Laundering cash to check at table games.

So you can win $29K, take a check for $19K & cash for $10K, and deposit the check into the bank. You wait a week and deposit the <$10K in cash because you bought something, and the bank says "where'd you get that cash?!?" and they won't accept it. You could bring your W-2G and wave it around and say I won it last week, I just didn't deposit it with the check. Then it's up to the bank manager to disbelieve your story and your cash has a 50-50 chance of not being accepted by the bank. If they won't accept it, you'll have to find a way to get a newer W-2G or cage check so you can deposit your funds into the bank.

I'd just deposit checks I'm gonna declare as winnings to the IRS into the bank and keep my regular gambling cash (front money) out of the bank.

Quote: darkoz

So let's see. Can a slot accept $50,000?
link to original post

(heavily trimmed)
I believe common bill acceptors can stack 500 or 1000 bills or TITOs.

As you noted, many machines are configured to disable the bill acceptor if the credit meter exceeds a certain value.

Quote: ChumpChange

So you can win $29K, take a check for $19K & cash for $10K, and deposit the check into the bank. You wait a week and deposit the <$10K in cash because you bought something, and the bank says "where'd you get that cash?!?" and they won't accept it. You could bring your W-2G and wave it around and say I won it last week, I just didn't deposit it with the check. Then it's up to the bank manager to disbelieve your story and your cash has a 50-50 chance of not being accepted by the bank. If they won't accept it, you'll have to find a way to get a newer W-2G or cage check so you can deposit your funds into the bank.

I'd just deposit checks I'm gonna declare as winnings to the IRS into the bank and keep my regular gambling cash (front money) out of the bank.
link to original post

I try to not deposit more than $3000 at a time.

Generally I need cash on hand since I run a gambling empire. It really makes little sense to have too much funds in the bank. I have had to show up sometimes with fifty grand at a casino to do what I do.

So in and out depositing isn't too much of a big deal for me.

Reading an entry on Quora:
I went to the bank and make a deposit for $5,000 cash and the lady ask me for my SS# DL# and occupation, why is not too much money?
Answer:
Federal guidelines require banks to make a report to the government for any single cash deposit over $10,000. See, for instance, Bank Reporting Guidelines for Cash Deposits

However, banks can establish whatever standards they wish. Your cash deposit of $5,000 apparently triggered your bank’s policy on cash deposits. (They probably are concerned that your total deposit, which they were worried might exceed $10,000, was being split into non-reportable smaller amounts.)

You can ask your bank what its policies are regarding cash deposits. But what you ran into was a bank policy, not (directly) the regulation regarding cash deposits.
**********
Do banks get suspicious of cash deposits if it's over 50,000 USD?
Actually, banks do not really care, but, the IRS has made them responsible for collecting information from you, if you deposit CASH of more than $10,000. You will have to provide your tax ID info, and the source of the money, and sign the Form 8300. (This seems to be for business, trade, or self-employed)
******************
https://freemanlaw.com/form-8300-filing-requirement-associated-penalties/
Cash
For Form 8300 purposes, “cash” includes any U.S. coin and currency as well as foreign currency. That definition, however, is expanded in the Form 8300 context. “Cash” also includes a cashier’s check, bank draft, traveler’s check, or money order having a face amount of $10,000 or less if the instrument is used in a “Designated Reporting Transaction” or the person knows or has reason to know that the customer is attempting to avoid the filing of a Form 8300. A “Designated Reporting Transaction” is defined as any one of the following: a retail sale, a consumer durable, a collectible, or a travel or entertainment activity. Personal checks drawn on the writer’s account as well as a cashier’s check, bank draft, traveler’s check, or money order with a face value of more than $10,000 are not considered “cash” for Form 8300 purposes.

Exceptions to Form 8300
There are two important exceptions to the requirement to file a Form 8300. First, financial institutions are not required file a Form 8300 because such entities are required to file a Currency Transaction Report (“CTR”) under other provisions of the Bank Secrecy Act and its regulations. Second, transactions that occur entirely outside the United States and its territories do not require the filing of a Form 8300.

Also of note, governmental entities generally do not need to file Form 8300 except for one particular situation. A clerk of a criminal court must file a Form 8300 when cash bail of more than $10,000 is paid for an individual that was arrested for: any federal offense involving a controlled substance, racketeering, money laundering, and any substantially similar state offenses.

One major pitfall that frequently comes up in this context is “structuring.” It is a crime to “structure” one’s payments to avoid making a single exchange of cash of more than $10,000. Structuring occurs when a customer makes multiple payments in an attempt to not pay more than $10,000 at one time in order to avoid filing a Form 8300. If a person structures payments, they may be liable for both civil and criminal penalties, including up to 10 years imprisonment and severe monetary penalties.

Quote: ChumpChange

Reading an entry on Quora:
I went to the bank and make a deposit for $5,000 cash and the lady ask me for my SS# DL# and occupation, why is not too much money?
Answer:
Federal guidelines require banks to make a report to the government for any single cash deposit over $10,000. See, for instance, Bank Reporting Guidelines for Cash Deposits

However, banks can establish whatever standards they wish. Your cash deposit of $5,000 apparently triggered your bank’s policy on cash deposits. (They probably are concerned that your total deposit, which they were worried might exceed $10,000, was being split into non-reportable smaller amounts.)

