Is Roulette a game of chance or skill?
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Yes. Only play the european game with la partege rule. That gives minimal house edge, so you tend to lose more slowly.Quote: AylaDeuceI know that all casino games are mostly luck-based, but is there a way to boost your chances in any way at Roulette?
Quote: AylaDeuceI know that all casino games are mostly luck-based, but is there a way to boost your chances in any way at Roulette?
No you cant increase your chances because of this
The short answer is no.Quote: AylaDeuceI know that all casino games are mostly luck-based, but is there a way to boost your chances in any way at Roulette?
Here's a long answer of 'maybe.'
There are concepts known as a "dealer's signature" and "targeting."
The signature refers to the somewhat similar motions that the dealer uses when spinning the wheel and releasing the ball. If consistency can be achieved, the dealer can target a specific number, or at least a small portion of the wheel.
A player who is working with the dealer will then bet in that range. Sometimes a dealer will subconsciously develop the signature and an AP who has been watching closely can predict the target.
For instance, if the partner/AP bets on a 9 number range, he only needs to be correct at least 24% of the time to be profitable. Increase the accuracy and profits go way up.
For these reasons, dealers are instructed to not look at the wheel when releasing the ball. Additional game security includes a very short time between releasing the ball and announcing 'no more bets.' Sometimes, it's announced while releasing the ball.
Anyway, if you believe all that, then the game can be a game of skill.
Otherwise, it's a game of luck.
But the randomness created by the ball hitting the diamonds and bouncing out of the pockets, makes the signature skill thing less likely.
I believe it's quite difficult to find a la partage game in the USA. If that wasn't bad enough, gambling winnings (and every other form of income or capital gain) are taxable here. So that means the 5.26% edge on double zero roulette is even higher with taxes factored in.Quote: OnceDearYes. Only play the european game with la partege rule. That gives minimal house edge, so you tend to lose more slowly.
Quote: Ace2I believe it's quite difficult to find a la partage game in the USA. If that wasn't bad enough, gambling winnings (and every other form of income or capital gain) are taxable here. So that means the 5.26% edge on double zero roulette is even higher with taxes factored in.
If you are willing to gamble at high enough stakes many big casinos will deal it to you.
Quote: Ace2I believe it's quite difficult to find a la partage game in the USA. If that wasn't bad enough, gambling winnings (and every other form of income or capital gain) are taxable here. So that means the 5.26% edge on double zero roulette is even higher with taxes factored in.
If you are willing to gamble at high enough stakes many big casinos will deal it to you.
Quote: Ace2I believe it's quite difficult to find a la partage game in the USA. If that wasn't bad enough, gambling winnings (and every other form of income or capital gain) are taxable here. So that means the 5.26% edge on double zero roulette is even higher with taxes factored in.
If you are willing to gamble at high enough stakes many big casinos will deal it to you.
Of course. But how high...$1000 minimum bet?Quote: DRichIf you are willing to gamble at high enough stakes many big casinos will deal it to you.
Quote: Ace2Of course. But how high...$1000 minimum bet?
I have no idea. The best negotiators usually get the best terms.
Quote: AylaDeuceis there a way to boost your chances in any way at Roulette?
Not taking the bait..
Quote: EvenBobNot taking the bait..
I will, there are plenty of ways to boost your chances in Roulette. Many would be considered illegal but they would still boost your chances. Some like timing the ball may or may not be illegal depending on the jurisdiction. Finding biased wheels is completely legal and will boost your chances.
Quote: DRichFinding biased wheels is completely legal and will boost your chances.
Few and far between these days. This is no longer the 1980s.
Quote: EvenBobFew and far between these days. This is no longer the 1980s.
I agree, but I would bet that there is least one out there that can be taken advantage of.
Quote: AylaDeuceI know that all casino games are mostly luck-based, but is there a way to boost your chances in any way at Roulette?
