BroPesci
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Gialmere
June 13th, 2022 at 1:05:53 PM permalink
Long time lurker here but I don't see this game posted anywhere so I figured I would make an account and ask about it...

Just got back from a business trip in Biloxi and my wife and I had a ton of fun playing this game. It was at the Golden Nugget. The felt and rack card said Three Card Sabotage but the flag on the table said Three Card Poker. I was calling it "Three Card Poker on steroids". Basically 3CP but the dealer gets 4 cards. After the dealer makes his hand there are 2 sabotage cards that will remove any matching cards from the dealers hand. The dealer always qualifies and the players can bet 1x or 2x the ante on the Play circle. The ante bonuses were much better than 3CP as well. I think these were the only differences. The sabotage cards really are what made the game fun. I was surprised at how often the dealers hands got wrecked by them. It was the loudest cheering i have ever seen at a table game. Very streaky game though.

Anyways, I googled the game and the only thing that came up was a generic page on the Shuffle Master website. I was wondering if anyone knew of any casinos in the Northeast US that had it? The dealers said it was new so there might not be that many casinos that had it. Figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.
gordonm888
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June 13th, 2022 at 2:10:01 PM permalink
Quote: BroPesci

Long time lurker here but I don't see this game posted anywhere so I figured I would make an account and ask about it...

Just got back from a business trip in Biloxi and my wife and I had a ton of fun playing this game. It was at the Golden Nugget. The felt and rack card said Three Card Sabotage but the flag on the table said Three Card Poker. I was calling it "Three Card Poker on steroids". Basically 3CP but the dealer gets 4 cards. After the dealer makes his hand there are 2 sabotage cards that will remove any matching cards from the dealers hand. The dealer always qualifies and the players can bet 1x or 2x the ante on the Play circle. The ante bonuses were much better than 3CP as well. I think these were the only differences. The sabotage cards really are what made the game fun. I was surprised at how often the dealers hands got wrecked by them. It was the loudest cheering i have ever seen at a table game. Very streaky game though.

Anyways, I googled the game and the only thing that came up was a generic page on the Shuffle Master website. I was wondering if anyone knew of any casinos in the Northeast US that had it? The dealers said it was new so there might not be that many casinos that had it. Figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.
link to original post



Fascinating. Obviously "Dealer has 4 cards" is an enormous dealer advantage and the sabotage cards and No DNQ are meant to compensate. I imagine that the strategy is completely different than 3CP.

Just checking: the sabotage cards will remove any cards with matching rank?

And if dealer has A222 and the sabotage cards are 2-3, the dealer only has a one card hand, an Ace-high. Would that beat a player's K-High hand such as KQ7?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
BroPesci
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June 13th, 2022 at 2:49:58 PM permalink
You have it correct. High card still plays. There was an instance where one of the players had a third card and the dealer didn't and the player won. I think dealer had like K-10 and the player had K-10-4

It was daunting seeing the dealer with 4 cards at first but it really didn't feel like an advantage once we played for a bit. When the dealer had a straight or a flush it got nuked into like a 9 high it felt like most of the time. Thats when the table would really get loud.

One guy swears he had the strategy down. He played Q-8 for 1x and A-10 or better for 2x. The Q-8 felt about right but i played a pair or better for 2x. The game was super fun, my wife really wants to play again but we aren't going back to Biloxi anytime soon lol
Gialmere
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June 13th, 2022 at 4:02:13 PM permalink


Yeah, can't find much. The Mississippi Gaming Commission approved it in January 2022.

What's that other side bet? A progressive jackpot?

Did you bring home one of the rack cards?

It's a clever gimmick. Lots of suspense.
Last edited by: Gialmere on Jun 13, 2022
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
BroPesci
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June 13th, 2022 at 6:06:42 PM permalink
The only side bet was a normal Pair Plus. I think the ante bonus was straight 2-1, trips 5-1, SF 10-1 and Mini Royal 50-1. It pays win or lose.

