Laundering cash to check at table games.

Let's say a player presents $50,000 in cash, plays table games for a few hours and wins $5,000. He presents the $55,000 in chips at the cage and asks for a check. What would happen? Please submit your answer in the poll (multiple votes allowed).

There is a lot of discussion already about this in the Mdawg thread, starting about here. I would split off that discussion, but it is too intertwined with other topics and it's hard to split off long threads anyway.

I will say the general Title 31 regulations say casinos are supposed to guard against players turning cash into cage checks. In general, I think they do a good job enforcing this, but it isn't absolute. To known good players, I think they will be certainly consider the value of the player if he asks for a check. It is not unreasonable for a player to not want to lug around large amounts of cash.

This topic is getting out of my area, so I welcome discussion, including policies in sports and slots too.

Several things would happen.

When the 50K was presented at the table, assuming the pit boss didn't already know who the player was, would ask for the player's player card or ID. He'd then look to make sure that the player has his identifying information including social security number or foreign passport and identification on record. The pit screen would tell him that player was okayed for submitting over 10K in cash.

If not, the pit boss would ask for the player's ID or passport, and enter all that information, and wait for the system to notify him that the player is fully identified, and good to go for a $10K or higher cash transaction. If not, he'd send him to the cage to submit what else needs to be submitted.

But even after all that, the pit would suggest that the player just go to the cage to have the money counted quickly in their Scarface machines, and converted to chips at the cage, or simply deposited as front money. Depending on the casino, the cage will convert a certain amount of cash to chips, but there is a limit. It would have to be a very high end casino to be willing to hand over 50K in chips at the cage (there is usually a limit to how much in chips the cage will hand over), but any casino will accept the $50K in cash on deposit as front money as long as the player is fully identified.

In either case, whether the cash is accepted and counted out at the table (they will do it in stacks of $2500. at a time and then stuff it all into the cash drop box), or accepted at the cage, a CTR will be filed on that player reflecting $50K cash received (incoming). The player will not be told or know that the CTR is filed, or get a copy of anything - CTRs are simply transactional reports made by the financial entity, in this case the casino, to FinCEN for any cash instrument transaction in or out for $10K or more.

Then the player would play, as described, and win the $5000. Colors up. Now he walks from the table with 55K in chips. Let's assume that the pit boss now notes the player 's account as having won the $5000.

At the cage, if he wanted to cash all 55K in chips out and walk, and wanted a check for as much as possible, he would get $50,000. cash and a $5000. check payable to his name, based on the $5K verified win on his account. The casino cannot issue a check for more than the verified win - to issue a check for more would be money laundering. Known player or not he's not getting a check for more than the verified win.


Otherwise, why even bother with playing? Just go to the table, get $50K in chips for cash and go straight to the cage ask for a $50K check. Or eliminate the table entirely, go straight to the cage present $50K cash and ask for a check.

Remember, we are not talking about going to the bank, depositing $50K and then writing a check on your own account against it, or getting a cashier's check for $50K for it, (and 2/3 of those transactions will result in a CTR incidentally), - because at your own bank the check issued is issued in your name as the issuer/payor, which is legal. At the casino we are talking about ending up with a check issued by a third party business as the payor. Getting a third party business to rinse your money like that is illegal. Ask Scarface.

If I got on one of MDawg's Reserved tables (that has a $30K max bet or higher) with a $50K buy-in (from front money since my credit may not exist), and won to $550K, I'd have a $500K profit and get a $500K check, and the rest of the $50K buy-in would go back into the front money account. If I want that front money back, it'd probably get wired to my bank account. I think I'd rather they wire the $500K to my bank account so I can win another $500K the next day with the $50K front money. Maybe just add the $500K to my front money and I can go to the higher limit rooms MDawg never talks about where bets can go way over $30K. I think you need a front money line of 20X your maximum bet. So If I have $1 million in front money I could bet up to $50K. Anyway, if I get to $550K, I'll have 11 sessions of $50K buy-ins left. I could play for another week on that before going broke.

I suppose if I wanted to open front money accounts at other casinos, I could cash in $50K of chips at a time and ask for a check and take that check to another casino and open a front money account there with the check, but I'm not sure if other casinos will take another casinos checks (no 3rd party checks).

But in a world where surveillance can 86 somebody with no notice, I don't know how somebody would get their money back if they got 86'ed.

Quote: ChumpChange

If I got on one of MDawg's Reserved tables (that has a $30K max bet or higher) with a $50K buy-in (from front money since my credit may not exist), and won to $550K, I'd have a $500K profit and get a $500K check, and the rest of the $50K buy-in would go back into the front money account. If I want that front money back, it'd probably get wired to my bank account. I think I'd rather they wire the $500K to my bank account so I can win another $500K the next day with the $50K front money. Maybe just add the $500K to my front money and I can go to the higher limit rooms MDawg never talks about where bets can go way over $30K. I think you need a front money line of 20X your maximum bet. So If I have $1 million in front money I could bet up to $50K. Anyway, if I get to $550K, I'll have 11 sessions of $50K buy-ins left. I could play for another week on that before going broke.

I suppose if I wanted to open front money accounts at other casinos, I could cash in $50K of chips at a time and ask for a check and take that check to another casino and open a front money account there with the check, but I'm not sure if other casinos will take other casinos checks (no 3rd party checks).
link to original post

You'd get back that $50K front money in the same or similar format to the way it came in. If cash, you could get it back in cash only. If wired in, you could get it back wired or as a check. If deposited as cashier's check or personal check, you could get it back as check or wired.

Compliance has become a real b*itch - nowadays if a player (I don't do this, I am a credit only player, but I know this is the way it works) deposits a cashier's check with the casino as front money, they will first verify with the bank then hold the actual cashier's check until the end of the trip and then work it all out, maybe just hand you back your own cashier's check if you end up winning or not losing.

This may have changed (I have not tried it lately), but casinos did used to accept another casino's check payable to YOU - just sign it over, they verify it, and you're good to go.

