Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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October 14th, 2022 at 9:13:18 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

Quote: miplet

You just have to do the hands that are normally 4x. The EV of the preflop checked hands are the same.
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`
Yes but how much is your loss in value if when you have the advantage, you are only allowed to bet 3X instead of 4X?
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That's easy. Just go to the WoO page and multiply each 4x win (return) by 0.75, then sum up all of the differences and that is the loss to EV. After that, just work it into the HE and EoR.

ADDED: Or multiply them by 0.25 and just sum that up, saves the subtracting step.
Last edited by: Mission146 on Oct 14, 2022
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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October 14th, 2022 at 9:15:10 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

practicing on free UTH game on WoO. site. Got a RF!! odds about 30000-1 no?
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Closer to 31k, but yes. It's the same probability as getting one in seven stud would be.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
ThisIsMyJam
ThisIsMyJam
Joined: Oct 22, 2019
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October 14th, 2022 at 9:32:48 AM permalink
Quote: JimRockford

Maybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Donít get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY donít like that you canít check your hole cards after the flop. I donít see why I canít confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
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What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
JimRockford
JimRockford
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October 14th, 2022 at 9:36:06 AM permalink
Quote: ThisIsMyJam

Quote: JimRockford

Maybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Donít get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY donít like that you canít check your hole cards after the flop. I donít see why I canít confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
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What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
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I havenít played in years, but that was the rule at the Mirage the last time I played. Is that not standard?
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." - Isaac Newton
unJon
unJon
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October 14th, 2022 at 9:36:11 AM permalink
Quote: ThisIsMyJam

Quote: JimRockford

Maybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Donít get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY donít like that you canít check your hole cards after the flop. I donít see why I canít confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
link to original post



What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
link to original post



Iíve never had that issue. I always recheck.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Joeman
Joeman
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October 14th, 2022 at 9:57:42 AM permalink
Quote: JimRockford

Quote: ThisIsMyJam

Quote: JimRockford

Maybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Donít get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY donít like that you canít check your hole cards after the flop. I donít see why I canít confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
link to original post



What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
link to original post


I havenít played in years, but that was the rule at the Mirage the last time I played. Is that not standard?
link to original post

I can't speak to the procedures at the Mirage specifically, but at the other casinos I have played UTH, I have never been told I can't look at my cards at any point before I make my Play wager (or fold). I will typically hold my cards (usually on edge so that the faces are visible to me) from the time they are pushed to me until I make a Play wager or fold.

Now, after you put out the Play wager, yeah they don't want you touching the cards.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
aceside
aceside
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October 14th, 2022 at 11:35:43 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Okay -- I'm shutting down the code (for now). Just too much to let it keep running. I used to have a second super fast Ubuntu computer that I dedicated to these things, but with only my main computer running it just is so slow. Here are the results so far, you can see that there are some changes to the 4x strategy. For example, checking Q6s, Q7s and Q8o. The first raise with a Queen is Q8s.
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This part is consistent with Wizardís basic strategy:
For UTH, 4x bet these hands: Q6s, Q7s and Q8o;
For HUH, 3x bet these hands: Q8s, Q9s, and Q10o.

However, if you use the HUH rules (which include a bad beat rule) for this calculation, will the 3x bet hands still be the same?
Wizard
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Wizard
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October 14th, 2022 at 4:25:24 PM permalink
There seems to be conflicting information if there are other rule changes too, as in Head Up Hold 'em.

Can I get at least two people to say this is pure UTH with only the 4x lowered to 3x on the pre-flop raise?
ďExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.Ē -- Carl Sagan
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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October 14th, 2022 at 5:06:06 PM permalink
I can back up DeMango that SP deals or dealt a game labeled as UTH (no bad beat bonus) with no 4x option. It was several months before DeMango posted, but I observed a dealer exposing 1 dealer card on the game, sat to play, played one hand and one hand only after not being allowed to 4x it pre-flop, on UTH.

I am absolutely 99.996% sure the table was labeled as UTH because I would have had no problem being restricted to 3x if it had actually been HUN.

Believe they also have HUH on a separate table donít recall but this was certainly not a HUH table or Texas Holdem Bonus. Dealer/supervisor said theyíd changed the rule several months prior, so that timeline would likely make it near a year at this point. Note that the dealer/supervisor mentioned it had been CHANGED, so again not HUH.
Last edited by: mcallister3200 on Oct 14, 2022
Wizard
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Wizard
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October 14th, 2022 at 5:42:36 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

I can back up DeMango that SP deals or dealt a game labeled as UTH (no bad beat bonus) with no 4x option.
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Thank you. With that confirmation, I updated my UTH program to have a 3x pre-flop raise.

To re-run every hand would take about five days to cycle through. However, thanks to Miplet's observation, I need to only run those hands that already a big raise. Currently I'm working on the 33 to AA pairs. I'll keep you posted.

For now, in digging around for my material on UTH, I find I at least analyzed the situation where the player plays the optimal 4x raise strategy, but on a 3x game. There the house edge (based on the Ante only) is 9.86% and the Element of Risk is 2.61%. So, this looks to be a very bad rule. Of course, strategy changes will bring down those numbers, but I still expect it to increase the house edge to about 5%.
ďExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.Ē -- Carl Sagan

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