UTH Question
Quote: JimRockfordQuote: ThisIsMyJamQuote: JimRockfordMaybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Don’t get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY don’t like that you can’t check your hole cards after the flop. I don’t see why I can’t confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
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What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
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I haven’t played in years, but that was the rule at the Mirage the last time I played. Is that not standard?
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That's definitely not standard. I've never seen it. Do you recall if you played with more than one dealer? If just the one, it's possible the dealer didn't know proper game play. That does happen.
I play UTH heavily and always keep my cards in my hand until I play or fold. Once you play some casinos won't let you look at your cards anymore whereas others don't seem to care if you take a peek.
The game and payouts are the same on the Ante, blind and play bets.
The only difference occurs is in the scoring:
if the dealer doesn't open with a pair or better, regardless of if player won or not, player didn't fold
play bet gets paid 1:1
blind and ante pushes.
I don't think there's a ton to be made grinding this game. I spent about 20 hours grinding it for fun recently using wizards basic strategy.
The game dealt atrociously slowly with inexperienced dealers, and the table limit is ~$10 on the ante bet.
Im wondering if anyone has a code library for UTH to calculate the edge and a basic strategy for this. Im happy to pay for it too.
Quote: edgehunter
The only difference occurs is in the scoring:
if the dealer doesn't open with a pair or better, regardless of if player won or not, player didn't fold
play bet gets paid 1:1
blind and ante pushes.
Without crunching any numbers, I'd say this version would add a huge amount of value to 4-betting.
Quote: edgehunterWhile traveling recently, I came across a UTH variation that appears to give the player an edge.
The game and payouts are the same on the Ante, blind and play bets.
The only difference occurs is in the scoring:
if the dealer doesn't open with a pair or better, regardless of if player won or not, player didn't fold
play bet gets paid 1:1
blind and ante pushes.
I don't think there's a ton to be made grinding this game. I spent about 20 hours grinding it for fun recently using wizards basic strategy.
The game dealt atrociously slowly with inexperienced dealers, and the table limit is ~$10 on the ante bet.
Im wondering if anyone has a code library for UTH to calculate the edge and a basic strategy for this. Im happy to pay for it too.
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This was asked recently:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/37526-uth-change-in-ev-questions/#post862250
I came up with a player advantage of just over 1% without accounting for potential strategy changes.
The bottom line for the 3x pre-flop version of UTH is a house edge (relative to the Ante bet) is 9.67%. The average bet is 3.6699 units, making the Element of Risk 2.63%.
By way of comparison, these figures for convention 4x UTH are 2.185% and 0.526%.
So, an increase in the element of risk of 2.11%. By way of comparison, going from double-zero to triple-zero in roulette adds 2.43% and 6-5 blackjack adds 1.36%.
Here is the strategy, by the two player cards.
N = Check pre-flop
Y = Raise pre-flop
S = Raise pre-flop if suited only
At this table, it is 4x preflop.
Just to verify, the scoring parameters of the the game you ran were:
3x preflop UTH
pair or better to qualify
Dealer NO open, player win = blind push, ante push, play win
Dealer NO open, player lose = blind push, ante push, play win
Quote: WizardOkay, my computer is finished crunching numbers.
The bottom line for the 3x pre-flop version of UTH is a house edge (relative to the Ante bet) is 9.67%. The average bet is 3.6699 units, making the Element of Risk 2.63%.
By way of comparison, these figures for convention 4x UTH are 2.185% and 0.526%.
So, an increase in the element of risk of 2.11%. By way of comparison, going from double-zero to triple-zero in roulette adds 2.43% and 6-5 blackjack adds 1.36%.
Here is the strategy, by the two player cards.
N = Check pre-flop
Y = Raise pre-flop
S = Raise pre-flop if suited only
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Hi Wizard,
I asked this in another thread. This above basic strategy is also good for Heads Up Hold'Em (HUH) without the bad-beat bonus. If you add a bad-beat-odds pay table (straight or better 500-50-10-8-5), will the strategy change?
The casino I play use a cheaper one (straight or better 500-25-6-5-4). How much does this affect the strategy on 3x and 2x strategies? Thank you in advance!
Quote: edgehunterOh wow, I thought for this ruleset, the house edge would decrease by quite a bit.
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I'm talking about regular UTH with a 3x pre-flop raise. Not what you asked about.
9.7% house edge?!Quote: WizardHere is my new page on Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em 3x.
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wow
element of risk would be 9.67%/3.67 = 2.63%.
Still huge :(
avoiding Scarlet Pearl casino in Biloxi, MS
Quote: MoscaHere now, played at Mirage yesterday, checked my hole cards with impunity, no one cared.