You can ask your bank what its policies are regarding cash deposits. But what you ran into was a bank policy, not (directly) the regulation regarding cash deposits.
**********
Do banks get suspicious of cash deposits if it's over 50,000 USD?
Actually, banks do not really care, but, the IRS has made them responsible for collecting information from you, if you deposit CASH of more than $10,000. You will have to provide your tax ID info, and the source of the money, and sign the Form 8300. (This seems to be for business, trade, or self-employed)
******************
https://freemanlaw.com/form-8300-filing-requirement-associated-penalties/
Cash
For Form 8300 purposes, “cash” includes any U.S. coin and currency as well as foreign currency. That definition, however, is expanded in the Form 8300 context. “Cash” also includes a cashier’s check, bank draft, traveler’s check, or money order having a face amount of $10,000 or less if the instrument is used in a “Designated Reporting Transaction” or the person knows or has reason to know that the customer is attempting to avoid the filing of a Form 8300. A “Designated Reporting Transaction” is defined as any one of the following: a retail sale, a consumer durable, a collectible, or a travel or entertainment activity. Personal checks drawn on the writer’s account as well as a cashier’s check, bank draft, traveler’s check, or money order with a face value of more than $10,000 are not considered “cash” for Form 8300 purposes.

Exceptions to Form 8300
There are two important exceptions to the requirement to file a Form 8300. First, financial institutions are not required file a Form 8300 because such entities are required to file a Currency Transaction Report (“CTR”) under other provisions of the Bank Secrecy Act and its regulations. Second, transactions that occur entirely outside the United States and its territories do not require the filing of a Form 8300.

Also of note, governmental entities generally do not need to file Form 8300 except for one particular situation. A clerk of a criminal court must file a Form 8300 when cash bail of more than $10,000 is paid for an individual that was arrested for: any federal offense involving a controlled substance, racketeering, money laundering, and any substantially similar state offenses.

One major pitfall that frequently comes up in this context is “structuring.” It is a crime to “structure” one’s payments to avoid making a single exchange of cash of more than $10,000. Structuring occurs when a customer makes multiple payments in an attempt to not pay more than $10,000 at one time in order to avoid filing a Form 8300. If a person structures payments, they may be liable for both civil and criminal penalties, including up to 10 years imprisonment and severe monetary penalties.
link to original post

Damn, all those people making purchases on layaway guilty of structuring shame on them.

Quote: AxelWolf

You don't need checks to launder money(cash payments will do), you just need a way to make the money seem as if you obtained it legitimately. Getting large amounts of cash from casino wins and depositing it in the bank can sometimes be tricky, some banks don't like it and they will close your account if it's done consistently. (BOA is notorious for this).
link to original post

Assume he's talking about structuring which is in itself illegal and could result in a SAR.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

I am not sure what you are getting at, but the object of money laundering is to convert the cash to non-cash. Without reporting along the way.

Again, I don't know what comes out at the other end of your slot machine example, but if you feed $50K cash into a machine I'd think that there will be some cash reporting done, win or lose, just for the entry alone? If you are sitting at the tables and keep buying in, and they won't even let you get to the point of $10K unless you're fully identified, once your buy in passes $10K cash a CTR will be filed on you.

Anyway, it's not like a certain pile of cash is "dirty" and another is "clean." The object of these drug dealers and such is to get their bills into a form other than cash, without any reporting along the way. The bills themselves aren't reported stolen or traceable, the dealers just need to be able to spend them in legitimate commerce without getting reported.
link to original post

Isn't the object of money laundering to be able to spend the money you make illegally appear to come from a legal source?

In which case cash won from gambling at slots would be a valid means of proving income.

As for getting reported by putting cash into a slot I now get to say what you always do about high limit players. You don't have any experience at slots.

You can play rated or unrated. No one is watching your coin in unrated. And on top of that it's not unusual for churning that is to put $1300 cash in, lose it, win a $1300 jackpot and just put that back in. Very easily fifty grand coin in can come about with just a few thousand. So they don't follow that.

Anyway if you are suggesting it's only considered money laundering if the person turns it into non-cash, W2G jackpots can be requested to be paid in check. Usually if you win a very large amount they ask if you want that.
Which incidentally is exactly what you say a casino will not do. Pay by check anything except verified profits. It's done all the time with W2-G checks
link to original post

Yes. I still haven't gotten an answer from you as to how much that would cost.

How much do you have to run through there to get enough handpays?

You start with $50K. Sure, after one pass of $50K maybe you received 90% of it at the other end, but how much of that is handpay and how much is just the same ol' cash coming out the other end? I'd think that to get $50K of handpays you'd have to run a lot more than $50K through there.

If you run say $3000 through. At the other end comes out say 2700 in tickets. So what? What good is that, you just end up with $2700. in cash and no W-2G.

How often does that > 1200 jackpot even come up? If you figure at least 4% is disappearing with every pass of the cash, how many passes of that $50K do you have to run through before all of it is converted to handpays?

Unless you are very lucky that day you're not going to get W-2Gs that equal the $50K or more, so what is a more realistic % loss before you've converted the entire stack of $50K into nothing but W-2G backed checks?