My wife grabbed a rack card. I will find out if it made it home and I will share it tomorrow if it did
BroPesci
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June 15th, 2022 at 12:24:31 PM permalink
I found the rack card but it appears i am not allowed to post a link or image. If you replace the space with a . below u can see the rack card. Sorry it got a bit mangled in our luggage

imgur com/a/HKRpFQL
Gialmere
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June 15th, 2022 at 12:32:27 PM permalink
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
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June 15th, 2022 at 3:01:36 PM permalink
Quote: BroPesci

I found the rack card but it appears i am not allowed to post a link or image. If you replace the space with a . below u can see the rack card. Sorry it got a bit mangled in our luggage

imgur com/a/HKRpFQL
link to original post



The forum's in-built image hosting ("Insert My Picture", down below the cancel button) should work (to the best of my knowledge), although there are some file size restrictions and refused uploads do not come with a handy error message.

Due to the file size limits, cropping and resizing are likely necessary for any image captured with a modern camera like a cell phone.

External links and images are blocked for new members until good standing is established, as a spam prevention measure.

Welcome to the forum. Glad to have you. -D
May the cards fall in your favor.
charliepatrick
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June 15th, 2022 at 3:57:25 PM permalink
I've had a very quick look at this, so haven't checked my logic/figures, but ignoring the Player's cards the Dealer gets
Pair or Better : 44.91%
A-high : 14.49%
K-high : 11.71%
Q-high or lower : 28.89%
So it looks as if your fold/call cut-off might be somewhere in Kxx, and your big raise is with a good Ace or any pair or better.
gordonm888
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June 15th, 2022 at 5:24:49 PM permalink
For basic strategy, I am currently getting:

Raise 4: AQ2 or higher

Raise 2: K97 Or Higher

Fold: K-9-6 or lower

I still have a bug relating to when the sabotage cards are paired and match a dealer card. When I fix it, my recommended strategy may change a skootch.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Jun 15, 2022
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
drmario
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June 15th, 2022 at 6:32:35 PM permalink
Raise 4?
gordonm888
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June 15th, 2022 at 7:11:30 PM permalink
Whoops, I mis-typed as I had just read the thread on Heads-Up Hold'em.

I meant to label the strategy decisions this way:

For basic strategy, I am currently getting:

Raise 2: AQ2 or higher

Raise 1: K97 Or Higher

Fold: K-9-6 or lower

I still have a bug relating to when the sabotage cards are paired and match a dealer card. When I fix it, my recommended strategy may change a skootch.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
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June 15th, 2022 at 11:20:01 PM permalink
I agree that it would be in the area of AQx.
Again ignoring the Player's cards, which would have a slightly impact on the boundary as it would reduce the chances of the Dealer getting A-high, I get the boundary is AQ5. Chances of AQ6+ = 49.82% AQ4- = 49.93%.

Added: I'm guessing when the Player's cards are considered it will be similar to other poker games. In those cases when you have a card, that reduces the chances of the Dealer getting one, while if you don't then the chances for the Dealer is better. Thus I can imagine the same logic might apply here; so you raise any AQx (as you have one of the Queens) and only call with AJx (as the Dealer has more chance to beat you with an AQ).
Last edited by: charliepatrick on Jun 16, 2022
gordonm888
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June 16th, 2022 at 1:13:37 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

I agree that it would be in the area of AQx.
Again ignoring the Player's cards, which would have a slightly impact on the boundary as it would reduce the chances of the Dealer getting A-high, I get the boundary is AQ5. Chances of AQ6+ = 49.82% AQ4- = 49.93%.