Why can’t he make it look like he lost $50k by gradually ratholing chips at various tables, then on a subsequent trip make it seem like he won $50k by doing the opposite, then get a check for his $50k “win”. And get comped in the process

Quote: Ace2

Why can’t he make it look like he lost $50k by gradually ratholing chips at various tables, then on a subsequent trip make it seem like he won $50k by doing the opposite, then get a check for his $50k “win”. And get comped in the process
link to original post

I address that here:

Quote: MDawg

Quote: ChumpChange

That TV show Vegas with James Caan a couple decades ago seemed to emphasize busting loitering money launderers in their casino. Some mob-looking guy gets $5K in chips, plays for 20 minutes, then cashes out.
link to original post

Here's one way someone could get busted.

AWolf and PGrinder go into the same casino, careful not to be seen together. Both buy 9K of chips at the tables. They don't play much, or at all, preserve the whole 9K, walk off.

Outside the casino PGrinder hands AWolf his chips. The Wolf goes back inside and to a table, plays, and in a reverse SooPoo move, introduces, gradually all of the 9K in chips from PGrinder to the table to combine with his own 9K in chips until he has 18K in front of him, or more, if he actually has won anything at the table. When he walks, he makes sure that the pit boss notes that he has over 18K in chips. The pit boss, puzzled because he never noted the Wolf winning much, counts his rack and realizes that it isn't missing anything - there isn't 9K missing. He's reluctant to notate a 9K win under such circumstances, and it's a big enough deal that he calls surveillance to try to figure out how someone walked with +9K when his rack shows nothing missing.

Meantime the Wolf has headed to the cage, to get his 9K cash and 9K check, and go see MDawg and collect his 25K in winnings for their Wager. The cage doesn't see any record of a win, and can't issue a check. Eventually the casino determines that Wolf was just trying to show a win where there was none.

With luck, nothing more happens, other than the cage refuses to issue Wolf any more than face value cash for his chips.

More likely, the cage refuses to cash any more than 9K of Wolf's chips at all, until he accounts for where he got the other 9K.

With bad luck, Wolf gets busted for attempted money laundering.

And in all cases, he owes me $25K.

It's a hypothetical, and I am not saying that Wolf or PGrinder would try anything like that. You may substitute anyone's name or no one's name in there for those two. But it is illustrated to demonstrate that casinos just won't allow cash to be converted to check.

And to illustrate that it is money laundering for a casino to convert anyone's cash to check - or that anyone who does manage to get a casino to convert his cash to check, is guilty of money laundering. Casinos, especially in recent times, just don't want that to happen, and have taken great measures to prevent it.
link to original post

Someone trying to pull that would not get away with it for $9K, let alone $50K. For $50K he'd probably wind up in jail just for trying it, because for that amount it would show pretty clear intent to money launder.

PLUS in your scenario, he's made $50K in chips "disappear" the first trip. $50K bought, $50K lost. Now, according to your scheme, he has nothing left. Assuming he gets away with that, how does he explain that he suddenly has $50K in chips the second trip? He wouldn't be able to cash them at all the second trip as there would be no record of where they came from in the first place.

IN FACT, if you show up at the table with a lot of chips, the first thing the pit boss does is access your player account to make sure there is a record of your having them. Otherwise, you can't even play - and I have seen that happen many times to players who show up especially with even one large denomination chip they claim belong to their friends.

Quote: Ace2

Why can’t he make it look like he lost $50k by gradually ratholing chips at various tables, then on a subsequent trip make it seem like he won $50k by doing the opposite, then get a check for his $50k “win”. And get comped in the process
link to original post

Because any chip of $500 or over has RFID in them and the cage may request the pit to verify the player was playing there and that's where the chip came from. The cage can refuse to cash larger chips and surveillance may be called in and usually they want the chips back in the same casino day or weekend. Now MDawg is walking around with $25K chips in his pocket, how long can he keep them in his pocket until the cage objects? Maybe he can plunk it down on a table 2 weeks from now, but the cage is a different animal.

Basically, yes. It's not so much because of RFID tracking, which even at Resorts World only extends to tracking at the table itself, but just the simple fact that the first trip he's showing that he lost everything.

Quote: MDawg

PLUS in your scenario, he's made $50K in chips "disappear" the first trip. $50K bought, $50K lost. Now, according to your scheme, he has nothing left. Assuming he gets away with that, how does he explain that he suddenly has $50K in chips the second trip? He wouldn't be able to cash them at all the second trip as there would be no record of where they came from in the first place.

IN FACT, if you show up at the table with a lot of chips, the first thing the pit boss does is access your player account to make sure there is a record of your having them. Otherwise, you can't even play - and I have seen that happen many times to players who show up especially with even one large denomination chip they claim belong to their friends.
link to original post

Look, I've seen a lot, every which way. You play high limit long enough, or just plain play enough at any casino long enough, let alone all over Vegas, you figure out eventually exactly how things work, and what will work, and what won't.

I've also figured out exactly which casino cages are most vulnerable to robberies, and shortly after we (my wife and I) discussed how easy it would be to hit a certain cage, it was hit, exactly the way we figured it could be. And as far as I know, the robber never got caught.

my experience as a low roller has been that the pit doesn't know squat

when I check the win-loss record I find it to be totally wrong. It seems if I buy in big [big in relation to my bet size] which I always do, then when I cash out this is also big even if I lost money. Mind, I don't like to color up when it's clear I lost almost all of my bankroll, so I don't do that. the dealers, different than were there when I bought in, often clearly think "OK this guy was a winner" The subsequent win-loss record shows a win too, win or lose

this makes me think I could turn cash into a check, at least partially, at least sometimes, at least at low stakes

PS: as will soon be asked, I'll answer now, no I've never tried

Try it, then let us know. I know how it works because I get cage checks for wins all the time, and I know they won't issue a check for above the verified win. I mean yes, if you're arguing that "no I won this much" and the verified win is a little below that, they'll just give it to you (Had it happen both ways, where they just say Okay to a small discrepancy, and had them say, NO, not a penny above the verified win.). But if there is too much of a discrepancy they'll have to contact the pit again, even pull surveillance. Been there.