1. How much would you lose, on average.
2. How much in W-2Gs would you get, on average, for running that $50K all the way through until you have nothing but a stack of checks.

I think your "method" would be for people who have no other way to launder and don't care if they sometimes lose every nickel of a given stack chasing those slot payout checks.

And eventually, if this is the only income they show (winning at slots) the government might question the source.

Quote: MDawg

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

I am not sure what you are getting at, but the object of money laundering is to convert the cash to non-cash. Without reporting along the way.

Again, I don't know what comes out at the other end of your slot machine example, but if you feed $50K cash into a machine I'd think that there will be some cash reporting done, win or lose, just for the entry alone? If you are sitting at the tables and keep buying in, and they won't even let you get to the point of $10K unless you're fully identified, once your buy in passes $10K cash a CTR will be filed on you.

Anyway, it's not like a certain pile of cash is "dirty" and another is "clean." The object of these drug dealers and such is to get their bills into a form other than cash, without any reporting along the way. The bills themselves aren't reported stolen or traceable, the dealers just need to be able to spend them in legitimate commerce without getting reported.
link to original post

Isn't the object of money laundering to be able to spend the money you make illegally appear to come from a legal source?

In which case cash won from gambling at slots would be a valid means of proving income.

As for getting reported by putting cash into a slot I now get to say what you always do about high limit players. You don't have any experience at slots.

You can play rated or unrated. No one is watching your coin in unrated. And on top of that it's not unusual for churning that is to put $1300 cash in, lose it, win a $1300 jackpot and just put that back in. Very easily fifty grand coin in can come about with just a few thousand. So they don't follow that.

Anyway if you are suggesting it's only considered money laundering if the person turns it into non-cash, W2G jackpots can be requested to be paid in check. Usually if you win a very large amount they ask if you want that.
Which incidentally is exactly what you say a casino will not do. Pay by check anything except verified profits. It's done all the time with W2-G checks
link to original post

Yes. I still haven't gotten an answer from you as to how much that would cost.

How much do you have to run through there to get enough handpays?

You start with $50K. Sure, after one pass of $50K maybe you received 90% of it at the other end, but how much of that is handpay and how much is just the same ol' cash coming out the other end? I'd think that to get $50K of handpays you'd have to run a lot more than $50K through there.

If you run say $3000 through. At the other end comes out say 2700 in tickets. So what? What good is that, you just end up with $2700. in cash and no W-2G.

How often does that > 1200 jackpot even come up? If you figure at least 4% is disappearing with every pass of the cash, how many passes of that $50K do you have to run through before all of it is converted to handpays?

Unless you are very lucky that day you're not going to get W-2Gs that equal the $50K or more, so what is a more realistic % loss before you've converted the entire stack of $50K into nothing but W-2G backed checks?

1. How much would you lose, on average.
2. How much in W-2Gs would you get, on average, for running that $50K all the way through until you have nothing but a stack of checks.

I think your "method" would be for people who have no other way to launder and don't care if they sometimes lose every nickel of a given stack chasing those slot payout checks.

And eventually, if this is the only income they show (winning at slots) the government might question the source.
link to original post

Well I will start with the easy part.

I make only income from gambling and only report gambling as I have for quite a few years and the IRS is quite happy and not complaining. Not to mention that W2-G is literally proof hard-core that I won in a casino so what are they going to say? We want proof you didn't win it by getting it somewhere else? Makes no sense.

I also should point out that IRS rules are that criminal enterprises are taxable and reportable income. I don't believe drug dealers report their income as from drug sales but theoretically if they did that would be within the law and rules of the IRS. I suppose it's on them to report the claims to the authorities.

The other question is trickier. It's gambling. I can only give theoretical return. However I don't believe you are thinking it through fully. I said the launderer would play high denomination Max bets. $200 or even $500 per spin.

To understand the probability of triggering a $1200 or more jackpot compare an average win on a penny machine.

Wager $5. A win of three times your bet is $15. That happens quite often. In fact a bonus round on a $5 wager can return $500 or even $800 depending on the game. A game like Golden Egypt a $6 wager has a max return of $1800. I have gotten that about six times in four years. On average a nice bonus in golden Egypt returns $400-600 for a $6 bet. And getting two to three wild columns which happens quite often can return $40-300 with $60-90 being about average.

So how difficult would it be to trigger W2-G jackpots at a slot? Well wager $500 instead of just $5 and that same exact win with the same exact symbols that got $15 would return $1500. Bam, W2-G.

That same $6 spin that returns on average $60-90 if betting $600 a spin will return $6000-9000.

So triggering jackpots isn't difficult like you are making it out to be.

In fact my experience playing predominantly high limit slots the last five plus years is that you are smart to bring along a novel to read. I am more often waiting to get paid jackpots than actually gambling. I have even had situations where I switched machines to continue playing while waiting for my jackpot and triggered a second and even third jackpot before the attendant even returned to pay the first one.

Quote: MDawg

Quote: DRich

Quote: MDawg

I've also figured out exactly which casino cages are most vulnerable to robberies, and shortly after we (my wife and I) discussed how easy it would be to hit a certain cage, it was hit, exactly the way we figured it could be. And as far as I know, the robber never got caught.

