## Poll

 Yes -- I'm nuts for new dice games! 2 votes (20%) Call me maybe. 3 votes (30%) No -- Better bets available. 3 votes (30%) Is this next to the Dix game? No votes (0%) It's time to call a hoax a hoax. 1 vote (10%) Won't You Be My Neighbor opens today! No votes (0%) I love breaking treaties in Risk. 1 vote (10%) I hear they reduced the penetration in Flip-It. No votes (0%) I liked that hat with the five white feathers. No votes (0%) I hate all these robo calls before an election. 1 vote (10%)

10 members have voted

Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 8th, 2018 at 12:43:04 PM permalink
I just heard about a new dice game at the Crown casino in Melbourne. It is kind of like Yahtzee where five dice are rolled, holding the good ones and re-rolling the bad ones. However, there are fixed rules about what is held (only four of a kind, three of a kind, two pair, and pair). If you achieve any hand that involves all five dice, including a "no roll" (for example 1-2-3-5-6), rolling stops.

Here are the full rules from the Crown.

They call a five of a kind the "Nutz." The Nutz bet is the only one that has different pays, according to which roll it is achieved on. Here is my analysis of that:

Roll Pays Combinations Probability Return
1 100 362,797,056 0.000772 0.077160
2 or 3 25 14,752,627,200 0.031376 0.784405
Loss -1 455,069,560,320 0.967852 -0.967852
Total 470,184,984,576 1.000000 -0.106286

Here is an analysis of the other bets, which are simply win/lose. Combinations are based out of 6^15.

Bet Pays Combinations Probability Return
Pair 25 16,796,160,000 0.035722 -0.071216
Straight or No Roll 9 43,535,646,720 0.092593 -0.074074
Trips 5 72,783,360,000 0.154797 -0.071216
Two Pair 3 105,479,884,800 0.224337 -0.102652
Full House 2 148,590,028,800 0.316025 -0.051926

This was a fun math exercise to analyze. Can anyone confirm or deny my numbers?

The question for the poll is would you play Nutz?
Last edited by: Wizard on Jun 8, 2018
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
smoothgrh
• Posts: 1483
Joined: Oct 26, 2011
June 8th, 2018 at 1:01:10 PM permalink
Interesting! I'll field test this on my kids before I vote.

(When you say "no roll," do you mean "no hand"?)
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 8th, 2018 at 1:40:57 PM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

(When you say "no roll," do you mean "no hand"?)

Yes, thanks for the correction.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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Joined: Oct 14, 2009
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June 8th, 2018 at 2:16:51 PM permalink
Just tossed up a new page for Nutz. Please have a look.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Jmarch79
• Posts: 232
Joined: Apr 24, 2018
June 8th, 2018 at 4:31:12 PM permalink
Totally off topic, but whenever I see a dice based game that is not craps, it brings me back to Street Dice. Street Dice was a terrible game that appeared at Downtown Grand not long after they opened. What a terrible game it was. A loose variant of craps, but you only had three rolls to make the point. It was a terrible gimmick and didn't last long for that reason.
Wizard
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June 8th, 2018 at 4:33:35 PM permalink
Quote: Jmarch79

Totally off topic, but whenever I see a dice based game that is not craps, it brings me back to Street Dice. Street Dice was a terrible game that appeared at Downtown Grand not long after they opened. What a terrible game it was. A loose variant of craps, but you only had three rolls to make the point. It was a terrible gimmick and didn't last long for that reason.

I remember that one. I was the first to throw the dice on a real money bet in that game. If you think that game is bad, you should look at some of the field trial games out right now. I don't want to name names, but some I think are much worse than Street Dice.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Jmarch79
• Posts: 232
Joined: Apr 24, 2018
June 8th, 2018 at 4:37:34 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I remember that one. I was the first to throw the dice on a real money bet in that game. If you think that game is bad, you should look at some of the field trial games out right now. I don't want to name names, but some I think are much worse than Street Dice.

I believe you. I've seen some weird games lately. I think everyone is finally out of ideas. Golden Gate has had a roulette side bet for a while, which is different. Definitely thinking outside of the box, but no one was playing it. Roulette side bets in general seem like a bad idea...the house edge is high enough on the game, by adding side bets to that game, you're knocking players off the game quicker. Not exactly a way to get someone excited about the game.
Wizard
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June 8th, 2018 at 4:51:56 PM permalink
Quote: Jmarch79

Roulette side bets in general seem like a bad idea...the house edge is high enough on the game, by adding side bets to that game, you're knocking players off the game quicker. Not exactly a way to get someone excited about the game.

I hope DJTB doesn't read that one.

Although I preach to players that side bets are sucker bets, from a business point of view, they are necessary. A side bet in blackjack can make more profit than the base game. I work with a lot of game inventors and if they present to me a game without a side bet I'll tell them that every table game director won't even consider it until they add some. That is where the money is -- for the casino. At some point a house edge can be too high where players lose too quickly, but most people in table game management are more worried about being too liberal.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Pg80
• Posts: 2
Joined: May 16, 2018
June 9th, 2018 at 12:21:36 AM permalink
Thanks for working your maths machine on this. I think I'm competent at eyeballing a bet to be reasonable odds. I had a lot trouble eyeballing this one. When I suggested it to you, I hadn't actually played it as I wasn't comfortable with not knowing and real numbers on it. I'd consider a full house bet if I was feeling lucky and had few bucks to get rid of.
This game is one of four games at the "new games lab" at Crown. The other three are s7reak, pokerbo and dice duel.
I've played the s7reak "no streak bet" and find the low house edge to be worth playing. Dice duel to me seems no different to betting black or red on a roulette wheel (similar house edge). Pokerbo isn't worth playing the two 1:1 bets, but I have managed some small success on the 13:1 two pairs bet.
Once again thank you for putting the time into this.
MrCasinoGames
• Posts: 13264
Joined: Sep 13, 2010
June 9th, 2018 at 2:42:04 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Although I preach to players that side bets are sucker bets, from a business point of view, they are necessary. A side bet in blackjack can make more profit than the base game. I work with a lot of game inventors and if they present to me a game without a side bet I'll tell them that every table game director won't even consider it until they add some. That is where the money is -- for the casino. At some point a house edge can be too high where players lose too quickly, but most people in table game management are more worried about being too liberal.