So I am going to get really technical here and if you can't follow along then the answer is going to be a NO but if you can grasp what I'm saying then the answer is actually a YES! There is no such thing as a perfectly balanced roulette table or a perfectly functioning roulette table. Anything with moving parts creates friction and wear which is never evenly distributed due to the laws of entropy. There is no such thing as a roulette table that doesn't have a bias to its outcomes. There have been plenty of advantage players who have collected tens of thousands of roulette outcome data. It's important to note that EVERY roulette table has a bias but that bias might not be enough to overcome the house edge to were the game becomes profitable. What's shocking tho is that some roulette tables have had such large biases that these AP players where profiting from American roulette which has a house edge of 8%!!!!!!!
Not to start an argument, but...Quote: USpapergames...What's shocking tho is that some roulette tables have had such large biases that these AP players where profiting from American roulette which has a house edge of 8%!!!!!!!
American Roulette’s edge is 5.26%.
Triple Zero, a relatively new game, has an edge of 7.7%
Quote: DJTeddyBearNot to start an argument, but...
American Roulette’s edge is 5.26%.
Triple Zero, a relatively new game, has an edge of 7.7%
You are using traditional math not the new techniques that USP is using. There is no point in USP explaining it to us because we are not smart enough to understand it.
Ok...
Whatever.
Quote: DJTeddyBearNot to start an argument, but...
American Roulette’s edge is 5.26%.
Triple Zero, a relatively new game, has an edge of 7.7%
Your correct, I was talking about triple zero. I rarely ever play Rolette & forget how many green spaces there are. I just remember that the UK version has 1 less green space, thank you.
Quote: DRichYou are using traditional math not the new techniques that USP is using. There is no point in USP explaining it to us because we are not smart enough to understand it.
What??? Does anyone understand what he is saying???
eh i dont even consider this a thing because i think its TCS John Huxley has a "drop zone" bias
Quote: heatmapif there were one roulette forum board on here i would say it should be about visual ballistics, biased wheels, and dealer signatures.. if theres one more im missing lmk
eh i dont even consider this a thing because i think its TCS John Huxley has a "drop zone" bias
Your right, the bias of roulette wheels has dramatically dropped over the years because casinos became aware of the issue but virtually no roulette wheel has an even distribution of these than 1% bias, it's just that those biases aren't large enough to overcome the house edge almost all the time :( I liked the 90's AP roulette gangs.
Quote: heatmapif there were one roulette forum board on here i would say it should be about visual ballistics, biased wheels, and dealer signatures.. if theres one more im missing lmk
eh i dont even consider this a thing because i think its TCS John Huxley has a "drop zone" bias
repeat
Quote: USpapergamesYour right, the bias of roulette wheels has dramatically dropped over the years because casinos became aware of the issue but virtually no roulette wheel has an even distribution of these than 1% bias, it's just that those biases aren't large enough to overcome the house edge almost all the time :( I liked the 90's AP roulette gangs.
from what i understand from reading into tcs john huxleys process - they actually want bias and variance - because its what they consider to be more random. does that make any sense because i have no idea its just what ive read.
Quote: heatmapfrom what i understand from reading into tcs john huxleys process - they actually want bias and variance - because its what they consider to be more random. does that make any sense because i have no idea its just what ive read.
I'm not sure if I want to share information on this topic but what I can say is that there is a huge difference between implied randomness and actually randomness. But the short answer is I don't think its smart to purposefully unbalance a wheel since its impossible to make one that over time wont become unbalanced. its like saying you want you jeans broken in when you buy them but if you get them like that they wear out unpredictably and much faster.
Quote: USpapergamesI'm not sure if I want to share information on this topic but what I can say is that there is a huge difference between implied randomness and actually randomness. But the short answer is I don't think its smart to purposefully unbalance a wheel since its impossible to make one that over time wont become unbalanced. its like saying you want you jeans broken in when you buy them but if you get them like that they wear out unpredictably and much faster.
no sorry i didnt mean to imply that they were making the wheel unbalanced - but the bounce of the ball
Quote: heatmapno sorry i didnt mean to imply that they were making the wheel unbalanced - but the bounce of the ball
Ya your bringing up some high level topics into this discuss. Your knowledge of game design is seriously high level, like you have been farming libraries of information as if your were grinding an MMORPG character leveling them up!
