I am playing JB’s Simple Pai Gow Strategy which I found relatively easy to master. There is one point however that I don’t fully understand. Point 4.3. „Play the best low hand if the best high and is worth 6 points, but its high tile ranks lower than a H6. What would be an example of this rule?
It also confuses me that points 4.2. and 4.3. are not combined. Play the best low hand if the best high hand is worth 6 points or less. Am I missing something here? Looking forward to your answers. Thank you.
H6 is the 3/3 tile and L6 would be the 1/5 tile.
I'm sure Wizard will correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, I always found the expression of the rules there to be a bit cumbersome. These general play rules can be paraphrased as follows:Quote: OKI am currently learning Pai Gow Tiles. So far I have memorized the chinese rankings but I still don’t know what the difference is between a H6 and a high6 for example. I gather that H6 refers to the higher single six-tile but what does high6 mean? Is it a combination of the Mooy and the Chong? Which combination would be considered a low6?
I am playing JB’s Simple Pai Gow Strategy which I found relatively easy to master. There is one point however that I don’t fully understand. Point 4.3. „Play the best low hand if the best high and is worth 6 points, but its high tile ranks lower than a H6. What would be an example of this rule?
It also confuses me that points 4.2. and 4.3. are not combined. Play the best low hand if the best high hand is worth 6 points or less. Am I missing something here? Looking forward to your answers. Thank you.
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- Play the best low hand if it’s at least a 5, or if the best high hand is lower than 6-with-H6, otherwise play the best high hand.
OR, to put it another way…
- Play the best low if your best low is strong (5 or higher) or if your best high is weak (lower than 6 with-H6). Otherwise play the best high hand.
(note - the general play rules under optimal strategy are slightly different)
Hope this helps.
Quote: TinManRelatedly but I’d recommend downloading the free phone app for practice. It will correct you for errors. I use an iPhone and it works well. WOO has a trainer too but I don’t think it’s available as an app.
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What's the name of the app? You're right, my game is not available as an app.
Quote: WizardQuote: TinManRelatedly but I’d recommend downloading the free phone app for practice. It will correct you for errors. I use an iPhone and it works well. WOO has a trainer too but I don’t think it’s available as an app.
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What's the name of the app? You're right, my game is not available as an app.
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I didn't want to name the app initially in case there was a rule against promotion or something like that. (To be clear, I have no affiliation with this app, other than that I downloaded it like 2 years ago to help learn the game after seeing the WOO videos).
It's called "Practice Pai Gow Tiles" in the Apple App store. Free download. It's basic, but there are features I like:
(a) You can select 4 tiles and it'll show you the expectation for each way to set the hand.
(b) It'll tell you if you don't set your hand the ideal way.
(c) It keeps stats on how often you set your hand in the ideal way.
(d) This may seem silly, but I found it helpful that you can choose whether to have the tiles always oriented "correctly" (right side up) or have the orientation vary (sometimes upside down). I know it's weird, but when I was learning the game, I found it helpful to see the tiles upside down sometimes (like I would in a casino) so I got used to that orientation. When you ONLY see the tiles correct side up, you can be thrown off in a casino.
The EV calculator seems to be right, but I really can't vouch for it. I hope it's correct. The app does let you bank, but I have no idea if the EV calculator is sensitive enough to have marginal strategy differences for banking vs. not banking (intuitively, I assume if you're banking there may be situations where you're OK with a 0 in the low hand but would avoid a 0 in the low hand when not banking. I'm sure there are other differences too).
You have an option to pay for chips, but I don't think you ever should. You can bet 25 and you get a few hundred chips for watching a brief ad, so those can usually last you a while.
Quote: TinManQuote: WizardQuote: TinManRelatedly but I’d recommend downloading the free phone app for practice. It will correct you for errors. I use an iPhone and it works well. WOO has a trainer too but I don’t think it’s available as an app.
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What's the name of the app? You're right, my game is not available as an app.
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I didn't want to name the app initially in case there was a rule against promotion or something like that. (To be clear, I have no affiliation with this app, other than that I downloaded it like 2 years ago to help learn the game after seeing the WOO videos).