Do you suspect your wife?
link to original post

Well the robber was described as male....
link to original post

That doesn't answer the question unless I infer that you are heterosexual.

I assume that you are reporting whatever you are making at your scheme, plus any W-2Gs. I assume your crew is doing the same. That's something - it shows income that validates whatever you are sticking in the machines.

If some person had nothing but W-2Gs and no other income reported that would be flagged, obviously. The IRS assumes that slots players are losers, so they must be coming up with money to feed those machines.

As far as the rest, HOW MUCH are you going to lose, on average sticking $500. a spin into the machine. That's 100 spins, $50,000. And how many times are you going to get the 1200 or higher payouts, because that would be all you care about here. Obviously you'd have to keep pushing and pushing until you end up with nothing but handpays and the entire $50K is gone otherwise.

Quote: darkoz

Damn, all those people making purchases on layaway guilty of structuring shame on them.

The BSA cash reporting policies are based on a 24 hour period of transactions.

The week I moved to Las Vegas, I opened a commercial checking account with Wells Fargo. Between gambling, auctions and comic shows I made dozens of deposits. Some would be $5K, some would be 8K, some would be 12K. No one ever asked me where the cash came from. They filled out the CRT or whatever it's called, when needed. I mostly get CC payments, but occasionally deposit more than 10K in cash.

Quote: MDawg

I assume that you are reporting whatever you are making at your scheme, plus any W-2Gs. I assume your crew is doing the same. That's something - it shows income that validates whatever you are sticking in the machines.

If some person had nothing but W-2Gs and no other income reported that would be flagged, obviously. The IRS assumes that slots players are losers, so they must be coming up with money to feed those machines.

As far as the rest, HOW MUCH are you going to lose, on average sticking $500. a spin into the machine. That's 100 spins, $50,000. And how many times are you going to get the 1200 or higher payouts, because that would be all you care about here. Obviously you'd have to keep pushing and pushing until you end up with nothing but handpays and the entire $50K is gone otherwise.
link to original post

The IRS most definitely doesn't assume you lose overall. All they care about is getting their cut from W2-G that are issued.

Axel has already answered your question about how much will be lost. There are games to be played that can be positive ev for the player such as must hits.

You keep asking for an exact amount knowing full well it's gambling. You yourself report anywhere from -$50,000 to +$80,000 on various sessions at Baccarat. You know very well it's full of swings.

But as far as ev goes a player can even be playing positive.

This whole line of questioning just sounds like you don't want to admit defeat on a subject you admit you know nothing about.

I have generated over $50,000 in W-2Gs comprised of approximately 15-20 individual ones in a single day and I guarantee you that I was never down anywhere near fifty grand while doing so. Yes, it's volatile but I remember even being up 8 or ten grand a few times during those sessions. Both of those occasions I was chasing a $16,000 must hit and quit when I finally hit it.

You can't really say, unless you file nothing but W-2Gs on your tax return and show no other income. Do that for a few years, don't report your other income, and let us know how it turns out.

Because that is essentially what a drug dealer would have to do, given your scheme, unless he had some other source of income.

I am sure that some people do what you suggest, rinse cash through slots to get handpay checks, but I assume that's for low end types who can't come up with any other way.

Quote: billryan

The week I moved to Las Vegas, I opened a commercial checking account with Wells Fargo. Between gambling, auctions and comic shows I made dozens of deposits. Some would be $5K, some would be 8K, some would be 12K. No one ever asked me where the cash came from. They filled out the CRT or whatever it's called, when needed. I mostly get CC payments, but occasionally deposit more than 10K in cash.
link to original post

To prove structuring they have to prove intent to avoid reporting. If a person has a business and just sticks whatever into the account and it just happens to be $9900. every day, that is not structuring, but what are the odds? At the same time though, if the tax returns correlate with all the deposits, then that probably negates intent because the person is not trying to hide anything.

Lots of deposits just under $10,000. and not reporting the income would probably equal structuring.

Quote: MDawg

Quote: billryan

The week I moved to Las Vegas, I opened a commercial checking account with Wells Fargo. Between gambling, auctions and comic shows I made dozens of deposits. Some would be $5K, some would be 8K, some would be 12K. No one ever asked me where the cash came from. They filled out the CRT or whatever it's called, when needed. I mostly get CC payments, but occasionally deposit more than 10K in cash.
link to original post

To prove structuring they have to prove intent to avoid reporting. If a person has a business and just sticks whatever into the account and it just happens to be $9900. every day, that is not structuring, but what are the odds? At the same time though, if the tax returns correlate with all the deposits, then that probably negates intent because the person is not trying to hide anything.

Lots of deposits just under $10,000. and not reporting the income would probably equal structuring.
link to original post

I don't think Wells Fargo has any idea what my tax returns look like.

Quote: MDawg

You can't really say, unless you file nothing but W-2Gs on your tax return and show no other income. Do that for a few years, don't report your other income, and let us know how it turns out.

Because that is essentially what a drug dealer would have to do, given your scheme, unless he had some other source of income.