Quote: heatmapno sorry i didnt mean to imply that they were making the wheel unbalanced - but the bounce of the ball
repeat
Quote: USpapergamesthere is a huge difference between implied randomness and actually randomness.
What is implied randomness.
Quote: EvenBobWhat is implied randomness.
I want to know the same thing!
I'm not sure how you arrived at the 8%, however I would like to compliment you on this post, it was pretty good.Quote: USpapergamesSo I am going to get really technical here and if you can't follow along then the answer is going to be a NO but if you can grasp what I'm saying then the answer is actually a YES! There is no such thing as a perfectly balanced roulette table or a perfectly functioning roulette table. Anything with moving parts creates friction and wear which is never evenly distributed due to the laws of entropy. There is no such thing as a roulette table that doesn't have a bias to its outcomes. There have been plenty of advantage players who have collected tens of thousands of roulette outcome data. It's important to note that EVERY roulette table has a bias but that bias might not be enough to overcome the house edge to were the game becomes profitable. What's shocking tho is that some roulette tables have had such large biases that these AP players where profiting from American roulette which has a house edge of 8%!!!!!!!
Quote: AylaDeuceI know that all casino games are mostly luck-based, but is there a way to boost your chances in any way at Roulette?
MGM used to allow everyone to buy fun chips. It could be done once at every one of their properties. $55 in chips for $40 in cash, I think. I must have done it at six or seven places. I remember getting really lucky at Circus Circus and turning my $40 into over $80. Circus Circus actually let anyone do it every six months. I almost always played roulette and that is a big reason why I am up almost $1,000 in roulette in this lifetime. A little over a year ago, New York New York let me do it again. I've found a few other casinos that do it, too.
I thought about using them on blackjack, but if I saw a lot of small cards, I would then feel obligated to bet my own money. I would be that guy who gets $15 in freeplay and loses $300. That might sound irrational, but that was my thinking in 2009. Craps might have been better as well, but that is a much more intimidating game. Roulette is so friendly, we just pick whatever color we think is lucky. You can also make three bets at once, betting on "red or black", "odd or even" and "high or low" on the same spin. But that is not a good system, because when I tried it, I did not do as well as usual.
For a few years I knew of a couple sportsbooks that would give out match play coupons, one was a true $5 match play, the other was a $7 for $5 match play. I would usually buy in for $100 and use them at double deck blackjack, and if it was a good count, I would bet everything I had on the table. But sometimes I would use them at roulette. I am pretty sure I won more than I lost, which is very easy to do when being paid either 1.4 to 1 or 2 to 1.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm not sure how you arrived at the 8%, however I would like to compliment you on this post, it was pretty good.
Sorry, I am seriously ignorant to the details of most table games. I actually did the math at 3/39 thinking there were 3 green spaces. I'm not kidding when I say I am a complete ignoramus when it comes to most table games. I defiantly learn these games but I never play them and im not going to commit memory to them. If you asked me how baccarat was played I'd actually have to look it up and i think everyone knows by now that I'm not going to do research of any comments on WoV.
Quote: EvenBobWhat is implied randomness.
So this is a rather advanced topic that I normally wouldn't share but since I like you and you asked nicely I'll answer.
So there is no such thing as true randomness since in theory all information is notable including information that is swallowed by black holes. So in theory everything is knowable about the past, present, and future. So how we classify randomness as game designers is by using the two categories, actual randomness and implied randomness. Let's 1st define actual randomness so that its easier to grasp implied. Actual randomness is any variable that us humans today can't determine it's outcome prior to its results. So for example a dice roll is random if it hits a wall of triangles (or at least that's what the scientific community believes and randomness is going to be determined by what notions are most prevalent in society, so convincing the scientific community is probably the only way dice control will be taken seriously). Actual randomness are variables that society consider deterministic, so I guess in a privative society randomness could be something as simple as picking the same card that you drew earlier, since some privative societies has extremely poor memories.
