Baccarat EV

So I live near a casino that gives you a $30 food voucher for one hour of baccarat play. The lowest table minimum is $15 a hand. Right off the bat this seems pretty decent if you only bet banker and want to gamble for “free”, especially if they’re dealing to a crowded table very slowly.

Where it gets interesting and where I need some help is, this casino allows you to bet banker and player simultaneously as long as one is $5 or more than the other.

Is it better for EV to just do $15 banker, or $20 banker and $15 player? I know with craps, betting Don’t and Pass at the same time just doubles the amount you lose but baccarat seems different.


In addition, this casino doesn’t charge commission for amounts less than $5, so you can bet $19 to win $18.25. Is it better to bet $19 than $15 in this case?

Thanks!

Quote: Theguyoverthere

So I live near a casino that gives you a $30 food voucher for one hour of baccarat play. The lowest table minimum is $15 a hand. Right off the bat this seems pretty decent if you only bet banker and want to gamble for “free”, especially if they’re dealing to a crowded table very slowly.

Where it gets interesting and where I need some help is, this casino allows you to bet banker and player simultaneously as long as one is $5 or more than the other.

Is it better for EV to just do $15 banker, or $20 banker and $15 player? I know with craps, betting Don’t and Pass at the same time just doubles the amount you lose but baccarat seems different.


In addition, this casino doesn’t charge commission for amounts less than $5, so you can bet $19 to win $18.25. Is it better to bet $19 than $15 in this case?

Thanks!
link to original post

When bet $19 to win $18.25, house edge is -0.6%, 19(-0.6) > 15(-1.058), it is better to bet $19 a hand.

Assuming 60 hands per hour, your winning per hour = 30 - 19(0.006)(60) = $23.16

Interesting that they don't charge commission on a Bank win for amounts less than $5. It is in fact the complete opposite at Resorts World Vegas, where in the high limit salon their electronic system rounds up any bet to the nearest hundred dollars, and then calculates commission. So a winning Bank bet of $105. gets $10. commission deducted from it. A Bank bet of $19. (or $11.) if they even allowed such a low bet (they do not in high limit) would have $5. commission deducted from it at RW.

Their dealers alert players who place any multiple other than of 100 on the Bank to this routine.

Quote: MDawg

Interesting that they don't charge commission on a Bank win for amounts less than $5. It is in fact the complete opposite at Resorts World Vegas, where in the high limit salon their electronic system rounds up any bet to the nearest hundred dollars, and then calculates commission. So a winning Bank bet of $105. gets $10. commission deducted from it. A Bank bet of $19. (or $11.) if they even allowed such a low bet (they do not in high limit) would have $5. commission deducted from it at RW.

Their dealers alert players who place any multiple other than of 100 on the Bank to this routine.
link to original post

I have only seen that done in Los Angeles.

Sounds criminal to me lol but I imagine they found some regulations that allows it.

Everywhere else I have seen it simply calculated.

For example a $980 wager would return $1911 (I accidentally put the wrong amount once and wound up with a $980 wager on banker so I remember what I got back lol).

So basically my $980 wager x2 -5% comm= $1911

Yes, Resorts World Vegas really does round up to the nearest hundred when calculating Bank commission in high limit.

But then casinos like Wynn and Venetian, in high limit anyway (which is the only place I play), don't bother to charge commission under five dollars because there are no dollar lammers for commission (smallest lammer unit is 5.). So if you bet say $1025 at Wynn on Bank and win, the commission tossed in the tray will be 50. based on $1000. So in general those casinos round down then to the nearest hundred.

At Palms I believe they use lammers but actually do have dollar lammers so they round to the nearest dollar owed of commission. I believe they round down.

At Station Casinos, Treasure Island, and Circa, they use actual casino chips plus fifty cent pieces and quarters to calculate the commission, so at those casinos they are able to calculate commission to the nearest 25 cents, but again, I believe they round down. When I end up with a fifty cent piece I tend to pocket it just for fun. I have a number of these in a bag.

Quote: Theguyoverthere

So I live near a casino that gives you a $30 food voucher for one hour of baccarat play....

Is it better for EV to just do $15 banker, or $20 banker and $15 player?
link to original post

Your expected loss will TEND TOWARDS the product of total action and house edge. So bet each side and your total action will be more or less twice as much and your total loss will tend to be more or less twice as much.
Betting both sides will reduce the variance in your outcome quite dramatically.

Quote: MDawg

Yes, Resorts World Vegas really does round up to the nearest hundred when calculating Bank commission in high limit.