If the pit isn't keeping accurate count of your win, that will work against you in these circumstances, not for, because it would be rare that they mark you as having won more than you won, at least I've never seen it happen that way. Bunch of low rollers at the table, maybe they don't count the tray every time someone leaves, but at high limit I have, especially in recent times, seen them count every time.

Pit thought I won a $1,000 craps fire bet and put it on my win/loss statement one time early on. I was at the table when the fire bet won, but I didn't have $1 on it so I never got paid. I'm not gonna refer to my win/loss statements for accuracy. But they will say I was there for a specific month using my card for whatever and there was a win or a loss.

Quote: MDawg

Try it, then let us know. I know how it works because I get cage checks for wins all the time, and I know they won't issue a check for a penny above the verified win. End of story.

If the pit isn't keeping accurate count of your win, that will work against you in these circumstances, not for, because it would be rare that they mark you as having won more than you won, at least I've never seen it happen that way.
link to original post

So if you win $49,500 and ask for a check for $50k telling them they forgot your tips or they forgot the 500 chip you gave your wife to go play slots, they will say, ‘sorry’ we can’t ‘verify’ that? The phrase ‘verified win’ is just not real world for us low level players. Maybe it is for you because you make it easy for them as you have no reason not to.

Tell me if this scheme would work. Mr. and Mrs. X come in with $1k each. One bets ‘don’t pass’ while the other bets ‘pass’. The roll is a 7. The ‘pass’ bettor can now get $1k back in cash and a $1k check. So out of the 2k total they turned that into a 1k check and 1k in cash. (The risk was a 12 on the roll).

Casinos don't usually cut checks for less than $5K or $10K, but it depends on the casino.

Quote: SOOPOO

So if you win $49,500 and ask for a check for $50k telling them they forgot your tips or they forgot the 500 chip you gave your wife to go play slots, they will say, ‘sorry’ we can’t ‘verify’ that? The phrase ‘verified win’ is just not real world for us low level players. Maybe it is for you because you make it easy for them as you have no reason not to.

Tell me if this scheme would work. Mr. and Mrs. X come in with $1k each. One bets ‘don’t pass’ while the other bets ‘pass’. The roll is a 7. The ‘pass’ bettor can now get $1k back in cash and a $1k check. So out of the 2k total they turned that into a 1k check and 1k in cash. (The risk was a 12 on the roll).
link to original post

As I noted above,

Quote: MDawg

if you're arguing that "no I won this much" and the verified win is a little below that, they'll just give it to you (Had it happen both ways, where they just say Okay to a small discrepancy, and had them say, NO, not a penny above the verified win.). But if there is too much of a discrepancy they'll have to contact the pit again, even pull surveillance. Been there.
link to original post

As far as that scheme, the casino is trained to weed out shysters like that, but mostly because they are comp hustlers. However, in such a scenario, and we have discussed this before too, if the two players are "shot takers," that is, determined to be just people with no play history who just are there for a single pass each trying to get sum total comps exceeding the potential loss, their accounts will be so noted. If their accounts are so noted as not entitled to comps, and that they were determined to be connected to each other trying to comp hustle, will that also extend to Compliance and a notation that they are trying to money launder? Probably not if it happens just one time, but if it becomes a pattern, they might just get both '86'ed and solve the entire issue all at once.

I mean you have to think realistically. WHY is a couple trying to do that? Do it once to try to comp hustle? Do it once to try to money launder? Do it repeatedly to try one or the other? I'd think comp hustling would be why anyone would try that not to money launder, but who knows.

Quote: Wizard

Let's say a player presents $50,000 in cash, plays table games for a few hours and wins $5,000. He presents the $55,000 in chips at the cage and asks for a check. What would happen?

why did you use the word "laundering" in the title of the thread_________?
"laundering" implies that it's done for purposes of tax evasion or for other nefarious purposes

banks must report large check deposits as well as cash deposits to the IRS

what could a person possibly gain by getting a check instead of cash other than confidence in their own personal safety_________?

I don't get it


from the link:

"Cash or Check Deposits of $10,000 or More: It doesn't matter if you're depositing cash or cashing a check. If you make a deposit of $10,000 or more in a single transaction, your bank must report the transaction to the IRS."


https://www.solvable.com/tax-help/irs/do-banks-report-check-deposits-to-the-irs/#:~:text=Cash%20or%20Check%20Deposits%20of,the%20transaction%20to%20the%20IRS.

.

There's a house edge for both players so I don't see it as comp hustling.

For the above post, it's cashing a large check, depositing the check is fine.
If I wanted $5K cash out of a $20K check, I'd deposit the $20K check one day, wait a week for it to clear, or at least 5 minutes if my bank & the bankcheck is now on the FedNow system that clears checks immediately, then get the cash out the next day. Pretty sure the bank will only let me take $100 of it the same day, and they may make me wait for the week long hold period if my balance is too small for the withdrawal before the check clears.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: Wizard

Let's say a player presents $50,000 in cash, plays table games for a few hours and wins $5,000. He presents the $55,000 in chips at the cage and asks for a check. What would happen?

why did you use the word "laundering" in the title of the thread_________?
"laundering" implies that it's done for purposes of tax evasion or for other nefarious purposes

banks must report large check deposits as well as cash deposits to the IRS

what could a person possibly gain by getting a check instead of cash other than confidence in their own personal safety_________?

I don't get it


from the link:

"Cash or Check Deposits of $10,000 or More: It doesn't matter if you're depositing cash or cashing a check. If you make a deposit of $10,000 or more in a single transaction, your bank must report the transaction to the IRS."


https://www.solvable.com/tax-help/irs/do-banks-report-check-deposits-to-the-irs/#:~:text=Cash%20or%20Check%20Deposits%20of,the%20transaction%20to%20the%20IRS.