As for implied randomness, this is the randomness that the player assumes is part of the game. For example implied randomness could be that the player assumes that every reel in a video slot game is identical with the same frequency distribution of all the reel symbols or the belief that any pitch from the dealer of a roulette ball is all equally random. Implied randomness is SUPER important when designing casino games. I actually teach a lot about the subject in my mechanical analysis of Royal Slots that I've posted on this forum a couple of times now.
Quote: USpapergamesSo this is a rather advanced topic that I normally wouldn't share but since I like you and you asked nicely I'll answer.
So there is no such thing as true randomness since in theory all information is notable including information that is swallowed by black holes. So in theory everything is knowable about the past, present, and future. So how we classify randomness as game designers is by using the two categories, actual randomness and implied randomness. Let's 1st define actual randomness so that its easier to grasp implied. Actual randomness is any variable that us humans today can't determine it's outcome prior to its results. So for example a dice roll is random if it hits a wall of triangles (or at least that's what the scientific community believes and randomness is going to be determined by what notions are most prevalent in society, so convincing the scientific community is probably the only way dice control will be taken seriously). Actual randomness are variables that society consider deterministic, so I guess in a privative society randomness could be something as simple as picking the same card that you drew earlier, since some privative societies has extremely poor memories.
As for implied randomness, this is the randomness that the player assumes is part of the game. For example implied randomness could be that the player assumes that every reel in a video slot game is identical with the same frequency distribution of all the reel symbols or the belief that any pitch from the dealer of a roulette ball is all equally random. Implied randomness is SUPER important when designing casino games. I actually teach a lot about the subject in my mechanical analysis of Royal Slots that I've posted on this forum a couple of times now.
I would be interested in what random number generator you have implemented and why you chose that method?
Quote: USpapergamesSo this is a rather advanced topic that I normally wouldn't share but since I like you and you asked nicely I'll answer.
So there is no such thing as true randomness since in theory all information is notable including information that is swallowed by black holes. So in theory everything is knowable about the past, present, and future. So how we classify randomness as game designers is by using the two categories, actual randomness and implied randomness. Let's 1st define actual randomness so that its easier to grasp implied. Actual randomness is any variable that us humans today can't determine it's outcome prior to its results. So for example a dice roll is random if it hits a wall of triangles (or at least that's what the scientific community believes and randomness is going to be determined by what notions are most prevalent in society, so convincing the scientific community is probably the only way dice control will be taken seriously). Actual randomness are variables that society consider deterministic, so I guess in a privative society randomness could be something as simple as picking the same card that you drew earlier, since some privative societies has extremely poor memories.
As for implied randomness, this is the randomness that the player assumes is part of the game. For example implied randomness could be that the player assumes that every reel in a video slot game is identical with the same frequency distribution of all the reel symbols or the belief that any pitch from the dealer of a roulette ball is all equally random. Implied randomness is SUPER important when designing casino games. I actually teach a lot about the subject in my mechanical analysis of Royal Slots that I've posted on this forum a couple of times now.
Just because all information is notable does not mean that there is no such thing as true randomness. At root, it may be that the base information is coded as random probability functions.
Quote: unJonJust because all information is notable does not mean that there is no such thing as true randomness. At root, it may be that the base information is coded as random probability functions.
The way I look at it is you can not prove randomness until you have all information. Which I think is impossible.
Quote: DRichI would be interested in what random number generator you have implemented and why you chose that method?
So this is rather complicated to explain but Royal Slots doesn't use RNG to determine its outcomes, which is why it's so superior to every other slot design. The 1st version of the game didn't use any RNG at all!
So lets get into defining some of the terms your going to need to know to follow this topic. Royal Slots does use RNG but its mechanics are ROG based and not RNG based.
So ROG's (random outcome generators) are far superior for several reasons I don't want to get into but basically the reels on Royal Slots are truly free spinning in that the game will stop immediately on the outcomes that are displayed. Royal Slots uses RNG to determine just the reel speeds not the reel outcomes. The reel speeds are set to return values for speeds between 75 - 200 frames per second. Each of the 9 reels has an independent RNG system which is not connected to the payout system, which only reeds the current outcomes that are displayed and pays out accordingly. This way its impossible for a hacker to physically hack into the machine and program the RNG to payout the jackpots!
