I believe $7,000 a week to the same person.

Quote: Wizard

Quote: SOOPOO

However, trying to do this repeatedly might get you noticed.
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Do it at different casinos and/or use confederates.
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Bingo! You have just passed ‘Money Laundering 101’ at your local university.
I still think accumulating lots of $5k ish checks from a casino without any other easily identified legal source of income will likely be a red flag. Somehow getting a single very large jackpot type check for 6 or 7 figures would be under less scrutiny.

Mike…. You have in the past played -EV games for WoV to be able to report on ‘what happens’. Why don’t you go to the petty change drawer, take out $4k, go make a single baccarat bet, win, and ask for a check and see what happens?

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: Wizard

Quote: SOOPOO

However, trying to do this repeatedly might get you noticed.
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Do it at different casinos and/or use confederates.
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Bingo! You have just passed ‘Money Laundering 101’ at your local university.
I still think accumulating lots of $5k ish checks from a casino without any other easily identified legal source of income will likely be a red flag. Somehow getting a single very large jackpot type check for 6 or 7 figures would be under less scrutiny.
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MDawg believes this as well.

I'm curious if accumulation of checks WITH significant play versus accumulation of checks WITHOUT significant play will look any different in your estimation.

In other words is simply gambling in a casino without a separate source of income considered suspicious?

The IRS allows people to file as a professional gambler. It seems a bit weird to be able to claim that if the IRS would automatically assume their own classification was suspicious activities.

Quote: SOOPOO

Mike…. You have in the past played -EV games for WoV to be able to report on ‘what happens’. Why don’t you go to the petty change drawer, take out $4k, go make a single baccarat bet, win, and ask for a check and see what happens?
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Did I ever claim they would say "yes"? (Do I put the question mark inside the quotes?) In my previous post, I indicated you should grind through some play for a while.

Quote: MDawg

Only cash or cash instruments are reported via CTR. Not checks, not cashier's checks, not bank wires. However if the SOURCE of the checks, cashier's checks, or bank wires was originally cash, that input of cash is reported.

You're either finding faulty sources or not reading them in their entirety.

Okay you have to start reading this stuff more thoroughly, lest it lead to misinformation.

Form 8300 is not a CTR.

And the reporting of other than straight cash as far as Form 8300 is for

It's also cash equivalents that include cashier's checks (sometimes called a treasurer's check or bank check), bank drafts, traveler's checks or money orders with a face amount of $10,000 or less that a person receives for:

A designated reporting transaction or
Any transaction in which the person knows the payer is trying to avoid the reporting requirement.

"A designated reporting transaction or Any transaction in which the person knows the payer is trying to avoid the reporting requirement" does not mean that every time a business is paid via a big check it has to report anything.

Plus Form 8300 is not for casinos as far as their dealing with players, casinos deal in CTRs as far as their interaction with players.


Anyway, you may deposit a check, cashier's check or send in a bank wire for any amount to the casino or bank, nothing will be reported. I've received bank wires and deposited regular checks or cashier's checks seven figures in my line of business, nothing has ever been reported. You may also receive a check or wire from a casino for any amount, if it is pursuant to a table game win, nothing will be reported.
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So withdrawing $10k+ cash from your bank results in a CTR?