Thread Rating:

Dieter
Administrator
Dieter 
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 3214
Thanks for this post from:
heatmap
January 29th, 2022 at 5:19:57 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter


Anyway, this whole discussion is reminiscent of the old "beast mode" arguments.
link to original post



To me this beast mode term was introduced to obfuscate the actual problem. This has to do with how the patent systems work. They have the abilities to produce certain products. They have the abilities to potentially stop people from producing products that are being sold that contain the patented technology. The only thing stopping them from doing specific things related to the patents are jurisdictional laws which specifically state that the functionalities of their technologies are illegal. If something is not defined as illegal it canít be produced, otherwise if itís not illegal or even if it is legally defined - they can produce it and its a literal win win in my opinion.
link to original post



I doubt it is illegal to build a card cheating device.
It probably is illegal for a casino to employ such a device if it has not been verified as fair by GLI or a similar approved agency.
Admittedly, they only certify that as built, the device operates fairly.
A device could be later modified to cheat, but:
  • someone has to design the modification
  • someone has to effect the modification
  • someone has to allow the modification
  • anyone who might encounter a modification has to ignore it
All of that cheating costs money. I have a feeling that the costs outweigh the benefits.
May the cards fall in your favor.
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 3475
January 29th, 2022 at 7:00:04 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter


Anyway, this whole discussion is reminiscent of the old "beast mode" arguments.
link to original post



To me this beast mode term was introduced to obfuscate the actual problem. This has to do with how the patent systems work. They have the abilities to produce certain products. They have the abilities to potentially stop people from producing products that are being sold that contain the patented technology. The only thing stopping them from doing specific things related to the patents are jurisdictional laws which specifically state that the functionalities of their technologies are illegal. If something is not defined as illegal it canít be produced, otherwise if itís not illegal or even if it is legally defined - they can produce it and its a literal win win in my opinion.
link to original post



I doubt it is illegal to build a card cheating device.
It probably is illegal for a casino to employ such a device if it has not been verified as fair by GLI or a similar approved agency.
Admittedly, they only certify that as built, the device operates fairly.
A device could be later modified to cheat, but:
  • someone has to design the modification
  • someone has to effect the modification
  • someone has to allow the modification
  • anyone who might encounter a modification has to ignore it
All of that cheating costs money. I have a feeling that the costs outweigh the benefits.
link to original post



To me the best evidence that casinos donít employee cheating crash shufflers is that switching to 6:5 is so much cheaper and easier.

Is it possible some sweaty downtown joint installed a cheating shuffler at one table known to get hit by card counters for the sole purpose of [Expletive redacted] with the card counters? Maybe. I dunno.
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Jan 30, 2022
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
gordonm888
Administrator
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
  • Threads: 55
  • Posts: 3700
January 30th, 2022 at 4:44:18 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter


I doubt it is illegal to build a card cheating device.
It probably is illegal for a casino to employ such a device if it has not been verified as fair by GLI or a similar approved agency.
Admittedly, they only certify that as built, the device operates fairly.
A device could be later modified to cheat, but:

  • someone has to design the modification
  • someone has to effect the modification
  • someone has to allow the modification
  • anyone who might encounter a modification has to ignore it
All of that cheating costs money. I have a feeling that the costs outweigh the benefits.
link to original post



Not in Russia. Not in parts of Asia. Not in South America,
Just look at the tactics/methods designed by Russians to beat slot machines.

And in the US all it takes is someone competent at programming and incompetent at making other choices in life.

I think it is important for players to keep their eyes wide open, and to keep thinking and asking questions.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter 
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 3214
January 30th, 2022 at 6:29:16 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Quote: Dieter


I doubt it is illegal to build a card cheating device.
It probably is illegal for a casino to employ such a device if it has not been verified as fair by GLI or a similar approved agency.
Admittedly, they only certify that as built, the device operates fairly.
A device could be later modified to cheat, but:

  • someone has to design the modification
  • someone has to effect the modification
  • someone has to allow the modification
  • anyone who might encounter a modification has to ignore it
All of that cheating costs money. I have a feeling that the costs outweigh the benefits.
link to original post



Not in Russia. Not in parts of Asia. Not in South America,
Just look at the tactics/methods designed by Russians to beat slot machines.

And in the US all it takes is someone competent at programming and incompetent at making other choices in life.

I think it is important for players to keep their eyes wide open, and to keep thinking and asking questions.
link to original post



Fair points. I am assuming the US regulated market.
May the cards fall in your favor.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
  • Threads: 206
  • Posts: 1760
January 30th, 2022 at 6:35:07 AM permalink
i willl always go back to this quote from GLIs website - it never really changes and hasnt in a while and today it is still there.

https://gaminglabs.com/gli-standards/

Quote:

GLIís business is to test, review and report on gaming devices and systems against the standards established by relevant gaming jurisdictions worldwide.

Each jurisdiction has the authority to set their own standards; however, many use our standards as a starting point in developing their regulations.



and IMO - if the specific jurisdiction's laws do not specifically say that "cheating is defined as" and includes verbiage that is specific to the shufflers or whatever cheating actually is - AND HAVE IT BE APPILIED TO THE CASINOS SPECIFICALLY - then i will never change my mind about how I feel.

this quote to me is the only thing you need to know before you start developing any game and once you understand that GLI - seemingly - checks the laws of the jurisdiction that you are developing the game for - and if the laws do not say that your particular game is illegal in any way - then they may pass it. You dont have to follow the standards if its not illegal to do those things in your jurisdiction IMO.
Last edited by: heatmap on Jan 30, 2022
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
January 30th, 2022 at 9:19:37 AM permalink
Quote: Marcusclark66



Personally I do not know of any players introducing cards into a live baccarat game. I searched through security bulletins within the industry for the past 20 years that our brand subscribes to. None. The only thing close of any substantial meaning is the infamous Tran Gang we all know about.

There are a select few insignificant collusionís between regionalized local players and select dealers, but those are all about paying when the players lost the hand or paying larger amounts that were bet, etc. Most all of those I found were in the Midwest and the East Coast.



Why would there be many cases of player cheating when according to reported results here by you and 'others', baccarat seems to be a game that can be beaten almost at will?
Marcusclark66
Marcusclark66
Joined: Mar 26, 2020
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 1140
January 30th, 2022 at 9:49:58 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Quote: Marcusclark66



Personally I do not know of any players introducing cards into a live baccarat game. I searched through security bulletins within the industry for the past 20 years that our brand subscribes to. None. The only thing close of any substantial meaning is the infamous Tran Gang we all know about.

There are a select few insignificant collusionís between regionalized local players and select dealers, but those are all about paying when the players lost the hand or paying larger amounts that were bet, etc. Most all of those I found were in the Midwest and the East Coast.



Why would there be many cases of player cheating when according to reported results here by you and 'others', baccarat seems to be a game that can be beaten almost at will?
link to original post



You are very clear (IMO) with your innuendos.

I will not answer as there is no need to. I state facts, both on the casinos side as well as myself being a live table player with the game.
Marcus Clark. Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66. *Professional Casino Security Expert. *Certified EMT *Certified Company Firearms Instructor. *Certified Gaming Regulations Interpreter for Corporate Applications. *Domestic UrbanTactical Combat Casualty Expert. *Tic-Tac-Toe Expert (Real Competitive Versions) & Mastering Chess. *Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club. *Mastering Cracking it. Bit-by-Bit, Piece-by-Piece Crediting Forum Members. *Certified Casino Property Entry & Exit Point Analyzer *Baccarat Winning Session Record: 12 out of 12 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session. Baccarat Losing Session Record: 2 Losing Sessions.

  • Jump to: