Frustrated by the fire bet.

I was playing craps today and someone rolled 5 out of 6 numbers. I never bet the fire bet (high house edge) but I felt pretty left out when people were being paid off. Two guys at $5 on it and got pushed $1250 each. Maybe I should just break down and put a buck on the damn thing?

Keep the faith, and stay away from sucker bets. Read my signature.

Quote: Wizard

Keep the faith, and stay away from sucker bets. Read my signature.

I may have to put that signature on a card I keep in my wallet!

Quote: DrEntropy

I was playing craps today and someone rolled 5 out of 6 numbers. I never bet the fire bet (high house edge) but I felt pretty left out when people were being paid off. Two guys at $5 on it and got pushed $1250 each. Maybe I should just break down and put a buck on the damn thing?

Yes, but the best thing about that "left out" feeling is it did not cost you anything.
Sucker bets, like The Wizard says, stay away. You make more money by not betting them as you do in betting them.

And those players that rave about the Fire Bet and hardways and horn bets are the loud ones to say they won!

Those same players you saw getting paid off $1250 each probably lost $2500 or more to get the $1250 payoff.

That is why it is called a sucker bet. After many many losses, the taste is finally a sweet one.

At the Fire Bet website: http://www.hopbet.com/
“FIRE BETS” payoffs can be thought of as being similar to a six spot Keno ticket, wherein a player will be paid for 4, 5 or 6 “Individual Points” made,"

comparing the bet to Keno... now that is the biggest clue! Stay away!

Quote: DrEntropy

Maybe I should just break down and put a buck on the damn thing?

I feel that depends a bit on your objective. If you are trying to maximize your financial position (given that you are playing a -EV game), then the Wizard's advice makes sense. On the other hand, if you are just trying to have some fun, then your decisions might be different. I occasionally put $1 on the fire bet, much the way I buy lottery tickets and place hard way bets. I know it's not one of the better wagers, but it might contribute to your fun even if it doesn't win. Besides, I'm in positive deviation territory on the fire bet -- just by chance, of course. Back in August I reported hitting $250 for $1 win at Harrah's Tunica, and I doubt that I have yet placed the wager 250 times.

Quote: DrEntropy

Maybe I should just break down and put a buck on the damn thing?

That is how the dealers "sell" the bet. "Hey, its only a buck and you will feel miserable if someone else hits it and you don't". Many such side bets are really subject to a similar spiel in other games.

Are you going to start listening to the Stick Man and do all that Center Bet stuff?

Maybe you should play 6:5 blackjack, after all that dealer is really cute and half naked.

Maybe you should play Keno or maybe you should buy a Lottery Ticket. How about Flip It?

The principle is the same: Intelligent action and an intelligent allocation of your budget. Even the 20 spot Keno Ticket is a really sensible choice, if you happen to win it. The fact that no one in decades has done it doesn't matter.

The payout is enticing on that FireBet... that is why it was invented. Sucker bet? Yes.

My views have changed on those sucker bets. I see a lot of people who know how to play craps throw dollars on those bets. I guess it is a part of the craps experience. I mean it's not too bad to make like 50 dollars of those bets (expected loss of 5 bucksish?). I guess if the dice are hot you can do the hard ways. I really don't think it's as bad as it sounds as I thought before because hardly anyone bets above 5 dollars for those anyway. It's fun once in a while if you hit those. I mean it is annoying when the stick tries to tell you "oh come on it's a dollar only" kind of crap but if you limit yourself to only a few of those once in a while then I guess it's ok. It's ok to throw some dollars out there if you are up or you are down to your last few dollars. I think doing that might give you a chance to come back if you're down to your last few dollars.

I feel your pain. Then again, I *usually* get the FireBet.

Yeah, I can't argue the fact that it's a sucker bet.

But, unlike the sucker bets on any other game (and that includes the Poker For Roulette side bet that I have developed), this one has the appeal of being a single bet that remains unresolved for an extended duration, with no ability to make that bet after the initial betting period.

That single fact is one of the primary reasons it appeals to me.

And that it's only a buck, during which time I could be risking over a hundred before seeing a profit.

And that if it hits, you feel like dirt if you forgot to throw down a measley buck.



But the flip side of the coin is quite nice too:

Even if you didn't make the bet, if the FireBet hits, and you've had your bets spread out at all, you're still making money (unless you're a Don't bettor).