.
link to original post

We're talking about two different things.

One is deposit/withdrawal of cash or cash instrument and whether or not that is reported, based on the amount.

One form of money laundering is converting cash to third party check. Any amount of cash converted to third party check may be considered money laundering.


I couldn't even get your link to open but does it really say that deposit of a CHECK is reported? That is not correct.
Edit: Okay I got the link to open. It says that CASHING of a check that results in over $10K cash being handed over is reported, not deposit of the check.
There is also a rule about if the source of a cashier's check is $3000. or more in cash there is some kind of reporting done.

In the blackjack documentary that Wizard is in (forgot the title) the big limits player points out how he uses rfid.

He places a few chips in his clothes at the knees so when he makes wagers they scan into the computer.

The actual wager may be $500 but shows as $2500 to the pit boss in the computer. Of course if he wins he only gets $500 for the physical chips he has on the felt. But it would show as a $2500 win in the computer.

Assuming this is correct (which if not would mean that whole documentary is called into question) you are saying the pitboss actually does a PHYSICAL count of the chips? Or do they just check the rfid tabulated in the computer?

And if there is a discrepancy how would they account for that?

But Assuming the rfid in the knees trick works then a player could fake winnings for a casino check.

BTW, he didn't say that was his purpose. It was to hide from the pit when he raised his bets to $2500 on the table so it looked like he was justflat betting.

Quote: MDawg

I've also figured out exactly which casino cages are most vulnerable to robberies, and shortly after we (my wife and I) discussed how easy it would be to hit a certain cage, it was hit, exactly the way we figured it could be. And as far as I know, the robber never got caught.

Do you suspect your wife?

Quote: MDawg

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: Wizard

Let's say a player presents $50,000 in cash, plays table games for a few hours and wins $5,000. He presents the $55,000 in chips at the cage and asks for a check. What would happen?

why did you use the word "laundering" in the title of the thread_________?
"laundering" implies that it's done for purposes of tax evasion or for other nefarious purposes

banks must report large check deposits as well as cash deposits to the IRS

what could a person possibly gain by getting a check instead of cash other than confidence in their own personal safety_________?

I don't get it


from the link:

"Cash or Check Deposits of $10,000 or More: It doesn't matter if you're depositing cash or cashing a check. If you make a deposit of $10,000 or more in a single transaction, your bank must report the transaction to the IRS."


https://www.solvable.com/tax-help/irs/do-banks-report-check-deposits-to-the-irs/#:~:text=Cash%20or%20Check%20Deposits%20of,the%20transaction%20to%20the%20IRS.

.
link to original post

We're talking about two different things.

One is deposit/withdrawal of cash or cash instrument and whether or not that is reported, based on the amount.

One form of money laundering is converting cash to third party check. Any amount of cash converted to third party check may be considered money laundering.


I couldn't even get your link to open but does it really say that deposit of a CHECK is reported? That is not correct.
Edit: Okay I got the link to open. It says that CASHING of a check that results in over $10K cash being handed over is reported, not deposit of the check.
There is also a rule about if the source of a cashier's check is $3000. or more in cash there is some kind of reporting done.
link to original post

here is a link from the IRS:

quote:

"Generally, any person in a trade or business who receives more than $10,000 in cash in a single transaction or in related transactions must file a Form 8300

For Form 8300 reporting, cash includes coins and currency of the United States or any foreign country. It's also cash equivalents that include cashier's checks (sometimes called a treasurer's check or bank check), bank drafts, traveler's checks or money orders


https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understand-how-to-report-large-cash-transactions

.

The chip in the knee concept sounds ridiculous. First of all, in all of Vegas the only casino I know of that even used RFID tracking at the tables, is Resorts World. The function of that chip at all the other casinos is just to verify the authenticity of the chip at the cage.

At RW Vegas, the system is pretty sensitive and the chips are first assigned to the player so that the detector at the table knows which chips belong to which player. Then, it requires the chip to be placed right in the correct spot on the table assigned to that player. And if the stack is too high, like even more than about ten chips high, sometimes it is inaccurate and the dealer has to keep picking up and putting back down the stack to get it to register.

Now, ten chips isn't much of a distance, so I doubt a chip under the table even if it WERE in the exact right spot would register. Further, the RW system is used not just to track the bet but also to determine the pay out. I've seen times when the system under calculates the pile of chips and the dealer has to recount manually and then place the payout stack next to the played chips stacks in a special area to make certain they match. If someone could get away with tricking the system to record a larger bet he'd also be tricking the system to pay out more than bet every time the won. That's not just comp hustling but theft.

I'd have to watch that video, but anyway, in Vegas, only RW uses RFID tracking at the table and it used not just to track bets but also for payouts.

As far as counting the rack when a new player arrives and leaves, that is done at all high limit salons in casinos. At RW, they don't need to do it because the system is supposed to be keeping track of all that. The RW system does fail - one of the first times I played there I played all day long and won six figures, then when I went to the cage they told me the computer had me down for LOSING low five figures. Eventually the pit boss came up and manually verified the win, and I got the winning check. But that was when RW Vegas was very new and subsequently I noted that their system was quite accurate and nothing like that ever happened again.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: MDawg

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: Wizard

Let's say a player presents $50,000 in cash, plays table games for a few hours and wins $5,000. He presents the $55,000 in chips at the cage and asks for a check. What would happen?

why did you use the word "laundering" in the title of the thread_________?
"laundering" implies that it's done for purposes of tax evasion or for other nefarious purposes

banks must report large check deposits as well as cash deposits to the IRS

what could a person possibly gain by getting a check instead of cash other than confidence in their own personal safety_________?

I don't get it


from the link:

"Cash or Check Deposits of $10,000 or More: It doesn't matter if you're depositing cash or cashing a check. If you make a deposit of $10,000 or more in a single transaction, your bank must report the transaction to the IRS."


https://www.solvable.com/tax-help/irs/do-banks-report-check-deposits-to-the-irs/#:~:text=Cash%20or%20Check%20Deposits%20of,the%20transaction%20to%20the%20IRS.

.
link to original post

We're talking about two different things.

One is deposit/withdrawal of cash or cash instrument and whether or not that is reported, based on the amount.

One form of money laundering is converting cash to third party check. Any amount of cash converted to third party check may be considered money laundering.


I couldn't even get your link to open but does it really say that deposit of a CHECK is reported? That is not correct.
Edit: Okay I got the link to open. It says that CASHING of a check that results in over $10K cash being handed over is reported, not deposit of the check.
There is also a rule about if the source of a cashier's check is $3000. or more in cash there is some kind of reporting done.
link to original post

here is a link from the IRS:

quote:

"Generally, any person in a trade or business who receives more than $10,000 in cash in a single transaction or in related transactions must file a Form 8300

For Form 8300 reporting, cash includes coins and currency of the United States or any foreign country. It's also cash equivalents that include cashier's checks (sometimes called a treasurer's check or bank check), bank drafts, traveler's checks or money orders


https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understand-how-to-report-large-cash-transactions

.
link to original post

Only cash or cash instruments are reported via CTR. Not checks, not cashier's checks, not bank wires. However if the SOURCE of the checks, cashier's checks, or bank wires was originally cash, that input of cash is reported.

You're either finding faulty sources or not reading them in their entirety.

Okay you have to start reading this stuff more thoroughly, lest it lead to misinformation.

Form 8300 is not a CTR.

And the reporting of other than straight cash as far as Form 8300 is for

It's also cash equivalents that include cashier's checks (sometimes called a treasurer's check or bank check), bank drafts, traveler's checks or money orders with a face amount of $10,000 or less that a person receives for:

A designated reporting transaction or
Any transaction in which the person knows the payer is trying to avoid the reporting requirement.

"A designated reporting transaction or Any transaction in which the person knows the payer is trying to avoid the reporting requirement" does not mean that every time a business is paid via a big check it has to report anything.

Plus Form 8300 is not for casinos as far as their dealing with players, casinos deal in CTRs as far as their interaction with players.


Anyway, you may deposit a check, cashier's check or send in a bank wire for any amount to the casino or bank, nothing will be reported. I've received bank wires and deposited regular checks or cashier's checks seven figures in my line of business, nothing has ever been reported. You may also receive a check or wire from a casino for any amount, if it is pursuant to a table game win, nothing will be reported.

Quote: DRich

Quote: MDawg

I've also figured out exactly which casino cages are most vulnerable to robberies, and shortly after we (my wife and I) discussed how easy it would be to hit a certain cage, it was hit, exactly the way we figured it could be. And as far as I know, the robber never got caught.

Do you suspect your wife?
link to original post

Well the robber was described as male....

Quote: MDawg

The chip in the knee concept sounds ridiculous. First of all, in all of Vegas the only casino I know of that even used RFID tracking at the tables, is Resorts World. The function of that chip at all the other casinos is just to verify the authenticity of the chip at the cage.

At RW Vegas, the system is pretty sensitive and the chips are first assigned to the player so that the detector at the table knows which chips belong to which player. Then, it requires the chip to be placed right in the correct spot on the table assigned to that player. And if the stack is too high, like even more than about ten chips high, sometimes it is inaccurate and the dealer has to keep picking up and putting back down the stack to get it to register.

Now, ten chips isn't much of a distance, so I doubt a chip under the table even if it WERE in the exact right spot would register. Further, the RW system is used not just to track the bet but also to determine the pay out. I've seen times when the system under calculates the pile of chips and the dealer has to recount manually and then place the payout stack next to the played chips stacks in a special area to make certain they match. If someone could get away with tricking the system to record a larger bet he'd also be tricking the system to pay out more than bet every time the won. That's not just comp hustling but theft.

I'd have to watch that video, but anyway, in Vegas, only RW uses RFID tracking at the table and it used not just to track bets but also for payouts.

As far as counting the rack when a new player arrives and leaves, that is done at all high limit casinos. At RW, they don't need to do it because the system is supposed to be keeping track of all that. The RW system does fail - one of the first times I played there I played all day long and won six figures, then when I went to the cage they told me the computer had me down for LOSING low five figures. Eventually the pit boss came up and manually verified the win, and I got the winning check. But that was when RW Vegas was very new and subsequently I noted that their system was quite accurate and nothing like that ever happened again.
link to original post

Well it's on Amazon prime. The Wizard will know the film. He's interviewed twice in it.

If memory serves the rfid is discussed about 13 minutes in so you don't have to watch it all

Watch it and get back to us

I saw something where the RFID in each chip can be tracked by surveillance like little laser dots in a room. If the chip goes off the property it goes off the radar. But they can click on those dots and get a denomination & serial number of that chip. Might need some RFID safe tourist bag to blind surveillance to how many chips you've ratholed as you walk around the floor.

.
I still feel the use of the word "laundering" was inappropriate
t's possible some would be doing it for that purpose
but it's likely many would be doing it without any nefarious intentions

.

Well, the casino's Compliance Dept. has rules against this sort of thing because they don't want to be guilty of money laundering, or facilitating it. There's really no other reason for their caring.

You buy in for $10k, win $4k, grab your chips and go to dinner

Are the chip trays electronically monitored (like minibar items) so they know exactly how much you were up before you left ?

Well, you don't need RW Vegas level monitoring for that. You win 4K the pit records 4K win at the end of the session and that you walked with 14K.

The way the RFID system works at RW Vegas, is that when you arrive at the table and get your chips they are assigned to you electronically as they are handed to you. I am not sure what happens if you come to the table with chips, maybe for that the pit boss has to enter them in manually as at any other casino. As you play the RW system keeps track of what you bet, what you win, what you lose, so, yes - when you leave it knows how much you leave with.

But at RW, once you leave the table the tracking stops there. It has to start over again when you return.

You buy in for $50k, win $10k, grab your chips and leave. How would the pit know how much you left with ?

Is that a serious question?

MDawg only plays alone. I haven't a clue how they figure out what you've won if there's 7 or more players at a table. I figure they just enter your buy-in and color-up amount when you leave on the pit computer kiosk. How they figure an average bet amount for a player that constantly switches bet amounts or number of betting pods just seems like fools arithmetic.

There's always the table chip tray refills that count out how much is coming or going from the table, but it'd be hard to pin it down to one player being responsible for all the chips missing unless there was only one player.

Quote: MDawg

Is that a serious question?
link to original post

Yes. Why wouldn’t it be ?

Quote: Ace2

You buy in for $50k, win $10k, grab your chips and leave. How would the pit know how much you left with ?
link to original post

Ask the dealer?

Assuming a regular non-RFID tracking system:

If you arrive at the table with no chips, the pit would know what you buy in for with cash, or pull from your credit line.

If you arrive with chips, the pit boss will ask What you got there? and maybe ask you to spread the chips on the table to show what exactly you have.

Then when you leave, if you do leave with any chips (no blowout), he'll ask the same, What you got there? If you ignore him and just run off, he'll ask the dealer. In the ran off circumstances, I've even seen other players pipe up and tell the pit boss exactly what happened. "He had only two K left." &etc.

At a high limit table they'll count the rack regularly including anytime a player leaves.

Between all they, they don't miss much.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: Wizard

Let's say a player presents $50,000 in cash, plays table games for a few hours and wins $5,000. He presents the $55,000 in chips at the cage and asks for a check. What would happen?

why did you use the word "laundering" in the title of the thread_________?
"laundering" implies that it's done for purposes of tax evasion or for other nefarious purposes

banks must report large check deposits as well as cash deposits to the IRS

what could a person possibly gain by getting a check instead of cash other than confidence in their own personal safety_________?

I don't get it

What you don't get is how money laundering works and why you do it. Money laundering involves three steps. Placement, layering, and integration.

Lets say a person has a nice little drug business as that is one of the biggest businesses in need of laundering services. Not even a top level guy, just someone making 10-20K a week. If they take this to a bank they have a problem. Now, they can pay cash for lots of things, but that kind of funds on a regular basis? But....

Some businesses legit have large cash deposits. Vending machines, car washes, restaurants, laser tag, etc. The bank still has to report it, but you just point at the business. That is placement.

The illicit money goes with the illegal money, mixed together. This is layering. Laser tag place has 100 legit players but says it had 175. Just so you do not get too cute about it you can go on for quite some time.

Integration. The money is in the account. Taxes are paid. Who knows what happened?

Now, for bigger players it gets harder. So they might put funds into an overseas bank who does not care as much. Then they get a collaterallized loan with funds wired to the USA. That money is clean. Then just not pay. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Back to casinos. A guy wants to clean money. So he buys in at the table for $50,000. We will imagine there are no suspicious currency reports at this part. He plays a few hands and gets up from the table. Tells his host, "Can I get a check? I am flying and don't want to have all this cash."

BOOM, clean money! No reports for the bank to file.

This kind of thing can be used for online poker. Get the money in, maybe with prepaid debit cards. Maybe crypto. Sit head to head, play a few hands, go all-in. Someone has clean money!

Laundering a few hundred grand once is easy. But that meth dealer has to do it week after week after week. Lots of these guys are cheap and will not pay well to launder if at all. But some smart ones get it.

Quote: AZDuffman

Back to casinos. A guy wants to clean money. So he buys in at the table for $50,000. We will imagine there are no suspicious currency reports at this part. He plays a few hands and gets up from the table. Tells his host, "Can I get a check? I am flying and don't want to have all this cash."

BOOM, clean money! No reports for the bank to file.
link to original post

Yes, but the point is that while this might have happened thirty years ago, it cannot happen today.

The host doesn't have any say in it, it's all Casino Compliance these days.

What would actually happen, would be more like this scenario I described.


This casino, for example, got in trouble just for failing to file the CTRs and SARs, never even got to the point of issuing any checks for cash.
Los Angeles casino agrees to pay $500,000 settlement and submit to increased review of anti-money laundering compliance program

Other examples:
21 charged in casino-based money laundering scheme

Cops: Drug money laundered at NH casinos

15-month investigation leads to one of the largest money laundering, game room busts in East Texas history

Vegas casino’s attempt to collect a debt exposes world of Chinese high-rollers

Wynn Investigated For Money Laundering: What It Means

etc.

Quote: Ace2

You buy in for $50k, win $10k, grab your chips and leave. How would the pit know how much you left with ?
link to original post

Because when you arrived, the chip rack had $150,000, and when you left, it had only $140,000. As MDawg said several times in this thread, in the High Limit rooms the rack count is checked every time a player leaves the table.

Dog Hand

If I was going to money launder it would be loading cash into high denom slots

Let's say trying to clean $50,000

Wagering say $200 a spin without a players card. You will win some large jackpots which can add up to $50,000 in w2G.

Perhaps you will lose ten grand for real but you aren't trying to profit but launder. And maybe you actually will win a few thousand or more.

I am not sure what you are getting at, but the object of money laundering is to convert the cash to non-cash. Without reporting along the way.

Again, I don't know what comes out at the other end of your slot machine example, but if you feed $50K cash into a machine I'd think that there will be some cash reporting done, win or lose, just for the entry alone? If you are sitting at the tables and keep buying in, and they won't even let you get to the point of $10K unless you're fully identified, once your buy in passes $10K cash a CTR will be filed on you.

Anyway, it's not like a certain pile of cash is "dirty" and another is "clean." The object of these drug dealers and such is to get their bills into a form other than cash, without any reporting along the way. The bills themselves aren't reported stolen or traceable, the dealers just need to be able to spend them in legitimate commerce without getting reported.

Just use bitcoin, like the cartels and the rest of the scumbags.

Quote: MDawg

I am not sure what you are getting at, but the object of money laundering is to convert the cash to non-cash. Without reporting along the way.

Again, I don't know what comes out at the other end of your slot machine example, but if you feed $50K cash into a machine I'd think that there will be some cash reporting done, win or lose, just for the entry alone? If you are sitting at the tables and keep buying in, and they won't even let you get to the point of $10K unless you're fully identified, once your buy in passes $10K cash a CTR will be filed on you.

Anyway, it's not like a certain pile of cash is "dirty" and another is "clean." The object of these drug dealers and such is to get their bills into a form other than cash, without any reporting along the way. The bills themselves aren't reported stolen or traceable, the dealers just need to be able to spend them in legitimate commerce without getting reported.
link to original post

Isn't the object of money laundering to be able to spend the money you make illegally appear to come from a legal source?

In which case cash won from gambling at slots would be a valid means of proving income.

As for getting reported by putting cash into a slot I now get to say what you always do about high limit players. You don't have any experience at slots.

You can play rated or unrated. No one is watching your coin in unrated. And on top of that it's not unusual for churning that is to put $1300 cash in, lose it, win a $1300 jackpot and just put that back in. Very easily fifty grand coin in can come about with just a few thousand. So they don't follow that.

Anyway if you are suggesting it's only considered money laundering if the person turns it into non-cash, W2G jackpots can be requested to be paid in check. Usually if you win a very large amount they ask if you want that.
Which incidentally is exactly what you say a casino will not do. Pay by check anything except verified profits. It's done all the time with W2-G checks

Yeah, I get so many $20 bills from the ATM, I go to the slots and launder them to take the voucher to the cage to get clean $100 bills.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

I am not sure what you are getting at, but the object of money laundering is to convert the cash to non-cash. Without reporting along the way.

Again, I don't know what comes out at the other end of your slot machine example, but if you feed $50K cash into a machine I'd think that there will be some cash reporting done, win or lose, just for the entry alone? If you are sitting at the tables and keep buying in, and they won't even let you get to the point of $10K unless you're fully identified, once your buy in passes $10K cash a CTR will be filed on you.

Anyway, it's not like a certain pile of cash is "dirty" and another is "clean." The object of these drug dealers and such is to get their bills into a form other than cash, without any reporting along the way. The bills themselves aren't reported stolen or traceable, the dealers just need to be able to spend them in legitimate commerce without getting reported.
link to original post

Isn't the object of money laundering to be able to spend the money you make illegally appear to come from a legal source?

In which case cash won from gambling at slots would be a valid means of proving income.

As for getting reported by putting cash into a slot I now get to say what you always do about high limit players. You don't have any experience at slots.

You can play rated or unrated. No one is watching your coin in unrated. And on top of that it's not unusual for churning that is to put $1300 cash in, lose it, win a $1300 jackpot and just put that back in. Very easily fifty grand coin in can come about with just a few thousand. So they don't follow that.

Anyway if you are suggesting it's only considered money laundering if the person turns it into non-cash, W2G jackpots can be requested to be paid in check. Usually if you win a very large amount they ask if you want that.
Which incidentally is exactly what you say a casino will not do. Pay by check anything except verified profits. It's done all the time with W2-G checks
link to original post

I don't play slots. So a person may get over $10K cash into a slot machine and not have a CTR filed against him?

In your scenario will you get checks for the payout?

Ultimately though, you end up with reported income (the W2-Gs) but no explanation for where it came from - where did you get the funds to stick into the slot machine?

What money launderers accomplish or try to accomplish is getting these checks that they then stick in the bank with no one reporting anything.

Quote: MDawg

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

I am not sure what you are getting at, but the object of money laundering is to convert the cash to non-cash. Without reporting along the way.

Again, I don't know what comes out at the other end of your slot machine example, but if you feed $50K cash into a machine I'd think that there will be some cash reporting done, win or lose, just for the entry alone? If you are sitting at the tables and keep buying in, and they won't even let you get to the point of $10K unless you're fully identified, once your buy in passes $10K cash a CTR will be filed on you.

Anyway, it's not like a certain pile of cash is "dirty" and another is "clean." The object of these drug dealers and such is to get their bills into a form other than cash, without any reporting along the way. The bills themselves aren't reported stolen or traceable, the dealers just need to be able to spend them in legitimate commerce without getting reported.
link to original post

Isn't the object of money laundering to be able to spend the money you make illegally appear to come from a legal source?

In which case cash won from gambling at slots would be a valid means of proving income.

As for getting reported by putting cash into a slot I now get to say what you always do about high limit players. You don't have any experience at slots.

You can play rated or unrated. No one is watching your coin in unrated. And on top of that it's not unusual for churning that is to put $1300 cash in, lose it, win a $1300 jackpot and just put that back in. Very easily fifty grand coin in can come about with just a few thousand. So they don't follow that.

Anyway if you are suggesting it's only considered money laundering if the person turns it into non-cash, W2G jackpots can be requested to be paid in check. Usually if you win a very large amount they ask if you want that.
Which incidentally is exactly what you say a casino will not do. Pay by check anything except verified profits. It's done all the time with W2-G checks
link to original post

I don't play slots. So a person may get over $10K cash into a slot machine and not have a CTR filed against him?

In your scenario will you get checks for the payout?

Ultimately though, you end up with reported income but no explanation for where it came from - where did you get the funds to stick into the slot machine?

What money launderers accomplish or try to accomplish is getting these checks that they then stick in the bank with no one reporting anything.
link to original post

If you are playing unrated there is nothing tying you to the losses so nothing to file a CTR on. The individual slots are not being watched for coin in.

If you won $2000 with a $200 spin all you have to prove is you had $200 and the IRS isn't going to insist you first lost money.

So no the IRS isn't going to ask. And who can't prove they made $200?

Assuming it is possible to get $50K cash into a machine and not suffer any CTRs....