Added: I'm guessing when the Player's cards are considered it will be similar to other poker games. In those cases when you have a card, that reduces the chances of the Dealer getting one, while if you don't then the chances for the Dealer is better. Thus I can imagine the same logic might apply here; so you raise any AQx (as you have one of the Queens) and only call with AJx (as the Dealer has more chance to beat you with an AQ).
link to original post



I have a composition dependent spreadsheet. The removal of the Ace in AQx will increase the EV of AQ2 by more than 4 percentage points (i.e., the win percentage of AQ2 goes up by about 0.7%). Because you are reducing the probability of dealer's AKx and AQx hands that you will lose to.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gordonm888
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June 16th, 2022 at 1:13:40 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

I agree that it would be in the area of AQx.
Again ignoring the Player's cards, which would have a slightly impact on the boundary as it would reduce the chances of the Dealer getting A-high, I get the boundary is AQ5. Chances of AQ6+ = 49.82% AQ4- = 49.93%.

Added: I'm guessing when the Player's cards are considered it will be similar to other poker games. In those cases when you have a card, that reduces the chances of the Dealer getting one, while if you don't then the chances for the Dealer is better. Thus I can imagine the same logic might apply here; so you raise any AQx (as you have one of the Queens) and only call with AJx (as the Dealer has more chance to beat you with an AQ).
link to original post



I have a composition dependent spreadsheet. The removal of the Ace in AQx will increase the EV of AQ2 by more than 4 percentage points (i.e., the win percentage of AQ2 goes up by about 0.7%). Because you are reducing the probability of dealer's AKx and AQx hands that you will lose to.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gordonm888
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June 16th, 2022 at 8:49:44 PM permalink
Found the glitch in my spreadsheet, and it should be accurate now.

Three Card Sabotage Basic Strategy
Raise-2 on AJT or Higher.
Raise-1 on K94 to AJ9
Fold on K93 or lower.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Jun 16, 2022
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
camapl
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June 17th, 2022 at 1:11:12 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Found the glitch in my spreadsheet, and it should be accurate now.

Three Card Sabotage Basic Strategy
Raise-2 on AJT or Higher.
Raise-1 on K94 to AJ9
Fold on K93 or lower.
link to original post



That’s awesome that you’ve worked out the strategy! Any chance that the house edge is an “easy calculation” from here? Just curious…
Expectation is the root of all heartache.
gordonm888
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June 17th, 2022 at 7:43:03 PM permalink
Quote: camapl


That’s awesome that you’ve worked out the strategy! Any chance that the house edge is an “easy calculation” from here? Just curious…
link to original post



First we don't yet know what the bonus payouts are for the high hands.
Second, there are two ways to calculate the house edge, both of which will be much easier now that we have defined the strategy rules:

- a loop code that runs through every combination of player, dealer and sabotage cards. (This is a 9 card game, which is not too bad although the UTH game that Teliot was evaluating in another thread was also 9 cards and that looping code run was stated to take about 4 days.)
- a simulation, just run 100M or 1B hands and accumulate statistics.

There are multiple members who could do either or both but they need to have an interest. The sabotage cards are a novel innovation (which I kinda like) but it does make algorithms for automated hand evaluation a bit more difficult because the dealer's hand can range from 0 to 4 cards.

We'll see if anyone steps up.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
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June 18th, 2022 at 2:20:18 AM permalink
^ I agree it's a lot of work although in this case, unlike UTH, there's only one decision point for the Player.

The Player's hands could be simplified to types of hands (e.g. AsKsJs, AsKsJh, AsKhJs, AsKhJh, AsKhJd, with appropriate factors, to cover all the AKJ possibilities).

But then I'd go onto looping all 52/51/50/49 remaining cards, ignoring any scenarios with ones already held by the player... (while this is longer than working out the types of hands the dealer can make, it's less error prone). I think at the knockout stage one may be able to work out the chances of matching cards rather than looping, but again it might be easier just to loop.

(If I wasn't busy working on a Blackjack project I might have looked into this in more detail!)
gordonm888
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June 18th, 2022 at 5:47:11 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

^ I agree it's a lot of work although in this case, unlike UTH, there's only one decision point for the Player.

The Player's hands could be simplified to types of hands (e.g. AsKsJs, AsKsJh, AsKhJs, AsKhJh, AsKhJd, with appropriate factors, to cover all the AKJ possibilities).