Quote: focd

My views have changed on those sucker bets. I see a lot of people who know how to play craps throw dollars on those bets. I guess it is a part of the craps experience. I mean it's not too bad to make like 50 dollars of those bets (expected loss of 5 bucksish?). I guess if the dice are hot you can do the hard ways. I really don't think it's as bad as it sounds as I thought before because hardly anyone bets above 5 dollars for those anyway. It's fun once in a while if you hit those. I mean it is annoying when the stick tries to tell you "oh come on it's a dollar only" kind of crap but if you limit yourself to only a few of those once in a while then I guess it's ok. It's ok to throw some dollars out there if you are up or you are down to your last few dollars. I think doing that might give you a chance to come back if you're down to your last few dollars.

You have to realize that placing a $5 hardway bet is exactly equivalent to throwing fifty cents over your shoulder. It doesn't take many repetitions of this act to add up to throwing a $5 bill over your shoulder, then $10, then $20...and the casino is the one that bends down, picks that money up, and puts it in its pocket.

I have to agree that 5 bucks for hardways is a lot. I think a buck or 2 is fine. But if you are up by a lot and want to go for the homerun hit then you really aren't risking too much if you put like a quarter for a hardway.

EDIT- actually I think you are right - I don't make those bets and I am not sure but I think they always ask if you want it back up after it hits an easy number - it's weird when you just bet it once because they keep asking if you want it back up - you can lose a lot quickly

Quote: mkl654321

You have to realize that placing a $5 hardway bet is exactly equivalent to throwing fifty cents over your shoulder. It doesn't take many repetitions of this act to add up to throwing a $5 bill over your shoulder, then $10, then $20...and the casino is the one that bends down, picks that money up, and puts it in its pocket.

No, not really. It's more like throwing fifty cents over your shoulder and getting a little jolt of excitement in return. It might not be worth it for you, and it doesn't usually work for me, but you do have to say the whole equation, the good part as well as the bad part. If a guy feels it's worth fifty cents to him, then it is.

I have to agree it's conflicting as there are pros and cons. Making those prop bets give you some excitement and also slows the game down a bit. Also, with those dollar bets, the stickman also has to do a lot of work positioning them and keeping track. So it's not all that bad. The problem is that they keep asking you if you want it back up. It's like weird or something if you just want to make 1 bet and 1 bet only.

Quote: Mosca

No, not really. It's more like throwing fifty cents over your shoulder and getting a little jolt of excitement in return. It might not be worth it for you, and it doesn't usually work for me, but you do have to say the whole equation, the good part as well as the bad part. If a guy feels it's worth fifty cents to him, then it is.

I might have to try throwing 50 cents over my shoulder and see what happens :)
If I hit a security guard, I might get a jolt.
:)

If your hardway comes down due to an easy roll, asking to put it back up is more on the customer service side. Since most players WILL want to put it back up. If the dealer remained slient, you'd be pissed if the hard way then hit. Of course, if the dealer is silent and another easy way , or seven hits, then the house would be pissed. Either way, if the dealer doesn't say something, someone will be pissed.

Ditto for the FireBet. If you bet it once, it's not out of line for the dealer to remind you when there is a new shooter.


On the other hand, if you are NOT betting the FireBet, and the dealer is goading you with comments that it's only a buck, that's a different story.

I play the don't and a woman last week hit 7 points and the next day a guy hit 5 points. They hurt me. But most of the time the house gets the money from the fire bet.

Entertainment value. That's how you should look at ANY gambling.

I am entertained by half dressed blackjack dealers, but I don't get enough entertainment value out of it to overcome the 6/5 buttraping.

Roulette could be fun, but again, the knowing the high house edge, precludes me from enjoying it.

I do buy a lottery ticket though. It has a much higher "house edge" than any casino game. But I get way more than a $1 in entertainment value out of day dreaming what I will do with the 20 or 40 million dollars that I could possibly win.

So if you are entertained by throwing .50 over your shoulder, do it. If you are entertained by playing the Fire bet, do it. I just want to make sure that those playing 6/5 blackjack, or the Fire Bet, or Keno, KNOW that it has a lot higher H.A. than other bets available.