I am sure that some people do what you suggest, rinse cash through slots to get handpay checks, but I assume that's for low end types who can't come up with any other way.
link to original post

I do not describe in any way how I generate profit from gambling using players cards to the IRS (you keep using the word scheme lol because you don't like the legal means I use to win money).

So I have been filing tax returns that not only have W2-G listing but simply other profit listed as cash income from gambling and have no issues with the IRS.

They are interested in getting their cut. That's all. Any suggestions otherwise is just your imagination and in fact your statement "you can't really say" applies more to you than me.

Have you been filing the hundreds of thousands you claim won at Baccarat and Blackjack? Has the IRS questioned you yet why you aren't losing? By your own statements on this page either you don't win like you claim or you don't report your proper income or you really know the IRS doesn't really believe everyone has to be losing

Which is it?

It's worth mentioning that a casino may honor a check request, as in my example in the OP the first time, but fill out a Suspicious Activity Report. If the same player does it again, they will probably note the SAR in his file and say "no" the second time.

Not quite the same situation, but I once had to cash in a lot of discontinued yellow ($1000) chips at a particular Vegas casino. I did it one or two at a time, about once a week. This worked until about the fourth time when they mentioned I had no history of play to keep producing all these old yellow chips and they would no longer cash them from me. They must have been making entries in my file about it.

When they refused me, I laid low for a little while and then easily passed them through the sports book.

My personal experience was that I sat with 5k cash and by the end of the stay had about 50k.

I had no previous record with Caesar’s but played a lot that trip. I was there for about a month and actually made it to SevenStar.

I asked what my options were for getting the money out. I was denied a bank transfer since I didn’t wire in, I was offered a check for only verified winnings.

Verified winnings amounted to a little less than the 45k I expected - must have been some random sessions throughout the trip.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

You can't really say, unless you file nothing but W-2Gs on your tax return and show no other income. Do that for a few years, don't report your other income, and let us know how it turns out.

Because that is essentially what a drug dealer would have to do, given your scheme, unless he had some other source of income.

I am sure that some people do what you suggest, rinse cash through slots to get handpay checks, but I assume that's for low end types who can't come up with any other way.
link to original post

I do not describe in any way how I generate profit from gambling using players cards to the IRS (you keep using the word scheme lol because you don't like the legal means I use to win money).

So I have been filing tax returns that not only have W2-G listing but simply other profit listed as cash income from gambling and have no issues with the IRS.

They are interested in getting their cut. That's all. Any suggestions otherwise is just your imagination and in fact your statement "you can't really say" applies more to you than me.

Have you been filing the hundreds of thousands you claim won at Baccarat and Blackjack? Has the IRS questioned you yet why you aren't losing? By your own statements on this page either you don't win like you claim or you don't report your proper income or you really know the IRS doesn't really believe everyone has to be losing

Which is it?
link to original post

How do you file and pay taxes on someone else's W2-G, and why are you playing games that involve someone getting a w2 while using someone else's card?

There have been multiple times, at multiple different casinos, where I brought chips to the cashier and turned them into a check without ever playing any table games. I could do it tomorrow for $15k and in a few weeks for $55k or more. There was no money laundering, though I'm sure people here could theorize ways a casino check could turn dirty money into clean money.

Just saw a video last night of Mr. Handpay playing Black Jack and he had a $15K buy-in, and as he was playing he was losing so bad he bought in for another $20K, so a total of a $35K buy-in. He started progressing his bets on a win on two spot BJ and went on a bit of a winning streak, or should I say a semi-pressing streak and ran all the purples out of the dealer's tray at one point. The new dealer started giving him $1,000 chips when she could. He seemed to be adding $500 to each spot after a win, but he's very random and I couldn't really make sense of what he was doing. But eventually he colored up $40K in $1,000 chips, $19,500 in $500 chips, and another $8,000 or so in $100 chips. So he's got about 160 chips there for a $67.5K cash-out. That's where the video ends. Does he get a couple racks to put his chips in and take it to the cage to get his cash back? If he wanted a check, will the cashier call the pit and ask about his buy-in and say to Mr. Handpay "Sir, I can only give you a check for $32,500, the rest you'll have to take in cash or credit."? I think that call to the pit would be required if he wanted a check, but there was a dealer change so the dealer may not know what his buy-in was unless it was on the pit computer kiosk and she checked it. How long will his buy-in remain on the pit computer? Will he have to go to the cage immediately if he wants a check because the pit computer will be wiped when the next player sits down in his seat?

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

You can't really say, unless you file nothing but W-2Gs on your tax return and show no other income. Do that for a few years, don't report your other income, and let us know how it turns out.

Because that is essentially what a drug dealer would have to do, given your scheme, unless he had some other source of income.

I am sure that some people do what you suggest, rinse cash through slots to get handpay checks, but I assume that's for low end types who can't come up with any other way.
link to original post

I do not describe in any way how I generate profit from gambling using players cards to the IRS (you keep using the word scheme lol because you don't like the legal means I use to win money).

So I have been filing tax returns that not only have W2-G listing but simply other profit listed as cash income from gambling and have no issues with the IRS.

They are interested in getting their cut. That's all. Any suggestions otherwise is just your imagination and in fact your statement "you can't really say" applies more to you than me.

