Can you beat roulette?

I am not suggesting a 'system' can beat roulette, but I want to discuss other methods.

1) Wheel bias
I have read about wheel bias, and that the wheel is either slightly off level or the pockets are a fraction of a millimetre bigger. But in a modern day casino, do you think bias can still exist? I hear about all these countermeasures casino's have to combat bias, after all a fair wheel is a profitable wheel.

2) Dealer signature
The suggestion that croupiers are somewhat consistent in their wheel speed and ball speed. Can lead to patterns in the numbers. Such as the ball landing 17 pockets to the left when the wheel is spun clockwise more often than any other frequency. You would need a massive sample size, but could be possible.

3) Devices
There are two known roulette computer sellers, one here in the UK and one in Aus. I am not posting any links, as they are always at each others throats and seem very suspicious. I think the maths is very possible, practical application would be hard. Do you think a device that is capable of predicting exact number hits to 1 in 11 accuracy is worth the $20,000 asking price? And how would you go about using it in such a way that meant you didnt get caught.

4) Past posting
Simple, placing a bet after the result. I am fairly sure this is very rare. Have you ever seen it done? Would you say anything if you did?

Which of the above do you consider fair game, and which are cheating.

1) Wheel bias
No longer. Manufacturing tolerances are high.

2) Dealer signature
Casinos force dealers to look away from the wheel prior to ball release, many casinos alternate direction of wheel rotation and most casinos alternate the use of the two different balls that are used. The balls are of different size and weight.

3) Devices
Such devices only predict to an octet, not an exact number. Its a felony to have it in your possession and surveillance notices "toe-tappers". Beaming lasers at a wheel and at a ball to determine angular velocity, predict the number and reveal it to you in real time works in only ONE casino: The Montecito which is located in Culver City, CA.

4) Past posting
Some teams of past posters still operate but its difficult and of course leads to a jail sentence.

Past posting is cheating.

The only way to win at roulette is to get really, really good at guessing numbers. Practice it a lot, then put it into practice!

Quote: FleaStiff

Wheel bias -- No longer. Manufacturing tolerances are high.

What about bias that's introduced after manufacturing, such as through improper maintenance? There's an indian casino here in Washington where each of the pockets of the roulette wheel have visible amounts of crud around the edges, similar to what you'd see in the coin return of a well-used vending machine. The crud in the center is rubbed off, but the edges are crufty.

Quote: FleaStiff

1) Wheel bias
No longer. Manufacturing tolerances are high.

2) Dealer signature
Casinos force dealers to look away from the wheel prior to ball release, many casinos alternate direction of wheel rotation and most casinos alternate the use of the two different balls that are used. The balls are of different size and weight.

3) Devices
Such devices only predict to an octet, not an exact number. Its a felony to have it in your possession and surveillance notices "toe-tappers". Beaming lasers at a wheel and at a ball to determine angular velocity, predict the number and reveal it to you in real time works in only ONE casino: The Montecito which is located in Culver City, CA.

4) Past posting
Some teams of past posters still operate but its difficult and of course leads to a jail sentence.

Ah... The Montecito. The only casino where the valet has a post graduate degree from MIT.

Quote: benbakdoff

Quote: FleaStiff

3) ... The Montecito which is located in Culver City, CA.

Ah... The Montecito. The only casino where the valet has a post graduate degree from MIT.

And I thought all of the exterior video showed the Montecito somewhere a little south of the Tropicana, maybe across from Mandilay Bay. Las Vegas/California geography is so confusing....

Quote: WizardofEngland

I am not suggesting a 'system' can beat roulette, but I want to discuss other methods.

Taking advantage of wheel bias and/or dealer signature would not be cheating. Using an electronic device while gambling to assist the player is a felony. Past posting is simply cheating, and is a felony (and "cheating" the casinos is more serious an offense in Nevada than murder, rape, or armed robbery).

There was an entertaining book written about 15 years ago about a group of MIT students who (allegedly) used roulette wheel tracking to make a jillion skillion dollars. It was called, I believe, "The Eudaemonic Pie". In theory, such methods are possible; in practice, there are too many variables in wheel speed, dealer release of the ball, etc. to make it worthwhile. And anybody surreptitiously beaming a laser onto the wheel, interpreting the result, and then hurriedly slamming a bet onto the table would be a bit...obtrusive.