It's called "Practice Pai Gow Tiles" in the Apple App store. Free download. It's basic, but there are features I like:
(a) You can select 4 tiles and it'll show you the expectation for each way to set the hand.
(b) It'll tell you if you don't set your hand the ideal way.
(c) It keeps stats on how often you set your hand in the ideal way.
(d) This may seem silly, but I found it helpful that you can choose whether to have the tiles always oriented "correctly" (right side up) or have the orientation vary (sometimes upside down). I know it's weird, but when I was learning the game, I found it helpful to see the tiles upside down sometimes (like I would in a casino) so I got used to that orientation. When you ONLY see the tiles correct side up, you can be thrown off in a casino.
The EV calculator seems to be right, but I really can't vouch for it. I hope it's correct. The app does let you bank, but I have no idea if the EV calculator is sensitive enough to have marginal strategy differences for banking vs. not banking (intuitively, I assume if you're banking there may be situations where you're OK with a 0 in the low hand but would avoid a 0 in the low hand when not banking. I'm sure there are other differences too).
You have an option to pay for chips, but I don't think you ever should. You can bet 25 and you get a few hundred chips for watching a brief ad, so those can usually last you a while.
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Yes, I use that app too. I really like the interface and the fact that there is an option to orient the ties randomly. The strategy sometimes differs from JB's optimal play, but I don't know what house way it's using. Sometimes it makes some bonehead dealer plays, such as...
In your context the High or Low refers to the tile. High Six is Cheung (3-3) whereas the Lo Six is (5-1). In a similar way High Eight is (4-4) and Low Eight would refer to either the (5-3) or (6-2) tile.
There is another context and that is where you have a choice how to set the tiles but keep the same totals, it is known as strengthening. An example might be how you play and hand with a H10 (5-5) and L10 (6-4) and which one to use with and L8 and 9, or L6 and 5. (Try this on https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-tiles/calculator/ ). In the former you set 8/High9, in the latter High5/6.
As it happens there is also a House rule concerning the High Six (Cheung) tile. So with L10 7 H6 L4 the House would make 3/4, whereas with L10 7 L6 L4 the House would make 0/7 (as the 3 isn't good enough). Players should normally play 0/7 (unless counting Teens and Days).
1) 4 known tiles(own hand) with perfect strategy -------- HE = -1.6593% ?
2) 8 known tiles(own hand + 1 other player) with perfect collusion strategy
3) 12 known tiles(own hand+ 2 other players) with perfect collusion strategy
4) 16 known tiles(own hand+ 3 other players) with perfect collusion strategy
5) 20 known tiles(own hand+ 4 other players) with perfect collusion strategy
6) 24 known tiles(own hand+ 5 other players) with perfect collusion strategy
The casino here may allow up to total 5 players(own hand+ 4 other players) to play the game(Case 5) but players are not allowed to act as banker.
Quote: UP84These general play rules can be paraphrased as follows:
- Play the best low hand if it’s at least a 5, or if the best high hand is lower than 6-with-H6, otherwise play the best high hand.
OR, to put it another way…
- Play the best low if your best low is strong (5 or higher) or if your best high is weak (lower than 6 with-H6). Otherwise play the best high hand.
(note - the general play rules under optimal strategy are slightly different)
Hope this helps.
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Thank you. That`s what I was looking for. So the best high hand must be lower than 6 with a Cheung 6 (H10-H6 or L10-H6) is that right? 5-H7 / L8-H8 is lower than 6 with H6 but the calculator plays 2-6 instead of 3-5. Why?
---------------------------------------------------Quote: UP84These general play rules can be paraphrased as follows:
- Play the best low hand if it’s at least a 5, or if the best high hand is lower than 6-with-H6, otherwise play the best high hand.
OR, to put it another way…
- Play the best low if your best low is strong (5 or higher) or if your best high is weak (lower than 6 with-H6). Otherwise play the best high hand.
(note - the general play rules under optimal strategy are slightly different)
Hope this helps.
