Ultimate Texas Holdem 2 Hands
Quote: DanielFromOCWith the changes in the Vegas casinos, some places are allowing for the simultaneous play of two hands at Ultimate Texas Hold Em, since there are 6 spots and a limit of 3 players per table. This means that a player can now see 4 cards out of the deck, instead of just two. I am wondering how this changes the odds of making the max bet before the flop. For instance, if I have an Ace 6 in one of my hands and an Ace 5 in the other hand, would I still bet the max on each hand, knowing that there is a much lower chance of pairing my ace? It is easy to figure the math out on when to call at the end, based on the 22 outs. I am just not sure if I am throwing my money away pre-flop by playing the same basic strategy as I would if playing one hand at a time.
Either you, someone else, or a computer program would have to analyze the optimal strategy for every decision point and hand. There are many possibilities for what your 'other,' two cards could be...though many of those aren't going to change the decision you would make. If you look around online, then you might be able to find something on, "Collusion in UTH," or, "Collusion in Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em," so I would start my search there.
I think the easiest strategy changes would involve the final decision to bet or fold after all of the community cards are known. These decisions often involve counting the number of possible outs for the dealer, but the knowledge of the extra two cards might either eliminate dealer outs, or in a worse case, be cards that do not represent dealer outs, and therefore, give the dealer more outs relative to the remaining unknown cards.
In any case, you definitely want to make sure you are making the correct decisions for an adjusted strategy, but as long as you can do that, you will effectively be playing with a lower house edge as you can make (new) optimal decisions based on remaining deck composition.
Quote: DanielFromOCWith the changes in the Vegas casinos, some places are allowing for the simultaneous play of two hands at Ultimate Texas Hold Em, since there are 6 spots and a limit of 3 players per table. This means that a player can now see 4 cards out of the deck, instead of just two. I am wondering how this changes the odds of making the max bet before the flop. For instance, if I have an Ace 6 in one of my hands and an Ace 5 in the other hand, would I still bet the max on each hand, knowing that there is a much lower chance of pairing my ace? It is easy to figure the math out on when to call at the end, based on the 22 outs. I am just not sure if I am throwing my money away pre-flop by playing the same basic strategy as I would if playing one hand at a time.
I have looked at this extensively, but unfortunately that information is on a failed hard disk that I have mailed to a clean room facility for data recovery.
I do remember decisions on these hands being affected by the identity of the two cards:
First decision (stand or large raise) J9o and J8s; K2s and K4o, and (I think) Q7o and Q6s; also a pair of 3s and 4s.
What is it that affects these decisions? EX: Well, for J8s, basic strategy is to raise 4X. However if either of the other two cards are a J or 8, then don't raise. I think also if the suited 9 or 10 is in the other two cards, then don't raise.
For 33 pair and 44 pair, if your other two cards have one (or two?) 3 or 4, respectively, than don't raise the small pairs.
2nd decision (stand or medium raise): quite a few weak hands should NOT be raised when you have key cards that are needed to improve a hand,
3rd decision (fold or small raise): as you mentioned, you should factor in the two cards when you have no pair, straight or flush and are counting whether dealer outs add up to 21 or higher.
It will be a couple of weeks before I will have my recovered data from the failed disk and be able to give you more specific information.
Quote: gordonm888
What is it that affects these decisions? EX: Well, for J8s, basic strategy is to raise 3X..
Raise 3X? You mean raise 4X. No such thing as a 3X raise in basic strategy.
Quote: VegasriderRaise 3X? You mean raise 4X. No such thing as a 3X raise in basic strategy.
Sorry, a typo. I will fix it in the main post.
Quote: DanielFromOCThat seems like a great start. All of the rules may not be there, but whatever allows us to lose less over a longer period of time is a win. Based on what you are saying, I believe I did give some chips away by employing the basic strategy, despite having some of my outs in the other hand. Thanks.
Yes, just look at the various strategy charts (either on WOO or discount gambling) and look at the break points where the strategy changes from Raise to stand. The weakest hands that you Raise with are the most likely to flip over to Stand when you see outs in other cards.