Is the whole thing economically feasible? Generally the way the money launderers used to hit Vegas is to buy in at the tables, pretend to be bona fide players, then go to the cage and get a check for all their chips. Or spread the chips out among different players, who all got checks. But that sort of thing was shut down years ago, ever since casinos started being strict about the checks only for verified winnings rule, so if they try anything in the casinos nowadays they have to be more sophisticated. Still, if they end up losing a big chunk of the money in the process, no matter how successful the rinsing operation is, it's not worth it to them.

So if the rinsing of the money ends up losing most of it, then from a business standpoint they might as well pay professional money laundering syndicates the demanded points (percentage) to rinse their money.

In your example, how much cash do you have to run through there, and lose, to end up with 50K of W-2Gs?

Also, I'll ask again, will you end up with a bunch of at least checks, or just a big pile of cash again, that you still can't get into the bank without being reported. You may wave those W-2Gs anywhere you like they won't prevent the bank from issuing a CTR when you deposit over $10K of that cash, or a business from filing a Form 8300 against you if you buy something for over $10K cash.

Regarding the verified win, would the casino cage object if the win amount were paid via casino check payable to a third party?

Quote: MDawg

Assuming it is possible to get $50K cash into a machine and not suffer any CTRs....

Is the whole thing economically feasible? Generally the way the money launderers used to hit Vegas is to buy in at the tables, pretend to be bona fide players, then go to the cage and get a check for all their chips. Or spread the chips out among different players, who all got checks. But that sort of thing was shut down years ago, ever since casinos started being strict about the checks only for verified winnings rule, so if they try anything in the casinos nowadays they have to be more sophisticated. Still, if they end up losing a big chunk of the money in the process, no matter how successful the rinsing operation is, it's not worth it to them.

So if the rinsing of the money ends up losing most of it, then from a business standpoint they might as well pay professional money laundering syndicates the demanded points (percentage) to rinse their money.

In your example, how much cash do you have to run through there, and lose, to end up with 50K of W-2Gs?

Also, I'll ask again, will you end up with a bunch of at least checks, or just a big pile of cash again, that you still can't get into the bank without being reported. You may wave those W-2Gs anywhere you like they won't prevent the bank from issuing a CTR when you deposit over $10K of that cash, or a business from filing a Form 8300 against you if you buy something for over $10K cash.
link to original post

You don't need checks to launder money(cash payments will do), you just need a way to make the money seem as if you obtained it legitimately. Getting large amounts of cash from casino wins and depositing it in the bank can sometimes be tricky, some banks don't like it and they will close your account if it's done consistently. (BOA is notorious for this).

I believe casinos are supposed to be watching players and giving CTRs/SARs for slots (Drich would be the person to ask) However, it's just not feasible to keep track of all the slot players.

"economically feasible?" It all depends, If done correctly you're giving up little to no value and one can even have +EV situations.

Back in the day in Florida, they had Lotto-type progressives with good meter movement. Jackpots regularly got to 50k+ and +EV oftentimes over $100 an hour. There were some dangerous teams targeting +EV numbers while laundering money. The machines would fill up quickly once they hit a certain level and there was a big list.
Guys were there all day and night.

The casino or the other teams didn't take kindly to outside teams.

You couldn't use NV ID without having problems.

The machines only took $20 bills or less so it solved multiple problems.
Landuring small bills.
+EV situation with no cost to launder money, you actually make money in the long run.
A proven source of income.

Quote: MDawg

Assuming it is possible to get $50K cash into a machine and not suffer any CTRs....

Is the whole thing economically feasible? Generally the way the money launderers used to hit Vegas is to buy in at the tables, pretend to be bona fide players, then go to the cage and get a check for all their chips. Or spread the chips out among different players, who all got checks. But that sort of thing was shut down years ago, ever since casinos started being strict about the checks only for verified winnings rule, so if they try anything in the casinos nowadays they have to be more sophisticated. Still, if they end up losing a big chunk of the money in the process, no matter how successful the rinsing operation is, it's not worth it to them.

So if the rinsing of the money ends up losing most of it, then from a business standpoint they might as well pay professional money laundering syndicates the demanded points (percentage) to rinse their money.

In your example, how much cash do you have to run through there, and lose, to end up with 50K of W-2Gs?

Also, I'll ask again, will you end up with a bunch of at least checks, or just a big pile of cash again, that you still can't get into the bank without being reported. You may wave those W-2Gs anywhere you like they won't prevent the bank from issuing a CTR when you deposit over $10K of that cash, or a business from filing a Form 8300 against you if you buy something for over $10K cash.
link to original post

Axel just answered a few questions.

So let's see. Can a slot accept $50,000? Firstly I don't understand why it's necessary. You could win W2G jackpots playing multiple slots. Why is it necessary for any single slot to accept fifty grand?

Secondly I believe they can but not certain. I have put close to forty into a single slot in one session no problem being with hundred dollar bills of course.

Are you asking can you put $50,000 in at once? The answer is no. The standard is up to $3000. But once it goes lower you can ads. So of you have lost $1000 and now have $2000 in the slot you can easily add another $1000. So over the course of a few hours you could put $50,000 in.

Checks. I get asked do I want cash or check when I win large amounts. Usually over five or ten grand. And never ever have they suggested that I could only get paid part of the w2g win because I had previously lost and they could only cut a check for actual profits. Never!

As far as the casino is concerned the W2-G is a verified total win. (Even on a players card although obviously at the end of the year my losses will offset my wins but for getting cut checks they don't do any subtraction for prior losses that day).

My biggest single win was for $29,000+ on a $25 pull. They asked me if I wanted cash, check or combination and I took $10,000 cash and the balance as check.

As for banks, I personally did have a situation where I was temporarily shut down until I could prove my financial income and I sent in W2-G's totaling over a hundred grand and that was all they needed to reopen my account. So yes, waving W2-G documents can work with the bank. AxelWolf says some are finicky. That's their problem.

Finally time wise I have won over fifty grand in W2G jackpots more than once. Maybe took four hours. It's gambling so can't really predict. I mean it's possible to hit fifty grand in just a 5 second pull. They do have $50,000 must hits. But it's certainly doable to get that many.