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Did the dealer expose one of their cards , if yes at what stage of play, because that seems like a great rule if it is the norm for this version of the game (even if it is only exposed at the "1x bet or fold" decision point)?
Quote: mcallister3200I can back up DeMango that SP deals or dealt a game labeled as UTH (no bad beat bonus) with no 4x option. It was several months before DeMango posted, but I observed a dealer exposing 1 dealer card on the game, sat to play, played one hand and one hand only after not being allowed to 4x it pre-flop, on UTH.
(snip)
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Edit: I know mcallister3200 said SP, and you played at Mirage.
"Big Blind UTH" -
Pictured in a 2020 article about Biloxi casino reopenings. Note the layout: it's VERY similar to traditional UTH. But if you look closely at the picture you can see the smoking gun: two separate columns for the blind payout (one for wins and one for bad beats). This game is simply a repackaged HUH.
https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2020/05/21/what-mississippi-casinos-reopening-heres-list/5224864002/
you can zoom a bit here
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/05/20/PJAM/76abfe27-6bd5-4aa7-9a79-ace1611b3e76-CASINO_ONE.jpg?width=1320&height=880&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
There is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
Quote: WigginsI have never stepped foot in Mississippi, but I have played a lot of UTH in my life. This story never felt right to me. OP admitted being new to the game. A second person confirmed his story but also said he only played one hand. He said he was 99.9%+ sure it was UTH, and I think I figured out why:
"Big Blind UTH" -
Pictured in a 2020 article about Biloxi casino reopenings. Note the layout: it's VERY similar to traditional UTH. But if you look closely at the picture you can see the smoking gun: two separate columns for the blind payout (one for wins and one for bad beats). This game is simply a repackaged HUH.
https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2020/05/21/what-mississippi-casinos-reopening-heres-list/5224864002/
you can zoom a bit here
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/05/20/PJAM/76abfe27-6bd5-4aa7-9a79-ace1611b3e76-CASINO_ONE.jpg?width=1320&height=880&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
There is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
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I don’t know the op but if Mccallister saw the game I believe what he said. He is a very experienced player and would have noticed if was a different version.
Quote: WigginsThere is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
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I trust you. So far I've seen no evidence of 3x UTH existing. If they exist, they should have a bad-beat bonus pay table, like the one in your picture.
Quote: ksdjdjQuote: MoscaHere now, played at Mirage yesterday, checked my hole cards with impunity, no one cared.
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Did the dealer expose one of their cards , if yes at what stage of play, because that seems like a great rule if it is the norm for this version of the game (even if it is only exposed at the "1x bet or fold" decision point)?Quote: mcallister3200I can back up DeMango that SP deals or dealt a game labeled as UTH (no bad beat bonus) with no 4x option. It was several months before DeMango posted, but I observed a dealer exposing 1 dealer card on the game, sat to play, played one hand and one hand only after not being allowed to 4x it pre-flop, on UTH.
(snip)
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Edit: I know mcallister3200 said SP, and you played at Mirage.
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They deal the 4 cards for the 6 card bet, and then community cards with a blank underneath, then the player cards. Then play proceeds. After the river, THEN they deal the dealer's cards.
Quote: WigginsThere is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
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I spent a lot of time analyzing the 3x version and really hope the report and confirmation were accurate. It would be nice to get a second confirmation.
I'll keep an eye out for this "Big Blind" version.
Quote: Wizard
I spent a lot of time analyzing the 3x version and really hope the report and confirmation were accurate. It would be nice to get a second confirmation.
I'll keep an eye out for this "Big Blind" version.
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Hi Wizard, I noticed a tiny difference between your 3x UTH and HUH strategies on your website. It is on this player starting hand of suited K4. I guess this is caused by rounding.
Quote: WizardQuote: WigginsThere is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
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I spent a lot of time analyzing the 3x version and really hope the report and confirmation were accurate. It would be nice to get a second confirmation.
I'll keep an eye out for this "Big Blind" version.
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I’ll check back in a few months. It’s always possible I have brain farts but I am 100% that I questioned it and was told it was CHANGED months earlier. Which would have been post 2020 where Wiggins info is from. I guess it’s possible he meant took out UTH and replaced it with this seperate game rather than changed pay table.
Quote: WizardSomebody on my Live Stream today said he saw a 3x UTH game, but the dealer exposed one of the flop cards before the first decision point. Might this be the case at the Scarlet Pearl? I'm still trying to get a verification on this game.
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AGS Jackpot Holdem. All the same rules as UTH. except 1 flop card exposed and only 3x bet allowed. All other play after is the same.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13AGS Jackpot Holdem. All the same rules as UTH. except 1 flop card exposed and only 3x bet allowed. All other play after is the same.
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Thank you.
