DanielFromOC
Joined: Jul 29, 2020
• Posts: 6
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July 29th, 2020 at 10:50:51 AM permalink
With the changes in the Vegas casinos, some places are allowing for the simultaneous play of two hands at Ultimate Texas Hold Em, since there are 6 spots and a limit of 3 players per table. This means that a player can now see 4 cards out of the deck, instead of just two. I am wondering how this changes the odds of making the max bet before the flop. For instance, if I have an Ace 6 in one of my hands and an Ace 5 in the other hand, would I still bet the max on each hand, knowing that there is a much lower chance of pairing my ace? It is easy to figure the math out on when to call at the end, based on the 22 outs. I am just not sure if I am throwing my money away pre-flop by playing the same basic strategy as I would if playing one hand at a time.
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
• Posts: 13288
July 29th, 2020 at 11:33:55 AM permalink
Quote: DanielFromOC

With the changes in the Vegas casinos, some places are allowing for the simultaneous play of two hands at Ultimate Texas Hold Em, since there are 6 spots and a limit of 3 players per table. This means that a player can now see 4 cards out of the deck, instead of just two. I am wondering how this changes the odds of making the max bet before the flop. For instance, if I have an Ace 6 in one of my hands and an Ace 5 in the other hand, would I still bet the max on each hand, knowing that there is a much lower chance of pairing my ace? It is easy to figure the math out on when to call at the end, based on the 22 outs. I am just not sure if I am throwing my money away pre-flop by playing the same basic strategy as I would if playing one hand at a time.

Either you, someone else, or a computer program would have to analyze the optimal strategy for every decision point and hand. There are many possibilities for what your 'other,' two cards could be...though many of those aren't going to change the decision you would make. If you look around online, then you might be able to find something on, "Collusion in UTH," or, "Collusion in Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em," so I would start my search there.

I think the easiest strategy changes would involve the final decision to bet or fold after all of the community cards are known. These decisions often involve counting the number of possible outs for the dealer, but the knowledge of the extra two cards might either eliminate dealer outs, or in a worse case, be cards that do not represent dealer outs, and therefore, give the dealer more outs relative to the remaining unknown cards.

In any case, you definitely want to make sure you are making the correct decisions for an adjusted strategy, but as long as you can do that, you will effectively be playing with a lower house edge as you can make (new) optimal decisions based on remaining deck composition.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Vegasrider
Joined: Dec 23, 2017
• Posts: 647
July 29th, 2020 at 1:31:19 PM permalink
Initially, I believe you must act on your 1st hand before you get to see your 2nd hand. Based on playing on a full table, there was a distinct advantage playing 3rd base, and if used correctly you could lower the house's edge even more
DanielFromOC
Joined: Jul 29, 2020
• Posts: 6
July 29th, 2020 at 1:51:42 PM permalink
The day I was there, they were not requiring you to look at one hand before the other, but they may have not figured out the disadvantage yet. I am sure when I go back in two weeks, their math will be all figured out. It is a great point you bring up though, and one that had not even crossed my mind. Thank you.
DanielFromOC
Joined: Jul 29, 2020
• Posts: 6
July 29th, 2020 at 1:54:27 PM permalink
That sounds like a lot of math, but I will look for some basic strategies. I am sure that if I have two hands, and a pair of sixes in each, I will not be raising at all. But having similar cards in each hand must have some basic rules to follow, especially when you get down to 10-J and other hands that are not auto calls when the board is all laid out. I appreciate the insight and will be looking around for something on collusion. Thanks.
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 2848
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July 29th, 2020 at 2:21:17 PM permalink
Quote: DanielFromOC

With the changes in the Vegas casinos, some places are allowing for the simultaneous play of two hands at Ultimate Texas Hold Em, since there are 6 spots and a limit of 3 players per table. This means that a player can now see 4 cards out of the deck, instead of just two. I am wondering how this changes the odds of making the max bet before the flop. For instance, if I have an Ace 6 in one of my hands and an Ace 5 in the other hand, would I still bet the max on each hand, knowing that there is a much lower chance of pairing my ace? It is easy to figure the math out on when to call at the end, based on the 22 outs. I am just not sure if I am throwing my money away pre-flop by playing the same basic strategy as I would if playing one hand at a time.

I have looked at this extensively, but unfortunately that information is on a failed hard disk that I have mailed to a clean room facility for data recovery.

I do remember decisions on these hands being affected by the identity of the two cards:

First decision (stand or large raise) J9o and J8s; K2s and K4o, and (I think) Q7o and Q6s; also a pair of 3s and 4s.

What is it that affects these decisions? EX: Well, for J8s, basic strategy is to raise 4X. However if either of the other two cards are a J or 8, then don't raise. I think also if the suited 9 or 10 is in the other two cards, then don't raise.

For 33 pair and 44 pair, if your other two cards have one (or two?) 3 or 4, respectively, than don't raise the small pairs.

2nd decision (stand or medium raise): quite a few weak hands should NOT be raised when you have key cards that are needed to improve a hand,

3rd decision (fold or small raise): as you mentioned, you should factor in the two cards when you have no pair, straight or flush and are counting whether dealer outs add up to 21 or higher.

It will be a couple of weeks before I will have my recovered data from the failed disk and be able to give you more specific information.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Jul 29, 2020
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
DanielFromOC
Joined: Jul 29, 2020
• Posts: 6
July 29th, 2020 at 3:39:27 PM permalink
That seems like a great start. All of the rules may not be there, but whatever allows us to lose less over a longer period of time is a win. Based on what you are saying, I believe I did give some chips away by employing the basic strategy, despite having some of my outs in the other hand. Thanks.
Vegasrider
Joined: Dec 23, 2017
• Posts: 647
July 29th, 2020 at 3:40:49 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

What is it that affects these decisions? EX: Well, for J8s, basic strategy is to raise 3X..

Raise 3X? You mean raise 4X. No such thing as a 3X raise in basic strategy.
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 2848
July 29th, 2020 at 4:11:47 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Raise 3X? You mean raise 4X. No such thing as a 3X raise in basic strategy.

Sorry, a typo. I will fix it in the main post.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 2848
July 29th, 2020 at 4:26:24 PM permalink
Quote: DanielFromOC

That seems like a great start. All of the rules may not be there, but whatever allows us to lose less over a longer period of time is a win. Based on what you are saying, I believe I did give some chips away by employing the basic strategy, despite having some of my outs in the other hand. Thanks.

Yes, just look at the various strategy charts (either on WOO or discount gambling) and look at the break points where the strategy changes from Raise to stand. The weakest hands that you Raise with are the most likely to flip over to Stand when you see outs in other cards.

K2s: Raise: -0.075 Stand: -0.080
J8s: Raise: +0.107 Stand: +0.069
Q8o: Raise: -0.069 Stand: -0.096

Those are the closest hands, as I remember it and are all susceptible to flipping when their outs are in the cards you can see,

The decision on 33 and 44 are not very close mathematically, but so much of their equity is in making a 3oak that when a 3 or 4, respectively, is removed from the deck it greatly weakens their prospects.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.