Have you been filing the hundreds of thousands you claim won at Baccarat and Blackjack? Has the IRS questioned you yet why you aren't losing? By your own statements on this page either you don't win like you claim or you don't report your proper income or you really know the IRS doesn't really believe everyone has to be losing

Which is it?
link to original post

How do you file and pay taxes on someone else's W2-G, and why are you playing games that involve someone getting a w2 while using someone else's card?
link to original post

Wow how did this come up?

Well firstly how do I file and pay taxes on someone else's W2-G?

I don't. I never claimed that. I win a jackpot, show the attendant MY ID, give them MY SS and get paid in MY name.

Secondly why am I playing games that involve someone getting a w2g while using someone else's card?

From your question, the answer is I don't. When I use someone else's players card and win a W2-G the attendant comes to the slot and takes MY ID and MY SS and pays me and hands me a W2-G in MY name.

Why would someone not even present in the casino receive a W2-G on a jackpot? Regardless of whether his players card shows a jackpot win, the W2-G is for me!

Quote: billryan

The week I moved to Las Vegas, I opened a commercial checking account with Wells Fargo. Between gambling, auctions and comic shows I made dozens of deposits. Some would be $5K, some would be 8K, some would be 12K. No one ever asked me where the cash came from. They filled out the CRT or whatever it's called, when needed. I mostly get CC payments, but occasionally deposit more than 10K in cash.
link to original post

Wells Fargo seems to be less inclined to give you a hassle. I believe they look at a number of factors, including banking history, age, and employment.

If you are some young guy without a normal job doing multiple large transactions you might get your account shut down.

Quote: TomG

There have been multiple times, at multiple different casinos, where I brought chips to the cashier and turned them into a check without ever playing any table games. I could do it tomorrow for $15k and in a few weeks for $55k or more. There was no money laundering, though I'm sure people here could theorize ways a casino check could turn dirty money into clean money.
link to original post

Go get your free 25k from Mike and MDawg.

Quote: MDawg

Yes. I still haven't gotten an answer from you as to how much that would cost.

How much do you have to run through there to get enough handpays?

As I pointed out, It depends on the situation. The cost depends on the HA/RTP of whatever you are playing. High-end would cost you about 20% Low End, roughly .5%, but that would probably turn into a +EV situation if done correctly.

If done correctly you could do it while maintaining +EV and making money.

The number of spins/plays depends on what machines you choose to play. It could be anywhere from 0 spins/plays to a bunch. 1 spin is easily done.

0 spins Axel, C'mom on man, that's impossible. It's rare, but not impossible!
Obviously, something like that when done multiple times would get you noticed and the situation changed.

are Mike and MDawg really offering $25k to anyone who can get a casino check for chips without playing table games? I would definitely be down for that.

Quote: TomG

are Mike and MDawg really offering $25k to anyone who can get a casino check for chips without playing table games? I would definitely be down for that.
link to original post

The offer is real...until suddenly a bunch of caveats are thrown in and it's not real.

And when a teammate gets a W2?

Quote: TomG

are Mike and MDawg really offering $25k to anyone who can get a casino check for chips without playing table games? I would definitely be down for that.
link to original post

Mike probably won't take part in the bet, he just assumed MDawg was correct.

I didn't bother even reading all of Mdawg's challenge and wasn't attempting any negotiations/stipulations until we both had good faith money on deposit.

Mike contact me regarding this. I said there was no point in discussing the terms because I have been through this before and It's a waste of time to negotiate terms because goalposts get moved.

I told Mike he could tell MDawg that I will Bring 25k to him first ASAP, as so long as MDawg puts up 25k on a no-penalty deposit/escrow for 10 days while we negotiate terms.

I haven't heard back.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: TomG

are Mike and MDawg really offering $25k to anyone who can get a casino check for chips without playing table games? I would definitely be down for that.
link to original post

The offer is real...until suddenly a bunch of caveats are thrown in and it's not real.
link to original post

In a fishing attempt to gather information on how you will do it so more stipulations can be added, thus rendering it impossible.

IE. Axel, you have to tell the cage you are here just to get a check and launder money.

Quote: TomG

There have been multiple times, at multiple different casinos, where I brought chips to the cashier and turned them into a check without ever playing any table games. I could do it tomorrow for $15k and in a few weeks for $55k or more. There was no money laundering, though I'm sure people here could theorize ways a casino check could turn dirty money into clean money.
link to original post

But MDawg says this is not possible?

You (TomG) are saying you presented chips to a casino cage, did not have verified winnings, and received a check from the casino?

AND could do it tomorrow? I think MDawg would bet you can’t? Am I interpreting that correctly, MDawg?

Edit. Sounds like TomG will take MDawg up on the challenge, but I highly doubt MDawg will accept.

Quote: billryan

And when a teammate gets a W2?
link to original post

5754 forms, or they can choose to take it themselves and deal with it.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: TomG

are Mike and MDawg really offering $25k to anyone who can get a casino check for chips without playing table games? I would definitely be down for that.
link to original post

The offer is real...until suddenly a bunch of caveats are thrown in and it's not real.
link to original post

In a fishing attempt to gather information on how you will do it so more stipulations can be added, thus rendering it impossible.