Quote: WizardSomebody on my Live Stream today said he saw a 3x UTH game, but the dealer exposed one of the flop cards before the first decision point. Might this be the case at the Scarlet Pearl? I'm still trying to get a verification on this game.
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The game at Pearl that I described was a procedural error exposure, not game design. Was not Jackpot Hold em. I was either mistaken as speculated above (never been a property I’ve frequented often), or it is just UTH with 3x. Card is not intentionally exposed.
Quote: mcallister3200Quote: WizardSomebody on my Live Stream today said he saw a 3x UTH game, but the dealer exposed one of the flop cards before the first decision point. Might this be the case at the Scarlet Pearl? I'm still trying to get a verification on this game.
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The game at Pearl that I described was a procedural error exposure, not game design. Was not Jackpot Hold em. I was either mistaken as speculated above (never been a property I’ve frequented often), or it is just UTH with 3x. Card is not intentionally exposed.
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That could be Galaxy's game Heads Up Holdem. Only a 3x pre flop bet allowed, but has a built in bad bead payout for losing with a straight or better. No additional bet needed.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Quote: mcallister3200Quote: WizardSomebody on my Live Stream today said he saw a 3x UTH game, but the dealer exposed one of the flop cards before the first decision point. Might this be the case at the Scarlet Pearl? I'm still trying to get a verification on this game.
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The game at Pearl that I described was a procedural error exposure, not game design. Was not Jackpot Hold em. I was either mistaken as speculated above (never been a property I’ve frequented often), or it is just UTH with 3x. Card is not intentionally exposed.
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That could be Galaxy's game Heads Up Holdem. Only a 3x pre flop bet allowed, but has a built in bad bead payout for losing with a straight or better. No additional bet needed.
ZCore13
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No, game is titled Big Blind Ultimate Texas Hold em by Bally’s.
It would seem this is a similar game to Bad Beat Hold 'Em, where the Blind bet (what they call the Blind Bonus) can win with a straight or better, even if the player loses. Unfortunately, the rule card doesn't specify the pay table for that (I hate it when rule cards omit such rules).
I spent a lot of time analyzing this 3x version, which was all a big waste of time.
Quote: DeucekiesIt appears that "Big Blind UTH" is an exact copy of Galaxy's "Head's Up Holdem."
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Well since Galaxy basically copies every one else’s games it’s just I feel
Quote: HunterhillQuote: DeucekiesIt appears that "Big Blind UTH" is an exact copy of Galaxy's "Head's Up Holdem."
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Well since Galaxy basically copies every one else’s games it’s just I feel
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There is still a tiny difference between this two games. Big Blind UTH has an Envy Bonus but Heads up Hold’Em doesn’t.
Quote: HunterhillQuote: DeucekiesIt appears that "Big Blind UTH" is an exact copy of Galaxy's "Head's Up Holdem."
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Well since Galaxy basically copies every one else’s games it’s just I feel
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No argument here. Turnabout is fair play.
Suited89
Quote: Suited89I spent about 1 hour of my time looking to vastly improve the "ghost" offering of UTH with a 3x Large wager. I made two distinct changes to the payouts without altering the occurance. When I did this the H.A. dropped to 2.7918%, a 3.675 Ave. Bet yields 0.7597%. As far as I'm concerned, the Wiz or his designee can have it. (still... 1.43x UTH EoR)
Flush Blind Bet = 2:1 TIE is Ante and Blind Push, and 1:1 upon Raise.
Suited89
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Your first change would eliminate the need for 50¢ coins or $2.50 chips in the tray, making room for more workhorse chips. As a dealer and a floor, I'd love that change.
Big Blind UTH. Photo taken two days ago at Scarlet Pearl
Quote: Wiggins
Big Blind UTH. Photo taken two days ago at Scarlet Pearl
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Galaxy's game Heads Up Holdem has an much better pay table.
On UTH, is there any risk for an operator to allow one player to play all 6 positions. One hand open and 5 blind. The Player will play to the table maximum on each hand.
My logic says "no" it the same as 6 individual players each playing the maximum and if anything the house has an edge because the player is making bets without seeing the cards. But I question if this changes if all from the same bank roll?
many Thanks!
Quote: JoeTheDragonQuote: Wiggins
Big Blind UTH. Photo taken two days ago at Scarlet Pearl
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Galaxy's game Heads Up Holdem has an much better pay table.
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Not really. The Bad Beat portion is the better of the two paytables available for HUH. The other one goes 4-5-6-50-500.
The Blind portion is the lousier of the two, with the other one going the traditional 1-1.5-3-10-50-500, but this lower pay table is also available with HUH.
https://wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-11/Heads%20Up%20Hold%2527em%20amended%206-30-21.pdf