But then I'd go onto looping all 52/51/50/49 remaining cards, ignoring any scenarios with ones already held by the player... (while this is longer than working out the types of hands the dealer can make, it's less error prone). I think at the knockout stage one may be able to work out the chances of matching cards rather than looping, but again it might be easier just to loop.

(If I wasn't busy working on a Blackjack project I might have looked into this in more detail!)
link to original post



Charlie, I agree with everything you say. As you state, there are indeed ways, such as suit folding, to somewhat simplify the House Edge calculation (almost all of which I did indeed incorporate into my composition-dependent spreadsheet to evaluate KISSC hand decisions.) Having said all that, it is still a considerable undertaking. Other than Wizard and JB, I can think of 8 forum members* off the top of my head who I personally know are adept and efficient at doing loop codes or simulations for (non-BJ) table games. However, some (but not all) of those people may be accustomed to charging fees and/or have various terms and conditions for performing analyses.

My point, though, is that game strategy optimization and House Edge calculations for non-BJ games involve a considerable amount of work requiring considerable niche expertise, and that not everyone gives it away for free -i.e., just for the joy of doing calculations and for the joy of being helpful.

* BTW, there may be dozens of forum members whom I am not aware of who routinely do these type of looping code or monte carlo simulation calculations for non-BJ table games. Because, obviously, some WOV forum members choose not to advertise their capabilities for various reasons! And because I certainly don't know everyone and everything.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
TinMan
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June 19th, 2022 at 4:20:26 PM permalink
It may only be me, but I find the description of the game on the card to not be the clearest. As written, it suggests that the dealer identifies their best 3CP hand and THEN does the sabotage process. To me, that means if the dealer has KK22, they would choose KK2. Then if the sabotage includes a K, then the dealer would discard KK and only have 2 remaining. But it seems like people here have assumed that in that case, the dealer would discard the KK and play 22. That is, the sabotage is done first and then the dealer’s hand is set from the remaining cards. I assume this second case is the correct one, but the card is poorly written.
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JoeTheDragon
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June 20th, 2022 at 5:41:21 PM permalink
what happens if all dealer cards are wiped out?
gordonm888
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June 20th, 2022 at 9:46:42 PM permalink
Quote: JoeTheDragon

what happens if all dealer cards are wiped out?
link to original post



In my spreadsheet analysis, I assumed that if all dealer cards are eliminated by the sabotage cards that the dealer's hand loses to any and every player hand.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gordonm888
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June 20th, 2022 at 9:46:47 PM permalink
Quote: JoeTheDragon

what happens if all dealer cards are wiped out?
link to original post



In my spreadsheet analysis, I assumed that if all dealer cards are eliminated by the sabotage cards that the dealer's hand loses to any and every player hand.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
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July 2nd, 2022 at 8:30:08 PM permalink
I've started looking at this again and am wondering about the calling range for x1. It's much too early here so please check my logic!

With regular 3CP you raise when there's about a 33% chance of winning, the logic being you are risking losing £2 2/3 vs winning £1 1/3 (as most the time your win will be DNQ). Also -2*(2/3)+1*(1/3)=-1.

However in this game if you did win, since the Dealer always qualifies you would be winning £2 not £1. Thus I get it that you would call if your chances were 25% or better. -2*(3/4)+2*(1/4)=-1.