IE. Axel, you have to tell the cage you are here just to get a check and launder money.
link to original post

LOL! Thats why I don't even bother with the challenges. It goes like this, lets hash out the details so I can find out exactly
how your going to win and make stipulations to prevent you.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: TomG

There have been multiple times, at multiple different casinos, where I brought chips to the cashier and turned them into a check without ever playing any table games. I could do it tomorrow for $15k and in a few weeks for $55k or more. There was no money laundering, though I'm sure people here could theorize ways a casino check could turn dirty money into clean money.
link to original post

But MDawg says this is not possible?

You (TomG) are saying you presented chips to a casino cage, did not have verified winnings, and received a check from the casino?

AND could do it tomorrow? I think MDawg would bet you can’t? Am I interpreting that correctly, MDawg?

Edit. Sounds like TomG will take MDawg up on the challenge, but I highly doubt MDawg will accept.
link to original post

I believe the caveat was you had to buy in for cash, win some amount, then cash out the full amount in a check to you from the casino.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: TomG

There have been multiple times, at multiple different casinos, where I brought chips to the cashier and turned them into a check without ever playing any table games. I could do it tomorrow for $15k and in a few weeks for $55k or more. There was no money laundering, though I'm sure people here could theorize ways a casino check could turn dirty money into clean money.
link to original post

But MDawg says this is not possible?

You (TomG) are saying you presented chips to a casino cage, did not have verified winnings, and received a check from the casino?

AND could do it tomorrow? I think MDawg would bet you can’t? Am I interpreting that correctly, MDawg?
link to original post

MDawg will come up with some BS about how the offer was only good to me and or how the offer has expired. MDawg knew that I wouldn't make a 25k bet without thinking about it and he knows I won't accept any money challenges from him until the money is in escrow/on deposit, I have said that and made it clear a few times.
I believe it was nothing more than an empty position-bolstering bluff.

He wanted to shut me down from pointing out that getting a check from a casino is absolutely meaningless, and that it doesn't show you are winning. He believes posting a picture of a check supports the fact that he's beating table games at high limits.

Quote: rainman

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: TomG

are Mike and MDawg really offering $25k to anyone who can get a casino check for chips without playing table games? I would definitely be down for that.
link to original post

The offer is real...until suddenly a bunch of caveats are thrown in and it's not real.
link to original post

In a fishing attempt to gather information on how you will do it so more stipulations can be added, thus rendering it impossible.

IE. Axel, you have to tell the cage you are here just to get a check and launder money.
link to original post

LOL! Thats why I don't even bother with the challenges. It goes like this, lets hash out the details so I can find out exactly
how your going to win and make stipulations to prevent you.
link to original post

Yeah, with some people that's exactly how it goes. You get to know who is willing to put up a legitimate challenge and who isn't.


During MDawg's challenge to me that I couldn't recreate a fake high roller persona to rival his. At some point, he said it couldn't be real, and at some point, he said it couldn't be faked. 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

Quote: SOOPOO

You (TomG) are saying you presented chips to a casino cage, did not have verified winnings, and received a check from the casino?

I cannot comment on the casino side if they verify any winnings or not. I can only say there was no money laundering taking place. For me personally, a casino check wouldn't even help with money laundering. If I had dirty money in that range and a casino check was enough to make it clean, I could just deposit cash into a bank account with the same result. But I understand some people might have different situations. I could explain it to Mike and he would be like "yeah that makes perfect sense". It's mostly a matter of not wanting to carry that much extra cash -- except for one time it was because of pettiness.

Quote: billryan

And when a teammate gets a W2?
link to original post

They are instructed to ask for taxes to be deducted from the jackpot payout so their taxes are paid up front.

The balance of the money belongs to me as they are gambling with my cash. If it's an unusually high amount I break off a piece for them as a bonus.

Of course they feel motivated to report their taxes at the end of the year because they usually have a refund due as they paid in advance for their jackpots.

However what they do as far as personal tax reporting is on them. I know some file. And some don't. That's their business.

Quote: billryan

Quote: MDawg

Quote: billryan

The week I moved to Las Vegas, I opened a commercial checking account with Wells Fargo. Between gambling, auctions and comic shows I made dozens of deposits. Some would be $5K, some would be 8K, some would be 12K. No one ever asked me where the cash came from. They filled out the CRT or whatever it's called, when needed. I mostly get CC payments, but occasionally deposit more than 10K in cash.
link to original post

To prove structuring they have to prove intent to avoid reporting. If a person has a business and just sticks whatever into the account and it just happens to be $9900. every day, that is not structuring, but what are the odds? At the same time though, if the tax returns correlate with all the deposits, then that probably negates intent because the person is not trying to hide anything.

Lots of deposits just under $10,000. and not reporting the income would probably equal structuring.
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I don't think Wells Fargo has any idea what my tax returns look like.
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If your bank doesn't like the way you're conducting business, they might close your accounts. This might be because of too many suspicious cash deposits. They'll do their own independent analysis based on what they have in front of them, including what they know about you and your businesses.