It's truly breathtaking how much disinformation is out there about Roulette. I wonder if that is by design?

It's amazing they even let you play the game.

I seem to recall it was largely Stanford personnel involved and they were told "don't publish" since MIT personnel claimed to have been winning on biased wheels for some time.

The upshot was that clocking the wheel and having the results calculated and indicated by LEDs inside his eyeglass frame didn't really add much to the profits and the team was quickly spotted as betting on octets and always doing it fairly late in the spin.

I feel the only bias you will find these days is created by the over cleaning and over polishing of the roulette wheels. Frequently moving wheels is also a great way to create wheel bias because of damage to the various wheel components.

If I was a casino manager, I'd leave the wheels be and would lay off the wheel polishing. The maintenance crew is the biggest cause of short term wheel bias.

The new wheels are amazing. No drop on the cone, its a gentle slope. And the pockets for the numbers is a solid piece of cast aluminum, flat on top, no frets, and the pockets are barely larger than the ball. There is a lot of bounce and scatter, I don't see how anybody can gain an edge on these wheels.

The new roulette wheels look more like a cheaply made hub cap that has been stamped than an actual roulette wheel. In general, the average player doesn't like them because they don't look fair.

Quote: Keyser

The new roulette wheels look more like a cheaply made hub cap that has been stamped than an actual roulette wheel. In general, the average player doesn't like them because they don't look fair.

The average player has no idea what he's looking at, a wheel is a wheel. I like the new ones, they seem very fair and quite random.

Quote:

The average player has no idea what he's looking at, a wheel is a wheel. I like the new ones, they seem very fair and quite random.

Nonsense. That's kind of like saying the average person doesn't know the difference between an old slot machine and a video slot machine.

Quote: Keyser

Nonsense. That's kind of like saying the average person doesn't know the difference between an old slot machine and a video slot machine.

Not nonsense at all. I play roulette 2-3 times a week and nobody pays any attention to the wheel at all. They don't talk about it, they don't look at it, they don't ask questions about it. All they care about is the layout and where their bets go. Only former bias and VB players give a whit about the wheel, and they are few and far between.

Quote: FleaStiff

3) Devices
Such devices only predict to an octet, not an exact number. Its a felony to have it in your possession and surveillance notices "toe-tappers". Beaming lasers at a wheel and at a ball to determine angular velocity, predict the number and reveal it to you in real time works in only ONE casino: The Montecito which is located in Culver City, CA.

What is a toe tapper?

And what does it mean to predict an octet? It almost sounds like it will predict 8 possible numbers the ball can land in.

Quote: Mosca

Past posting is cheating.

The only way to win at roulette is to get really, really good at guessing numbers. Practice it a lot, then put it into practice!

if you are practicing and get really good is it still guessing?

Quote: rocketman

What is a toe tapper?

And what does it mean to predict an octet? It almost sounds like it will predict 8 possible numbers the ball can land in.

Most of the "computers" require you to input the last number (octet) by tapping your toe to activate a mechanism in your shoe. It is very obvious and if you are caught with one you will do time.

And yes an octet is a set of 8 consecutive numbers on the wheel. This is possible to do in your head but the outcome will be a headache. You can, of course, keep a paper record of the numbers and have the octets listed by color code. Most of the newer setups keep "hot and cold" numbers, red and black percentages and odd and even percentages. Why do they do that? Because people are convinced that they work. Do they? - what do you think?

The best "system" I've ever found was wait for three runs of red (or black, or odd/even or high/low) and bet the opposite component using a mini-martingale until it hits. Another method is to always bet the last value i.e. red gets red, high gets high, odd gets odd and so on. You could also use that to select a range of numbers - for example all odd + low + red numbers.

These are fun things to do at low amounts of money. I usually use any comp cash I get playing those kinds of things on the digital roulette games. Sometimes I win sometimes I lose but since the amount of money either way isn't life changing - it's all good.