Dr. Entropy,

I know how you feel. One night, I had a monster streak and hit 4 points. Everybody was cheering since they had a nickel on the fire each. I however, did not have a fire bet at all. So when I sevened out, everyone around me was being paid 125. Now that's great and everything, but I'm pretty sure they've lost more than 125. In fact, given how crappy they were shooting, their win might only be break-even at best.

Do you ever see anyone making a living out of betting the fire bet? I doubt it. What about only betting on the craps 12 or 2. That'd actually be pretty amusing. See someone making 29 consecutive $5 bets on the craps 12 or 2. Not so amusing for the guy who loses 29 consecutive bets, but interesting to watch.

Don't feel too bad that you hit a 5 pt fire but had no action. You might have been better off at buying a scratch-off ticket or a lottery ticket.

Quote: focd

I have to agree it's conflicting as there are pros and cons. Making those prop bets give you some excitement and also slows the game down a bit. Also, with those dollar bets, the stickman also has to do a lot of work positioning them and keeping track. So it's not all that bad. The problem is that they keep asking you if you want it back up. It's like weird or something if you just want to make 1 bet and 1 bet only.

I have a couple of dealer manuals, and they both stress "hustle the prop bets". Naturally, the casino wants people to bet those, because they make more money per dollar bet than the line, field and place bets. The dealers represent the interests of the casinos, and some of them get pretty aggressive about it, trying to make the player feel "cheap" if he/she doesn't keep putting that hardway back up, or whatever. I have had dealers make fun of me because I didn't increase my bets enough during a hot roll, too. Part of their job is to maximize the amount bet and the proportion of it bet on higher-vig bets. The player does not have to cooperate.

If you make $1 bets on the 12, for example, you are, in a way, "throwing 14 cents over your shoulder", because the HA is built in to every bet; even if you win, they are taking $5 of the $35 you would be paid in a fair game and putting it in their stacks. If you look at the casinos, on one hand, and the players, taken as an aggregate, on the other, there is going to be a "transfer of wealth" from the players to the casinos, on these bets, of something close to 14% of the total amount bet.

However, from the point of view of an individual player, the picture is different, it seems to me. Suppose I play for a couple of hours, betting the pass line for $5 and taking 3, 4, 5X odds. That's an average bet of about $19 with an expected loss of about seven cents. During this session, if there are 200 rolls, we expect something like 23 shooters, on average (average hand is 8.525 rolls). Suppose I make a $1 12 bet on each shooter's initial roll. The ev for 60 $5 pass bets is -$4.24, and for 23 $1 12 bets it's -$3.19, so I'm "throwing around $7.50 over my shoulder". In the worst-case scenario, I am losing $23 on the "boxcars", and the probability of that occurring is .523. OTOH, there's .477 probability that I will win AT LEAST one of those bets and a .133 probability that I will win two OR MORE. I only need to win one to be net ahead. Each additional win is worth $31 more, while the losses are capped at $23, so it's a very skewed distribution. If a player gets lucky and wins, that does not increase the probability of losing them all next time, as there is no "cosmic rubber band" pulling an individual's results back to the ev.

Understand, I am not advocating this, I'm just saying that an individual player can make bets like these with full understanding of the math involved. It depends on what the player is playing for -- to take maximum advantage of good luck, if it occurs; to minimize the damage of bad luck; to maximize the probability of one's bankroll lasting until you have to pee; to get a thrill -- whatever.

Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Quote: goatcabin

I have a couple of dealer manuals, and they both stress "hustle the prop bets". Naturally, the casino wants people to bet those, because they make more money per dollar bet than the line, field and place bets. The dealers represent the interests of the casinos, and some of them get pretty aggressive about it, trying to make the player feel "cheap" if he/she doesn't keep putting that hardway back up, or whatever. I have had dealers make fun of me because I didn't increase my bets enough during a hot roll, too. Part of their job is to maximize the amount bet and the proportion of it bet on higher-vig bets. The player does not have to cooperate.

