Ultimate Texas Holdem Question
I was playing recently and a few players were just horrible at it, only making a 3x raise. And then only making it with monster hands, like big aces or big pairs. The only person raising any ace was me. They were often amazed at some of the plays I was making.
My question is this, firstly, if you only ever make the 3x raise, but use the correct strategy, what does this do the house edge?
If you only made the 3x raise with TT+ and ATs+, and only made the 4x raise with AA, AK, KK, QQ, what does that do to the house edge?
And can we quantify that mistake to something they might understand? Such as, not raising there is like hitting a hard 18 vs a Ten, or its like playing roulette with 6 zeros...
I am very aware of the fact that horrible plays like this enable this game to survive, but sometimes I just want to try and educate people a bit more.
Just tell them it’s your birthday and you are feeling lucky.
That's before they don't bet 4x at all when they should. I see it everywhere.
I tell people who ask things like...
The Play bet is your friend. Scared money can't win this game. You have to be aggressive, not conservative, because the Blind bet is always working against you. The Play bet balances off the Blind bet.
I can think of 3 people out of several.hundred I've sat with in the last few years who knew any strategy. I can think of 3 more who asked me what my strategy was and then played it.
I tell them, and others who ask but get scared off by the size of the bet, "4x JTo or better. All pairs except deuces. All aces. All K5 or better. And go from there." Just to make it simple. And, "if it's worth a 3x bet, it's worth a 4x bet, every time."
But mostly I've given up volunteering comments.
It forces you to think you are overbetting to get the most out of it. Just say it’s your birthday.
Quote: beachbumbabsIn one of the other UTH threads, a math guy (think it was Wizard) said, if you bet 3x when you should bet 4x, and otherwise play perfectly, the HE is approximately 7%, up from approximately 2%.
That's before they don't bet 4x at all when they should. I see it everywhere.
According to this post, it's 9.66%.
Yikes!Quote: mipletAccording to this post, it's 9.66%.
I wonder what the casino's edge would be overall. Considering the awful play I've seen at the tables, I could easily see it in the double digits. Out of curiosity, does anyone have an idea how the casino rates UTH? If you are playing $5 blind/ante what do they consider your average bet to be? What HE do they assume for comp calculations?
Quote: beachbumbabs
I can think of 3 people out of several.hundred I've sat with in the last few years who knew any strategy. I can think of 3 more who asked me what my strategy was and then played it.
.
I still have not witnessed a player playing perfect or close to perfect strategy besides myself. I've actually had the entire table turn their hand over and I told them what to do, everyone won. It's a huge edge when you get to see what cards has has been dealt. But I stop doing that, actually casino told me to refrain helping the entire table. Advice is still allowed based on individual inquire. Some guy was betting $60 a hand and was dealt pocket 9's. He was going to check it and I told him it's a 4X bet. He took my advice and put out $240. The board was A-A-J-J-5, oops! LOL,,, his 9 high was good!
This is why I wish I could bank this game, players are horrible. They have no clue playing heads up poker. I still have to tweak my betting range. Flat betting every hand doesn't accomplish much, I'm still experimenting when I need to keep pressing. I do not play trips!
Quote: JoemanYikes!Quote: mipletAccording to this post, it's 9.66%.
I wonder what the casino's edge would be overall. Considering the awful play I've seen at the tables, I could easily see it in the double digits. Out of curiosity, does anyone have an idea how the casino rates UTH? If you are playing $5 blind/ante what do they consider your average bet to be? What HE do they assume for comp calculations?
Harrahs LV rates a $10 ante, $5 trips as $45 a hand. Thats the only one who's told me.
Quote: VegasriderI still have not witnessed a player playing perfect or close to perfect strategy besides myself. I've actually had the entire table turn their hand over and I told them what to do, everyone won. It's a huge edge when you get to see what cards has has been dealt. But I stop doing that, actually casino told me to refrain helping the entire table. Advice is still allowed based on individual inquire. Some guy was betting $60 a hand and was dealt pocket 9's. He was going to check it and I told him it's a 4X bet. He took my advice and put out $240. The board was A-A-J-J-5, oops! LOL,,, his 9 high was good!
This is why I wish I could bank this game, players are horrible. They have no clue playing heads up poker. I still have to tweak my betting range. Flat betting every hand doesn't accomplish much, I'm still experimenting when I need to keep pressing. I do not play trips!
Be careful what you wish for - player banking is allowed in California and about 5 years ago I saw a guy banking the one UTH table they had in the casino. He had to sit with enough chips in front of him to fade all the potential payouts (this place also has the 10,000-1 two-way bad beat) and ended up getting robbed at gunpoint as he was returning to his hotel.
https://abc7news.com/archive/9361560/
Several casinos have told me your average wager is the ante, the blind and the trips bet added together.
If you are playing good strategy why would you ever make a second wager (trips) that was not as good as your first?
Quote: offTopicBe careful what you wish for - player banking is allowed in California and about 5 years ago I saw a guy banking the one UTH table they had in the casino. He had to sit with enough chips in front of him to fade all the potential payouts (this place also has the 10,000-1 two-way bad beat) and ended up getting robbed at gunpoint as he was returning to his hotel.
https://abc7news.com/archive/9361560/
That's California, the worst of the worst when it comes to the US. That's another country as far as I'm concerned.
IMHO such scams are a violation of liscense, as is the "1 or 2 card from the hand" requirement (not yet seen by me, but heresay from others) that has/will take its place. /MHO
98
Quote: 98ClubsI've been reading other threaads about UTH, and see that there is the "Play Bet Required" scam by some Houses.