Thus I think you call Q87 or rainbow Q86. I agree with AJT for call x2.
P: As Jh Td V: 131009 Win: 105170823 Tie: 507930 Lose: 104078487 EV x1: 0.010415240 EV x2: 0.015622860
P: As Jh Th V: 131009 Win: 105054667 Tie: 485850 Lose: 104216723 EV x1: 0.007989655 EV x2: 0.011984483
P: As Js Th V: 131009 Win: 105057642 Tie: 485850 Lose: 104213748 EV x1: 0.008046387 EV x2: 0.012069581
P: Ah Js Th V: 131009 Win: 105060617 Tie: 485850 Lose: 104210773 EV x1: 0.008103120 EV x2: 0.012154679
P: As Jh 9d V: 131008 Win: 104602772 Tie: 507930 Lose: 104646538 EV x1: -0.000417301 EV x2: -0.000625952
P: As Jh 9h V: 131008 Win: 104464659 Tie: 485850 Lose: 104806731 EV x1: -0.003261599 EV x2: -0.004892398
P: As Js 9h V: 131008 Win: 104514523 Tie: 485850 Lose: 104756867 EV x1: -0.002310709 EV x2: -0.003466064
P: Ah Js 9h V: 131008 Win: 104495541 Tie: 485850 Lose: 104775849 EV x1: -0.002672690 EV x2: -0.004009034

P: Qs 8h 7d V: 110706 Win: 52677536 Tie: 339720 Lose: 156739984 EV x1: -0.992217937 EV x2: -1.488326906
P: Qs 8h 7h V: 110706 Win: 52608269 Tie: 325200 Lose: 156823771 EV x1: -0.993677281 EV x2: -1.490515922
P: Qs 8s 7h V: 110706 Win: 52627251 Tie: 325200 Lose: 156804789 EV x1: -0.993315301 EV x2: -1.489972952
P: Qh 8s 7h V: 110706 Win: 52630226 Tie: 325200 Lose: 156801814 EV x1: -0.993258569 EV x2: -1.489887853
P: Qs 8h 6d V: 110705 Win: 52306413 Tie: 339720 Lose: 157111107 EV x1: -0.999295128 EV x2: -1.498942692
P: Qs 8h 6h V: 110705 Win: 52221139 Tie: 325200 Lose: 157210901 EV x1: -1.001059720 EV x2: -1.501589580
P: Qs 8s 6h V: 110705 Win: 52272135 Tie: 325200 Lose: 157159905 EV x1: -1.000087244 EV x2: -1.500130866
P: Qh 8s 6h V: 110705 Win: 52262078 Tie: 325200 Lose: 157169962 EV x1: -1.000279027 EV x2: -1.500418541
charliepatrick
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July 3rd, 2022 at 1:02:02 PM permalink
^ Running a few simulations, I haven't checked the code except the results of the simple case gets the same EVs for the boundary plays, I'm getting quite a high House Edge (over 7%) for this assuming the Dealer picks their best hand after sabotage and the normal UK 1/4/5 bonus payments.

If the Dealer has to pick their best hand before the sabotage cards, and there's still the ability to Raise x2, the game seems to be slightly in the Player's favour! So I think that confirms the sabotage should happen first.
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July 3rd, 2022 at 6:18:03 PM permalink
Ugh. You are correct. After all my elegant calculations I had a simple basic error in my EV algorithm, I was not correctly varying the size of the Raise bet.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gordonm888
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July 3rd, 2022 at 6:18:10 PM permalink
Ugh. You are correct. After all my elegant calculations I had a simple basic error in my EV algorithm, I was not correctly varying the size of the Raise bet.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gordonm888
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July 3rd, 2022 at 6:18:10 PM permalink
Ugh. You are correct. After all my elegant calculations I had a simple basic error in my EV algorithm, I was not correctly varying the size of the Raise bet.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
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July 4th, 2022 at 12:26:37 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

...simulations...a high House Edge (over 7%)...UK 1/4/5 bonus payments...


Quote: BroPesci

...The ante bonuses were much better than 3CP as well...


Seeing the OP's comment, this may be how the game gets back to a reasonable House Edge. For instance 2/1 for Straights and 10/1 for Trips and StFlushes gives ...
Hands:
1 000 000 000
Win:
397 312 330
Lose:
601 674 650
Tie:
1 013 020
Fold
358 362 671
Win:
913 878 163
Lose:
680 333 762
Tie:
688 546
Proft/Loss
- 124 818 270
Bonuses
Straight 2/1
65 152 492
Trips 10/1
23 551 890
SF 10/1
21 734 620
Profit/Loss
- 14 379 268
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