I totally agree with what you say in that I feel that the dealers try to persuade you into making prop bets or making place bets when the rolls are hot. When I mean by making place bets, I mean placing those sucker numbers like 4, 5, 9, and 10. However, there is a difference when it comes to better places to play craps as opposed to places you don't want to play at. Some places will mention it once and once you say no, they won't keep asking again. However, some dealers will go "come on it's only a dollar, it won't hurt" or "what can you do with a dollar these days? you can't even get a candy bar." That's how bad it is. Sometimes it's not just what they say but it's just their body language, etc... Which is why I avoid playing at those places at all costs. I agree with you that players don't have to listen, but it really is easier said than done. If you're playing by yourself there are 4 people watching you and sometimes they keep asking making you feel uncomfortable. And you can't sometimes just say straight up NO (as in like NO don't ask again because it's getting annoying!) That's a part of craps I don't like because sometimes you can't just walk away with a bunch of chips when the dealer(s) is/are annoying. They might ask you to color up before you leave if you do decide to just walk off and it feels weird when you know the dealers are rude. It's makes me feel really uncomfortable counting chips on the rail slowly while everyone is unfriendly in that way. It makes you look like you're cheap or paranoid because you have to stop and have everyone wait for you to count your chips before you color up. That's what I don't like about these dealers and I'm guessing they're the ones who hustle for players to make prop bets. I mean I'm sure boxmen make mistakes while counting chips. That's why I will only play at places I like/or are familiar with.

Quote: goatcabin

Suppose I play for a couple of hours, betting the pass line for $5 and taking 3, 4, 5X odds. That's an average bet of about $19 with an expected loss of about seven cents.

Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

WTF? If you were to bet that way, your average bet would be $25 ($5 pass/$20 odds)

No, the 6 and 8 are set most often as points and the 4 and 10 least often. They don't balance each other out, though.

Quote: TIMSPEED

WTF? If you were to bet that way, your average bet would be $25 ($5 pass/$20 odds)

Not really as you'd have $5 bets out that won or lost on the come out.

Quote: TIMSPEED

WTF? If you were to bet that way, your average bet would be $25 ($5 pass/$20 odds)

This is a very common error players make -- an unconscious assumption that you make an odds bet every decision; of course, you only make an odds bet, on average, 2/3 of the time, so you have (.33 * 5) + (.67 * 25) = $18.40.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Quote: goatcabin

This is a very common error players make -- an unconscious assumption that you make an odds bet every decision; of course, you only make an odds bet, on average, 2/3 of the time, so you have (.33 * 5) + (.67 * 25) = $18.40.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Except for the rare players, and I have dealt to a few in my time, that never bet the comeout roll but always made the put bet with max odds (mostly 2 and 3 times odds).
I could never figure out that one.

Quote: goatcabin

This is a very common error players make -- an unconscious assumption that you make an odds bet every decision; of course, you only make an odds bet, on average, 2/3 of the time, so you have (.33 * 5) + (.67 * 25) = $18.40.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Ohh ok, I gotcha. Well, at least they rate me for $25 when I play $5+3/4/5x :)

I must say that, while I stay away from all the middle bets on the craps table, I'm a 'sucker' for the sucker Fire Bet. It's a $1 bet that (as an earlier poster stated) can take a bit of time to resolve. I know the house edge is super-high, but I've done way dumber / more wasteful things with $1. Plus I hit all 6 points with a Firebet up last year in Biloxi, so the $1k probably turned out to be like crack for me. I'm sure I'll spend the next few trips 'giving it all back' lol.

Side note, the guy next to me had $5 for himself and $1 for the dealer. That was all of the Fire Bets on the table for my roll. Guess how many people were betting the FB after my roll... lol

When I roll I sometimes put $5 on "Big Red" and if I hit I parlay then press until I stop throwing 7's. I don't do it every time but I've had streaks of 4 through 7 "reds" in a row on several occasions for each. I sometimes put a buck or two on the "yo" and if it hits I always parlay it and if it hits again I press - I've only had 3 in a row once. I might play the hardways for a buck, not often, and always parlay then press those as well.

I seldom play the firebet. But when I do I always put the dealers in play. Had a 6 number hit a couple of years ago and the dealers were pretty pleased with the payoff.

These are fun bets - they keep me from dying of boredom while I'm at the table.