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Correct, to play the best low.Quote: okThank you. That`s what I was looking for. So the best high hand must be lower than 6 with a Cheung 6 (H10-H6 or L10-H6) is that right?
No, the best high here - the 6 formed from L8-H8 - contains a Yun, which is ranked higher than a Chong. So we go through the general play progression: For playing the best low hand, is either (1) the best low strong (5 or higher)? No; or (2) Is the best high weak (lower than a 6 with H6)? No, because the 6 contains a Yun. Therefore, play the best high hand (the L8-H8 6).Quote: ok5-H7 / L8-H8 is lower than 6 with H6 but the calculator plays 2-6 instead of 3-5. Why?
Quote: OKI am currently learning Pai Gow Tiles. So far I have memorized the chinese rankings but I still don’t know what the difference is between a H6 and a high6 for example. I gather that H6 refers to the higher single six-tile but what does high6 mean? Is it a combination of the Mooy and the Chong? Which combination would be considered a low6?
I am playing JB’s Simple Pai Gow Strategy which I found relatively easy to master. There is one point however that I don’t fully understand. Point 4.3. „Play the best low hand if the best high and is worth 6 points, but its high tile ranks lower than a H6. What would be an example of this rule?
It also confuses me that points 4.2. and 4.3. are not combined. Play the best low hand if the best high hand is worth 6 points or less. Am I missing something here? Looking forward to your answers. Thank you.
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There are total 496 different combinations if you choose 2 tiles from 32 tiles.
If we assign a point system for this 2 tiles, for example, GEE JOON = 500, Six Point(HIGH) = 6.2, SIX point(LOW) = 6.1.....etc., can you list down the point value of each combinations ?
1) GEE JOON = 500 points
2) .....
.
.
.
496)....
I am thinking to write a program to find the player ev with a perfect collusion strategy(from 1 player to 6 players).
When I used to play the other players seemed very keen to know how many Teens and Days were out; and then occasionally they would look at 7s 8s and 9s. I suspect the logic was to see how likely Hi9s, Wongs and Gongs were to make, and if not the bank was likely to make a good low hand rather than Hi9+ and whatever's left. I don't know if this helps.
btw if I was thinking of looking at collusion I might use the Blackjack eor method and see how useful the lack of Teens/Days, Nines etc were and which decisions are worth worring about. For instance with BJ you want to know how many 10s/Aces there are for doubling, and low cards for whether to hit 16 vs 10.
Quote: charliepatrickWhile there are 32 tiles, they're not all different; so the combinations isn't quite as high as 32*31/2. Also I'm assuming you don't care which 9 you actually get, since they're logically the same. Thus I think you can have 16 pairs and 16*15/2 = 120 non-pairs.
When I used to play the other players seemed very keen to know how many Teens and Days were out; and then occasionally they would look at 7s 8s and 9s. I suspect the logic was to see how likely Hi9s, Wongs and Gongs were to make, and if not the bank was likely to make a good low hand rather than Hi9+ and whatever's left. I don't know if this helps.
btw if I was thinking of looking at collusion I might use the Blackjack eor method and see how useful the lack of Teens/Days, Nines etc were and which decisions are worth worring about. For instance with BJ you want to know how many 10s/Aces there are for doubling, and low cards for whether to hit 16 vs 10.
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I agree that the no of different combinations is less than 496.
I am new to Pai Gow. Once we assign the "point" value for each different 2 tiles combinations, then I think it's quite easy to find ev's where players use collusion strategy.
Quote: UP84No, the best high here - the 6 formed from L8-H8 - contains a Yun, which is ranked higher than a Chong. So we go through the general play progression: For playing the best low hand, is either (1) the best low strong (5 or higher)? No; or (2) Is the best high weak (lower than a 6 with H6)? No, because the 6 contains a Yun. Therefore, play the best high hand (the L8-H8 6).
Thank you UP84. Now I understand - I think. Interesting game.
How is the following problem solved?
There is a 0-6 (high six) and a 0-6 (low six)
Does that mean, that I have the choice of either playing 0-6 or 2-4?
My guess: best high is not weak L10-H6, therefore 0-6
Quote: charliepatrickThere is another context and that is where you have a choice how to set the tiles but keep the same totals, it is known as strengthening. An example might be how you play and hand with a H10 (5-5) and L10 (6-4) and which one to use with and L8 and 9, or L6 and 5. (Try this on /games/pai-gow-tiles/calculator/ ). In the former you set 8/High9, in the latter High5/6. link to original post
I am aware that you should not waste a high tile in a zero hand but rather strengthen the high hand. Are there any general rules for all other hands?
Your guess is correct.Quote: OKQuote: UP84No, the best high here - the 6 formed from L8-H8 - contains a Yun, which is ranked higher than a Chong. So we go through the general play progression: For playing the best low hand, is either (1) the best low strong (5 or higher)? No; or (2) Is the best high weak (lower than a 6 with H6)? No, because the 6 contains a Yun. Therefore, play the best high hand (the L8-H8 6).
Thank you UP84. Now I understand - I think. Interesting game.
How is the following problem solved?
There is a 0-6 (high six) and a 0-6 (low six)
Does that mean, that I have the choice of either playing 0-6 or 2-4?
My guess: best high is not weak L10-H6, therefore 0-6
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Actually the valid choices are between playing either the 2-4 or the L10-H6 0-6. Playing the L10-L6 is not a valid option. You may already know this, but I'll mention it here anyway for any readers new to Pai Gow...in this hand one would never play the 0-6 using the L10 and L6 because the H6 would then be "wasted" in the 0 hand by being set with the H4 (the H4 out ranks the H6). Also, in 0 hands the rank of the tiles is totally irrelevant. The Banker always wins 0 - 0 ties, regardless of the ranks of the tiles that form the 0 hands.
a) HAND 1 -- why PUSH ?
b) HAND 2 -- why player WINS ?
c) HAND 3 -- why PUSH ? I thought "YUN" higher ?
d) HAND 4 -- why PUSH ? I thought "wild six" higher ?
Thanks
The Banker always wins ties, and although it's not clear based on the screenshots, it looks like the Dealer is Banker in all these scenarios.Quote: ssho88I am new to PAI GOW TILES, could you please explain below cases ?
a) HAND 1 -- why PUSH ?
b) HAND 2 -- why player WIN ?
c) HAND 3 -- why PUSH ? I thought "YUN" higher ?
d) HAND 4 -- why PUSH ? I thought "wild six" higher ?
Tanks
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For all of these scenarios, the Player always wins the high hand because the Player's H4 pair always beats the Dealer's L4 pair. Thus the worst the Player can do here is push.
So resolving the game just involves resolving who wins the low hand. But since the point value of the Player's and Dealer's low hands are identical here, resolving the game really just involves determining which low hand has the highest ranked tile>>>If the Player has the best low hand, the Player wins both hands and thus wins the game. If the Dealer has the best low hand, of if the two low hands have the same point value and same rank high tile (tie), the dealer wins the low hand and the game is a push.
HAND 1 - Dealer, as Banker, because the two low hands are identical. PUSH
HAND 2 - Dealer loses the low hand because the Dealer's L6 ranks lower than the Player's H8. Player WIN
HAND 3 - The highest tile in both low hands is the 12 (not the YUN). Since both hands are identical, the Dealer/Banker wins the hand and the game is a PUSH
HAND 4 - Gee/Joon, when not played together as a pair, is ALWAYS the lowest ranked tile (even lower than the 5). It doesn't matter if the tile has 3 or 6 pips and it doesn't matter if it's played as a 3 or a 6, the gee joon is always ranked lowest. So, here the two low hands are identical, the Dealer/Banker wins the hand, and the game is a PUSH.
Quote: UP84The dealer always wins ties, and although it's not clear based on the screenshots, it looks like the Dealer is Banker in all these scenarios.Quote: ssho88I am new to PAI GOW TILES, could you please explain below cases ?
a) HAND 1 -- why PUSH ?
b) HAND 2 -- why player WIN ?
c) HAND 3 -- why PUSH ? I thought "YUN" higher ?
d) HAND 4 -- why PUSH ? I thought "wild six" higher ?