K2s: Raise: -0.075 Stand: -0.080
J8s: Raise: +0.107 Stand: +0.069
Q8o: Raise: -0.069 Stand: -0.096
Those are the closest hands, as I remember it and are all susceptible to flipping when their outs are in the cards you can see,
The decision on 33 and 44 are not very close mathematically, but so much of their equity is in making a 3oak that when a 3 or 4, respectively, is removed from the deck it greatly weakens their prospects.
Quote: CharmedQuarkThis is not advice, just an opinion. I would play each hand independently of the other using basic strategy. Regarding knowing 2 aces tells you also those aces are not in the dealers hand. A bit of an advantage, I think. Also most of the articles regrading collusion pretty much come to the conclusion is that there is not a significant advantage if any using collusion. Bottom line - Basic strategy is always the best way to play each hand.
Pre-Covid 19, when the tables were full, sitting at 3rd base allows me to observe the entire tables behavior
Most players get really excited or just blurts out there hands or just turns over their hands and ask what they should do. I quietly pick up information, without collusion. It often gives me a slight edge knowing what cards are NOT in play
Quote: CharmedQuarkThis is not advice, just an opinion. I would play each hand independently of the other using basic strategy. Regarding knowing 2 aces tells you also those aces are not in the dealers hand. A bit of an advantage, I think. Also most of the articles regrading collusion pretty much come to the conclusion is that there is not a significant advantage if any using collusion. Bottom line - Basic strategy is always the best way to play each hand.
I 100% agree that, when seeing 2 Cards, the effect of the strategies I described on House Edge are extremely small - because the conditions occur infrequently. But I answered a question that was asked, and it is kinda fun to reoptimize your decision once in every hundred hands or so.
But your advice is not mathematically sound. When you have a J8s, much of the strength (or "equity") of your hand lies in the prospect of J's or 8's hitting the board and giving you one pair, two pair, 3oak, whatever. Also, a small amount of your hand's equity lies in the prospect of making a straight or flush. So, specifically looking for the key cards: Jacks or Eights or cards that will give you a flush or straight - is the way to go.
And when you can indeed see other cards (that are "removed from the deck") then you have more information than was assumed when "basic strategy" was developed. So it is indeed mathematically sound to consider changes in basic strategy in those circumstances.
Quote: gordonm888I 100% agree that, when seeing 2 Cards, the effect of the strategies I described on House Edge are extremely small - because the conditions occur infrequently. But I answered a question that was asked, and it is kinda fun to reoptimize your decision once in every hundred hands or so.
But your advice is not mathematically sound. When you have a J8s, much of the strength (or "equity") of your hand lies in the prospect of J's or 8's hitting the board and giving you one pair, two pair, 3oak, whatever. Also, a small amount of your hand's equity lies in the prospect of making a straight or flush. So, specifically looking for the key cards: Jacks or Eights or cards that will give you a flush or straight - is the way to go.
And when you can indeed see other cards (that are "removed from the deck") then you have more information than was assumed when "basic strategy" was developed. So it is indeed mathematically sound to consider changes in basic strategy in those circumstances.
I agree with this breakdown. I would also say that, from a probability standpoint, if there is a jack in each of your hands, then that's one jack that is definitely no longer amongst the unknown cards. If the jack was amongst the unknown cards, the probability that the dealer has it is relatively low. Same thing with aces, or with any other card. It's true that the dealer does not have that particular card of that rank, but the fact that you do (in opposing hands) makes your situation worse than the small chance that the dealer might have that card otherwise.
Also, not only is it not in the dealer's hand...it's also not coming on the board.
Quote: DanielFromOCIt seems that if there were no significant advantage to knowing more cards, the dealer would not have a fit when you show cards to other players.
Dealers only have a fit over it because their management instructs them too. Casino management often acts in a knee-jerk manner when it comes to perceived "player advantage".
The fact is that the casinos that allow players to see each other's cards on UTH are doing it right. The advantage that can be gained is minimal, and what's going to happen far more often is players are going to chicken out of good plays. "I have AK suited! I'm going to bet four tim...oh, you have a king? I check."