Quote: focd

However, some dealers will go "come on it's only a dollar, it won't hurt" or "what can you do with a dollar these days? you can't even get a candy bar." That's how bad it is. Sometimes it's not just what they say but it's just their body language, etc... Which is why I avoid playing at those places at all costs. I agree with you that players don't have to listen, but it really is easier said than done. If you're playing by yourself there are 4 people watching you and sometimes they keep asking making you feel uncomfortable. And you can't sometimes just say straight up NO (as in like NO don't ask again because it's getting annoying!) That's a part of craps I don't like because sometimes you can't just walk away with a bunch of chips when the dealer(s) is/are annoying. They might ask you to color up before you leave if you do decide to just walk off and it feels weird when you know the dealers are rude. It's makes me feel really uncomfortable counting chips on the rail slowly while everyone is unfriendly in that way. It makes you look like you're cheap or paranoid because you have to stop and have everyone wait for you to count your chips before you color up. That's what I don't like about these dealers and I'm guessing they're the ones who hustle for players to make prop bets. I mean I'm sure boxmen make mistakes while counting chips. That's why I will only play at places I like/or are familiar with.

This reads like an expansion of your prior complaints. Craps is a game that you are paying to enjoy. If you don't enjoy it, play elsewhere or don't play at all. It's not supposed to make you feel uncomfortable (except, maybe, when you're losing).

I'd say anywhere from 70 to 90 percent of the table employees are reasonable, if not really friendly, especially if you do not come off like a snot, a know-it-all, an a-hole, hostile, complaining or things like that. Also, it pays to pick up on their likes and dislikes and even ask for their advice.

Just this week, I was out of position and had difficulty laying odds on DC bets. The dealer saw that it was making extra confusion and work for him and he saw that I was trying to get them out of the come box and up near the DC. After a bit, he said, "Just put them in the come box." Fortunately, I was playing my system (to not much avail) really consistently. So he and the reliefs picked up quickly on it.

No BS. Just heads-up dealing and pure business. And the appreciation was noted.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Just this week, I was out of position and had difficulty laying odds on DC bets.

What position makes it easy to lay those DC odds?

On a side note, I always thought they should shorten the Come and/or Field by a couple inches, and have a second DC box near the stick....

Quote: DJTeddyBear

What position makes it easy to lay those DC odds?

Because we were all don't players except for one on the left side (and the right side had a couple of don'ts, too) I started out SL1, then moved to the hook and eventually next to the dealer. That makes it easier not only to put down the DC, but also, if there is time, to piggyback the odds when they move in back of the numbers.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

On a side note, I always thought they should shorten the Come and/or Field by a couple inches, and have a second DC box near the stick....

Most definitely. They are oversized for the volume they see. And especially at a place that don't bettors favor like Caesars, there is barely enough room for two don't players with odds, not to mention three.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Because we were all don't players except for one on the left side (and the right side had a couple of don'ts, too) I started out SL1, then moved to the hook and eventually next to the dealer. That makes it easier not only to put down the DC, but also, if there is time, to piggyback the odds when they move in back of the numbers.

Most definitely. They are oversized for the volume they see. And especially at a place that don't bettors favor like Caesars, there is barely enough room for two don't players with odds, not to mention three.

If I'm along the rail I usually just put the bet in the Don't Pass box and ask the dealer to put it in the DC.

Interesting observation regarding Caesars - is that Caesars LV or AC? I've played extensively in both places and never noticed a lot of don't players (aside from me that is).

Quote: Martin

Is that Caesars LV or AC? I've played extensively in both places and never noticed a lot of don't players (aside from me that is).

Most definitely AC. Check out the tables at the bottom of the escalator. But not the pit on the Boardwalk side. Probably more so on off hours.

I'm in there frequently - the interesting thing is they usually have more craps tables going than any other Harrah's property. Last time I was there they had six tables in full play.

You're also the second person who has mentioned that there are a lot of don't players in Caesar's.

Click read patent and scroll down to the paytables that show the house edge.

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=lQUNAAAAEBAJ&dq=6655689

I'm not sure about the edge for the preferred paytable of 1000/250/25 .. but I would assume it's 20% or higher.

I have bet the fire bet .. and I have tipped dealers. Tipping a dealer a dollar is about the same cost as doing a $5 fire bet as I figure it. Or betting the fire 5 times in sequence.

Quote: Martin

You're also the second person who has mentioned that there are a lot of don't players in Caesar's.

They also serve some of the best mai tais at the rail.

Quote: SanchoPanza

They also serve some of the best mai tais at the rail.

Now that I didn't know. Thanks

Ask for extra cherries. They can be really generous.