Quote: unJonJust because all information is notable does not mean that there is no such thing as true randomness. At root, it may be that the base information is coded as random probability functions.
We are getting into some huge science here. Lets talk. Einstein went to his grave believing that God doesn't play dice. Heisenberg principle states that the microverse can only be described using probability theory. But all las of physics say that information can not be destroyed because matter can't be destroyed. But that's not true since in nuclear reactions there is substantial energy loss that can not be accounted for. My conclusion, Einstein is right we just cant prove it yet. No information is lost we just cant figure out where the missing information's is for certain things. We can even bring Claude Shannon into the argument with information theory if you want, I love talking about the man.
Quote: DRichThe way I look at it is you can not prove randomness until you have all information. Which I think is impossible.
That's a very poetic way of looking at it. I think the best concept that describes randomness is that randomness is almost like a belief system, not like a religion but more like a superstition that everyone believes in. The word random probably originates from peoples failed attempts at understanding complex stuff. But its important to note that when we talk about actual randomness in games we are primarily discussing stuff that nobody should be able to figure out without using a computer and some serious math lol.
Quote: USpapergamesWe are getting into some huge science here. Lets talk. Einstein went to his grave believing that God doesn't play dice. Heisenberg principle states that the microverse can only be described using probability theory. But all las of physics say that information can not be destroyed because matter can't be destroyed. But that's not true since in nuclear reactions there is substantial energy loss that can not be accounted for. My conclusion, Einstein is right we just cant prove it yet. No information is lost we just cant figure out where the missing information's is for certain things. We can even bring Claude Shannon into the argument with information theory if you want, I love talking about the man.
Link for nuclear reaction missing energy that cannot be accounted for? Not something I’ve heard of before.
Quote: unJonLink for nuclear reaction missing energy that cannot be accounted for? Not something I’ve heard of before.
See this is the problem, we get into high level discussions and suddenly I have to have links to research to back it up :/ I don't want to do research online to find what I already know but somehow I feel compelled to do so just because I like unJon.
Quote: USpapergamesSee this is the problem, we get into high level discussions and suddenly I have to have links to research to back it up :/ I don't want to do research online to find what I already know but somehow I feel compelled to do so just because I like unJon.
I stay relatively abreast of physics topics and was surprised I had not heard of it. I spent 5 min trying to Google it and came up empty.
Quote: unJonI stay relatively abreast of physics topics and was surprised I had not heard of it. I spent 5 min trying to Google it and came up empty.
So if my memory serves me right this there has been several research studies done decades after the Manhattan project where statisticians could not account for the small loss of energy in atomic explosions. I'll see if I can find the info for you but basically its the same problem that we observe from loss of energy in a neutron star explosion in that there are less neutrinos then would should be present and still stumps scientist today. But I think I have the answer to all of those questions and their is a scientist that is currently studying the problem and has come up with a solution that I agree with. But then we are getting into some taboo areas which politics and religion are prohibits on this site.
Quote: DRichI will, there are plenty of ways to boost your chances in Roulette. Many would be considered illegal but they would still boost your chances. Some like timing the ball may or may not be illegal depending on the jurisdiction. Finding biased wheels is completely legal and will boost your chances.
That's not going to work at live casinos though.
Quote: AylaDeuceThat's not going to work at live casinos though.
he knows trust me
Last night. 5 spins four of them was the number 11. You
just don't see this very often. Of course half of the loud
mouths in the chat section were screaming cheat, rigged,
fixed wheel. It's actually the opposite, no rigged wheel is
ever going to spin the same number four times out of five.
Quote: EvenBobThis was on the live roulette wheel at Bovada at 1:10 a.m.
Last night. 5 spins four of them was the number 11. You
just don't see this very often. Of course half of the loud
mouths in the chat section were screaming cheat, rigged,
fixed wheel. It's actually the opposite, no rigged wheel is
ever going to spin the same number four times out of five.
Thats a cammegh wheel... how do you not think its rigged it has RRS on it? Thus why do you NOT think its RIGGED?