Tanks
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For all of these scenarios, the Player always wins the high hand because the Player's H4 pair always beats the Dealer's L4 pair. Thus the worst the Player can do here is push.
So resolving the game just involves resolving who wins the low hand. But since the point value of the Player's and Dealer's low hands are identical here, resolving the game really just involves determining which low hand has the highest ranked tile>>>If the Player has the best low hand, the Player wins both hands and thus wins the game. If the Dealer has the best low hand, of if the two low hands have the same point value and same rank high tile (tie), the dealer wins the low hand and the game is a push.
HAND 1 - Dealer, as Banker, because the two low hands are identical. PUSH
HAND 2 - Dealer loses the low hand because the Dealer's L6 ranks lower than the Player's H8. Player WIN
HAND 3 - The highest tile in both low hands is the 12 (not the YUN). Since both hands are identical, the Dealer/Banker wins the hand and the game is a PUSH
HAND 4 - Gee/Joon, when not played together as a pair, is ALWAYS the lowest ranked tile (even lower than the 5). It doesn't matter if the tile has 3 or 6 pips and it doesn't matter if it's played as a 3 or a 6, the gee joon is always ranked lowest. So, here the two low hands are identical, the Dealer/Banker wins the hand, and the game is a PUSH.
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Thanks for your explanation. I only now realise that the dealer always wins ties in PAI GOW TILES ! LOL
For HAND 3(when both low hand have same point) , ONLY(and only) compare the highest tile in both low hand? Since highest tile of both low hand is identical, no need compare SECOND tile in both low hand ?
So in general, if both low hand(or high hand) is non pair and have same point, just compare the highest tile in both hand. If the highest tile is identical/same rank, there is no need to compare SECOND tile, and the dealer always wins ! Am I correct ?
Also, if the hand for both the Player and the Banker is 0, then the Banker always wins that hand, regardless of any tile rankings.Quote: ssho88Thanks for your explanation. I only now realise that the dealer always wins ties in PAI GOW TILES ! LOL
For HAND 3(when both low hand have same point) , ONLY(and only) compare the highest tile in both low hand? Since highest tile of both low hand is identical, no need compare SECOND tile in both low hand ?
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For HAND 3, and for all hands of identical point value (except 0, where Banker always wins), only compare the highest ranking tiles in each hand. The lower ranking tiles in each hand are ignored when resolving ties.
Quote: UP84Your guess is correct.
Actually the valid choices are between playing either the 2-4 or the L10-H6 0-6. Playing the L10-L6 is not a valid option. You may already know this, but I'll mention it here anyway for any readers new to Pai this hand one would never play the 0-6 using the L10 and L6 because the H6 would then be "wasted" in the 0 hand by being set with the H4 (the H4 out ranks the H6). Also, in 0 hands the rank of the tiles is totally irrelevant. The Banker always wins 0 - 0 ties, regardless of the ranks of the tiles that form the 0 hands.
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With some hands it is obvious what should be played. But, are there any general rules as to when to strengthen the low hand and when to strengthen the high hand?
Quote: OKQuote: UP84Your guess is correct.
Actually the valid choices are between playing either the 2-4 or the L10-H6 0-6. Playing the L10-L6 is not a valid option. You may already know this, but I'll mention it here anyway for any readers new to Pai this hand one would never play the 0-6 using the L10 and L6 because the H6 would then be "wasted" in the 0 hand by being set with the H4 (the H4 out ranks the H6). Also, in 0 hands the rank of the tiles is totally irrelevant. The Banker always wins 0 - 0 ties, regardless of the ranks of the tiles that form the 0 hands.
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With some hands it is obvious what should be played. But, are there any general rules as to when to strengthen the low hand and when to strengthen the high hand?