IMHO such scams are a violation of liscense, as is the "1 or 2 card from the hand" requirement (not yet seen by me, but heresay from others) that has/will take its place. /MHO
98
I agree it's a scam, and so does SHFL, the distributor, last I heard. The Trips bet stands alone, except you have to bet the ante/blind to bet it optionally. But it has its own house edge and there's no excuse beyond pumping up the HE of the main game thru greed.
You should be able to fold your main hand and win the trips separately when it's on the board. I only know one place I play that does that (require the Play bet to collect Trips).
Quote: beachbumbabsThe Trips bet stands alone, except you have to bet the ante/blind to bet it optionally. But it has its own house edge and there's no excuse beyond pumping up the HE of the main game thru greed.
You should be able to fold your main hand and win the trips separately when it's on the board. I only know one place I play that does that (require the Play bet to collect Trips).
I did play somewhere recently where you could just make the trips bet, like only betting pair plus in 3CP.
Quote: beachbumbabs
You should be able to fold your main hand and win the trips separately when it's on the board. I only know one place I play that does that (require the Play bet to collect Trips).
Where I used to work, we allowed you to fold and collect trips if it was on the board, but if one of your cards played for it, you had to call to get it. Funny thing is if one of your cards plays, mathematically you should be calling anyway.
Quote: DeucekiesWhere I used to work, we allowed you to fold and collect trips if it was on the board, but if one of your cards played for it, you had to call to get it. Funny thing is if one of your cards plays, mathematically you should be calling anyway.
Yeah, I would say that's a weird rule. Like if the board has trips Qs with a 5 2 ,and you have a 6 4, you should fold, even though the 6 plays. The dealer is going to win that hand 99+% of the time. Can't imagine not being paid if you didn't declare the 6. Cards talk.
I think he meant you wouldn’t get trips bonus if board had QQ and you folded a Q in your hand. Since that should never happen, I’m not sure why it’s a rule. So now I’m just confused.Quote: beachbumbabsYeah, I would say that's a weird rule. Like if the board has trips Qs with a 5 2 ,and you have a 6 4, you should fold, even though the 6 plays. The dealer is going to win that hand 99+% of the time. Can't imagine not being paid if you didn't declare the 6. Cards talk.
I actually think that's the most correct way to deal it, but it does take extra time against the HPH, so most places, you'd better know what you have. Fold is flod. I've stopped someone next to me from folding a straight or flush they didn't see after the river several times. Usually drunks, but not always.
I don't know the math but the casino's computers know all about that hold and drop stuff and from the rate at which the free drinks come around, I think the casino values its UTH players.Quote: JoemanI wonder what the casino's edge would be overall. Considering the awful play I've seen at the tables, I could easily see it in the double digits. What HE do they assume for comp calculations?
Quote: unJonI think he meant you wouldn’t get trips bonus if board had QQ and you folded a Q in your hand. Since that should never happen, I’m not sure why it’s a rule. So now I’m just confused.
This is indeed what I meant. You're right that it's a pointless rule, and I tried to make that point to my bosses, to no avail.
Quote: beachbumbabsI've stopped someone next to me from folding a straight or flush they didn't see after the river several times. Usually drunks, but not always.
One time I was betting $50/$50/$50, and tried to fold a flush I didn't know I had. The dealer had peeked at my cards and told me to look again. You better believe he got a $100 tip.
He hadn't yet put them in the rack, and I said, "well, why not correct the mistake and give them back?" And he just shrugged and said, "he folded". I was flabbergasted, really. It wasn't a rude table, the person was obviously new to the game, and they wouldn't let the cards talk? It put me off enough I cashed in and left the table.
Curious what the rest of you think about it.
I'll admit that at some point there has to be finality, but as you said the cards were not yet in the discard rack and there is no question that the dealer said 'you folded a straight' to him for a reason.Quote: beachbumbabsCurious what the rest of you think about it.
Bad day? Dealer has sore feet does he? No tokes?
He is supposed to protect the game, not the casino's money.
New player, a bit too much to drink perhaps. Maybe the dealer put in for a reward for that move?
Quote: beachbumbabsI was playing a month or so ago, and a player on the other side of the table folded. They were really bad at the game and had lost a lot of money already. As the dealer burned the cards, he fanned them to himself (I was at 1st base and saw them, too) and he said, "you folded a straight" to the player.
He hadn't yet put them in the rack, and I said, "well, why not correct the mistake and give them back?" And he just shrugged and said, "he folded". I was flabbergasted, really. It wasn't a rude table, the person was obviously new to the game, and they wouldn't let the cards talk? It put me off enough I cashed in and left the table.
Curious what the rest of you think about it.
If the dealer is going to look at the cards, he should be in a position to let the player have them back.
Chances are the house rule was "A fold is a fold", and the dealer risked a write-up if he coached the player. If that's the case, he shouldn't be peeking.
The casino flabbergasted an experienced player who was so put off by it that she immediately cashed out and left that table. So the casino is the one at risk, not the dealer. That right there defines the dealer's actions as wrong.Quote: DeucekiesChances are the house rule was "A fold is a fold", and the dealer risked a write-up
Quote: FleaStiffThe casino flabbergasted an experienced player who was so put off by it that she immediately cashed out and left that table. So the casino is the one at risk, not the dealer. That right there defines the dealer's actions as wrong.
Agreed, and that's what I believe I said. If the dealer didn't peek and say something to the player, she never would have known. He should have taken the cards and put them in the muck where they belonged without any comment.