But the government is notified whenever you deposit over 10K cash with a CTR, or with SARs if the Bank issues any. The government does have access to your filed tax returns. There might be two different departments that might decide to look into you if they see too many CTRs or SARs, one might be FinCEN, the other might be the IRS. In either case if they look at what they know about you including your tax returns and all of that fits in with your deposit amounts, then they'd just forget about it and do nothing. If there was some kind of discrepancy between someone making large deposits, cash or otherwise, and your financial profile of which they are aware, you might hear from them in some way, including via an audit.

Did you know all that, and just came with a "I don't think Wells Fargo has any idea what my tax returns look like" anyway, or it didn't occur to you who gets those CTRs and SARs, assuming any were filed?

And herein is why a true money launderer would want to deal with checks into his bank accounts not cash. No cash - no chance of even a SAR. No reporting. Left with a relatively free hand to arrange his own version of events!

Quote: Wizard

It's worth mentioning that a casino may honor a check request, as in my example in the OP the first time, but fill out a Suspicious Activity Report. If the same player does it again, they will probably note the SAR in his file and say "no" the second time.

Interesting thought, but their hands are tied as to what they may and may not do as far as issuing checks for chips. If they can do it at all, they will. If the customer has gotten to the point that a SAR needs to be filed against him for cashing chips, I doubt he's getting a check.

Quote: Wizard

Not quite the same situation, but I once had to cash in a lot of discontinued yellow ($1000) chips at a particular Vegas casino. I did it one or two at a time, about once a week. This worked until about the fourth time when they mentioned I had no history of play to keep producing all these old yellow chips and they would no longer cash them from me. They must have been making entries in my file about it.

When they refused me, I laid low for a little while and then easily passed them through the sports book.
link to original post

In that situation you're merely trying to cash chips for cash. It has to do with whether they may tie you to the chips at all. They just don't want to cash chips for anyone except the one who owns them, obtained them legitimately, is all.

Quote: TomG

There have been multiple times, at multiple different casinos, where I brought chips to the cashier and turned them into a check without ever playing any table games. I could do it tomorrow for $15k and in a few weeks for $55k or more. There was no money laundering, though I'm sure people here could theorize ways a casino check could turn dirty money into clean money.
link to original post

Is there something missing from this story?

Are you saying that you

1. Bought chips for cash at a table game or directly at the cage,
2. Then, with no play or win history on your player account, turned right around and cashed those same chips at the cage
3. And received a check for all of them?
4. Such that you could do it again, exactly as noted 1 – 3, for $15,000. in one shot, and again $55,000 cash in one shot, converting $55,000 cash to a single cage check?

If so, where were these multiple casinos. Vegas? because I know your other screen name used to imply that you were in Vegas. And how long ago did you do this, and for howwwww much?

If 1 - 3 don't apply, then whatever you are talking about might be irrelevant to the subject matter at hand and might concern who knows what.

This is the Cash for Check Wager that I put up available for anyone to take up as late as Monday night, which AxelWolf did not take up.

I assume he had some irrelevant idea to bypass the challenge, such as mailing in a winning sports ticket and getting a check for it, which - anyway, even there he would have had to WIN to get the check, 🤯 and that has nothing to do with table games.

When I get a check, as a credit line, tables games only player, it means only one thing - that I won!

Quote: MDawg

get a check, as a credit line, tables games only player, it means only one thing - that I won!

We haven't a clue how you got that check or why. It's your word saying so. We have seen the many suspicious claims you have made, so excuse me for not just taking your word for it.

It absolutely proves nothing about you winning.

Had you actually put up money on deposit and wagered 25k with me, I would've gotten multiple checks in multiple different ways from multiple casinos just to have covered all my bases.

You can get a check from a casino while gambling and still have lost on that/those hands.

If anything you have to say on this subject meant something to me, I'd say so.

I'm the Pope of Las Vegas. It's like you're trying to tell the Pope how things work at the Vegas Vatican. I already know.

Quote: MDawg

If anything you have to say on this subject meant something to me, I'd say so.

I'm the Pope of Las Vegas. It's like you're trying to tell the Pope how things work at the Vegas Vatican. I already know.
link to original post

Didn't the Pope say he knew nothing about the priests sex scandals?

Quote: MDawg

If anything you have to say on this subject meant something to me, I'd say so.

I'm the Pope of Las Vegas. It's like you're trying to tell the Pope how things work at the Vegas Vatican. I already know.
link to original post

It makes total sense you would use the Pope/Vatican as a comparison.

This reminds me of all the scandals of inconsistencies related to the the Popes and the Vatican.

Quote: MDawg

This is the Cash for Check Wager that I put up available for anyone to take up as late as Monday night, which AxelWolf did not take up.

I assume he had some irrelevant idea to bypass the challenge, such as mailing in a winning sports ticket and getting a check for it, which - anyway, even there he would have had to WIN to get the check, 🤯 and that has nothing to do with table games.

When I get a check, as a credit line, tables games only player, it means only one thing - that I won!
link to original post

I don't have a dog in this fight, but am willing to defer to MDawg's expertise, unless more credible information is forthcoming from someone else to refute his claims, That being said, I have a question: If someone plays on credit, and is down by the end of the night, how long do they have settle up, pay and get back to even?

I think it's 30 days then they can make a withdrawal from your bank account. If that's too low, then there will be other actions.