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Absolutely. You tend to play teen or day 9’s when possible over teen or day 8’s. If you have a pair of teens or days you will tend to strengthen the low hand instead of playing the pair. (There are obvious exceptions). You won’t weaken your high hand to increase your low hand from 0 to 2. So many more specifics…
Essentially, your question is…. how do I split my tiles!
Quote: SOOPOOQuote: OKQuote: UP84Your guess is correct.
Actually the valid choices are between playing either the 2-4 or the L10-H6 0-6. Playing the L10-L6 is not a valid option. You may already know this, but I'll mention it here anyway for any readers new to Pai this hand one would never play the 0-6 using the L10 and L6 because the H6 would then be "wasted" in the 0 hand by being set with the H4 (the H4 out ranks the H6). Also, in 0 hands the rank of the tiles is totally irrelevant. The Banker always wins 0 - 0 ties, regardless of the ranks of the tiles that form the 0 hands.
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With some hands it is obvious what should be played. But, are there any general rules as to when to strengthen the low hand and when to strengthen the high hand?
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Absolutely. You tend to play teen or day 9’s when possible over teen or day 8’s. If you have a pair of teens or days you will tend to strengthen the low hand instead of playing the pair. (There are obvious exceptions). You won’t weaken your high hand to increase your low hand from 0 to 2. So many more specifics…
Essentially, your question is…. how do I split my tiles!
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That is not what I meant. I do know how to split tiles. At times a hand has a L6 and a H6 for example. My question was, where do I put the L6 and where do I put the H6. Which hand do I strengthen? The low hand or the high hand? Are there any general rules for this?
Quote: OKQuote: SOOPOOQuote: OKQuote: UP84Your guess is correct.
Actually the valid choices are between playing either the 2-4 or the L10-H6 0-6. Playing the L10-L6 is not a valid option. You may already know this, but I'll mention it here anyway for any readers new to Pai this hand one would never play the 0-6 using the L10 and L6 because the H6 would then be "wasted" in the 0 hand by being set with the H4 (the H4 out ranks the H6). Also, in 0 hands the rank of the tiles is totally irrelevant. The Banker always wins 0 - 0 ties, regardless of the ranks of the tiles that form the 0 hands.
link to original post
With some hands it is obvious what should be played. But, are there any general rules as to when to strengthen the low hand and when to strengthen the high hand?
link to original post
Absolutely. You tend to play teen or day 9’s when possible over teen or day 8’s. If you have a pair of teens or days you will tend to strengthen the low hand instead of playing the pair. (There are obvious exceptions). You won’t weaken your high hand to increase your low hand from 0 to 2. So many more specifics…
Essentially, your question is…. how do I split my tiles!
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That is not what I meant. I do know how to split tiles. At times a hand has a L6 and a H6 for example. My question was, where do I put the L6 and where do I put the H6. Which hand do I strengthen? The low hand or the high hand? Are there any general rules for this?
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In general, you would put the high 6 in the low hand. I’m pretty sure if you look on the sister site, WizardofOdds.com, you will find what you are looking for. I practiced many hours oh that site. It is now second nature what to do on over 99% of the hands. I think there are only 3280(?) possible 4 tile combinations. That’s not too many to not know exactly what’s best to do on any one of those possible combinations.
As far as I can see (I've transcribed these from a spreasheet trying to find the patterns, so please don't take it as gospel)...
If you have a Teen or Day (or both)
(i) you make better Hi if you can make Hi9 or better
(ii) you make better Hi with 7/8 3/8 2/8 or 2/6
(iii) you make better Lo with 6/8 6/7 3/7 2/7 2/3
If you don't have a Teen or Day, some are ambigous but
(i) you make better Hi if you have made 8/9 4/9 3/9 2/9 1/9 0/9 4/7 3/7 0/7 (but not 1/7) 3/5
(ii) you make better Lo if you have 7/8 5/8 5/6 1/6 4/5 1/5 1/4 2/3
Ones not given, it depends.
The problem one has with tiles is you probably can't keep all the correct decisions in your head, so need to develop some simple rules. Hence why there's a simple strategy on WoOdds.
Edit: changed "best" to "better" rather than suggesting you changed from making, say, best Hi