But then casinos like Wynn and Venetian, in high limit anyway (which is the only place I play), don't bother to charge commission under five dollars because there are no dollar lammers for commission (smallest lammer unit is 5.). So if you bet say $1025 at Wynn on Bank and win, the commission tossed in the tray will be 50. based on $1000. So in general those casinos round down then to the nearest hundred.

At Palms I believe they use lammers but actually do have dollar lammers so they round to the nearest dollar owed of commission. I believe they round down.

At Station Casinos, Treasure Island, and Circa, they use actual casino chips plus fifty cent pieces and quarters to calculate the commission, so at those casinos they are able to calculate commission to the nearest 25 cents, but again, I believe they round down. When I end up with a fifty cent piece I tend to pocket it just for fun. I have a number of these in a bag.
link to original post

Are we discussing an electronic version or live dealers?

I can see live dealers not wanting to do all that math.

But I thought the original talk was about Electronic Baccarat. The math is easy for the computer.

Quote: Theguyoverthere

Is it better for EV to just do $15 banker, or $20 banker and $15 player? I know with craps, betting Don’t and Pass at the same time just doubles the amount you lose but baccarat seems different.

For all practical purposes, that’s identical to simultaneously betting pass and DP in craps. You”l lose a little over 1% except when there’s a tie. Extremely low variance

It’s also virtually identical to simultaneously betting black and red in European roulette.

But what’s the point of giving up the house edge with minimal variance. Variance is what you’re paying for

Quote: Ace2

Quote: Theguyoverthere

Is it better for EV to just do $15 banker, or $20 banker and $15 player? I know with craps, betting Don’t and Pass at the same time just doubles the amount you lose but baccarat seems different.

For all practical purposes, that’s identical to simultaneously betting pass and DP in craps. You”l lose a little over 1% except when there’s a tie. Extremely low variance

It’s also virtually identical to simultaneously betting black and red in European roulette.

But what’s the point of giving up the house edge with minimal variance. Variance is what you’re paying for
link to original post

To get the food voucher, although betting that way you are going to be exposed to the risk that “management reserves all rights” on you.

Thanks for all the replies all.. to be clear, does betting both sides raise, lower, or stay the same for the expected value lost? I know variance goes way down but am I losing more, less, or the same per hour?

Quote: Theguyoverthere

Thanks for all the replies all.. to be clear, does betting both sides raise, lower, or stay the same for the expected value lost? I know variance goes way down but am I losing more, less, or the same per hour?
link to original post

Tend to Lose twice as much by betting both sides!
Your requirement is 'An hour of play' Say you can fit in X hands,
You have the choice X Bets of table min on one side or X Bets of table min on both sides of the game.
As already explained, X bets of table min will have half the expected loss of X bets of 2 times table min.

Quote: MDawg

Interesting that they don't charge commission on a Bank win for amounts less than $5. It is in fact the complete opposite at Resorts World Vegas, where in the high limit salon their electronic system rounds up any bet to the nearest hundred dollars, and then calculates commission.

Washington state is another jurisdiction where commission in baccarat can never exceed 5% by law, hence the rounding down.

Quote: Theguyoverthere

Thanks for all the replies all.. to be clear, does betting both sides raise, lower, or stay the same for the expected value lost? I know variance goes way down but am I losing more, less, or the same per hour?
link to original post

Betting banker and player, at $15 each side:

The hands could tie, and both wagers push.
The player could win, you get $30 and try again.
The banker could win, you get $28.50 and try again.

I figure your $30 free food voucher costs you around $42, plus tips.

edit: I just realized I miscalculated the commission rate. I still don't think this is a good play.

Personally, I wouldn't be inclined to assign a $30 food voucher a value of $30. I'd assign it equivalent value to the cheapest possible meal I could get elsewhere.

Actually, anytime I am doing land casino stuff for my purposes, I give food comps a cash value of $0.00.

In Baccarat, betting simultaneously on both banker and player with a $5 difference typically reduces the house edge compared to betting solely on banker. As for the commission, betting $19 to win $18.25 is better than $15, as it avoids the commission fee, improving expected value. Have you tried this strategy at the casino?

Quote: stephanianooh

In Baccarat, betting simultaneously on both banker and player with a $5 difference typically reduces the house edge compared to betting solely on banker.
link to original post

That doesn't sound at all right. How can it be so?
You are combining a bet with HE of 1.06 and one of HE 1.24 and saying you get an edge of less than 1.06????
I doubt that is true.