++1

I believe the next big thing for Table Game is a Good Roulette Side-bet/Side-game.

I believe in Roulette (Side-Bets/Side-Games) so much that I have the Patent for Roulette Side-Bets/Side-Games ©2008. US7,686,306 https://buff.ly/2HR95d6 Self-Read: https://buff.ly/2KuoEp0

Roulette Side-Bets/Side-Games Patent US7,686,306:
A method and apparatus of playing a variation of Roulette, permit a player to place a bet on the outcome of a spin of the Roulette wheel in combination with the outcome of one or more other random events.

P.S. I hope Companies stop using Games and/or IP's without license (It takes a lot of money, time and hard work for a table game to be successful).

Today I have a lot of Roulette Side-Bets based on this Patent:
Flush Roulette®. Anchor® Bonus™. Roulette Times®. Range Roulette®. Master Match®. ​​Flush Bonus®. Flush Plus®. Straight Plus® Double Hit®. Double Strike®. ​Double Barrel®. Colour Win®. Hybrid Bonus®. Roulette Flush®. Suits Roulette®. Jackpot Neighbours®. My Neighbour®. Jackpot Streets®.Jackpot Finals® Roulette-18® Plus™. Roulette-9® Plus™, and Others.
Last edited by: MrCasinoGames on Jun 9, 2018
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 9th, 2018 at 6:13:30 PM permalink
Quote: Pg80

The other three are s7reak, pokerbo and dice duel.

The Crown in Melbourne has got to be one of the best casinos in the world for new games. The first two of those I already analyzed. Dice Duel was an easy analysis. I will probably write it up tomorrow.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MrCasinoGames
• Posts: 13264
Joined: Sep 13, 2010
June 10th, 2018 at 12:18:08 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The Crown in Melbourne has got to be one of the best casinos in the world for new games. The first two of those I already analyzed. Dice Duel was an easy analysis. I will probably write it up tomorrow.

Wizard,

There is a live-Dealer Dice-game call (Dice Duel) too by BetGames.tv
Here is a link to the demo page: https://buff.ly/2JFs6Q2
Below are the Rules

The Question is:
1. Is this the same game?
2. Who launched it first and is it one copy the other?

* I think it is the same game, but a Different way to get the House-Edge.

SHORT DESCRIPTION
“Dice Duel” is a simple real time dice–rolling game adapted for betting with a wide selection of outcomes.

GAME PROCESS
Two – one red and one blue dice with sides numbered from 1 to 6 pips are used in the game. The presenter puts the dice into a dice box, shuffles and rolls them on the game table. Dice are rolled only once during a draw except in special cases when the roll has to be repeated. A roll is deemed to have taken place when both dice stand on one of their sides and clearly make a two dice combination. The result of the draw is the two dice combination determined by the color of the dice and the pip numbers on the top side of each dice after they are rolled on the table.

There is only one betting round and players can place their bets on all available outcomes for the upcoming draw. A betting round takes place between the game draws and lasts about two minutes. Draws of the game run every 3 minutes daily.

GAME RULES
1. Terms:

1.1. A dice – a small cube with each side having a different number of pips ranging from 1 to 6 rolled in order to generate a random number.
1.2. Dice set – a set of 2 dice in which one dice is red and another is blue.
1.3. Spare dice set – a set of 2 dice in which one dice is red and another is blue and that is visible in the picture.
1.4. Dice box – a container used to hold, shake and roll the dice.
1.5. Game table – a special downward sloping table with lighting and a marked place for the lucky combination to be placed.
1.6. Lucky combination – the result of the draw determined after the dice have been rolled in the place for the lucky combination on the game table.
1.7. Odds – numerical expression which is multiplied by the player’s stake to calculate the winnings.

2. Rules:

2.1. The presenter of the game puts the dice into the dice box, shakes and rolls the dice on the game table during a live broadcast.
2.2. Set in which one of two dice is red and another is blue with sides numbered from 1 to 6 pips are used for the game.
2.3. Dice are rolled only once during a draw except in special cases when the roll has to be repeated (see 5).
2.4. A roll is deemed to have taken place when both dice stand in the place for the lucky combination on one of their sides and clearly make a two dice combination.
2.5. The result of the draw is the two dice combination determined by:
2.5.1. the pip numbers on the top side of the dice after they have been rolled on the table;
2.5.2. the colour of both dice.
2.6. Presenter identifies the lucky combination by non–changing rules.
2.7. Dice Duel combinations (36):

3. Gameplay:
3.1. There is only one betting round and players can place their bets on all available outcomes for the upcoming draw.
3.1.1. A betting round takes place between the game draws and lasts about two minutes. When the ongoing draw is finished, the betting round for the next draw immediately starts. The broadcast starts after the end of the betting round.

4. Betting limits:
4.1. Maximum and minimum betting limits are determined by the gambling company.

5. Special cases:
5.1. Cancelled draws:
5.1.1. Draws can be cancelled due to technical failures: internet connection problems, technical problems in the studio or presenter’s mistakes;
5.1.2. Presenter‘s mistakes that can end up with cancelled draws:
5.1.2.1. Dice fall off the table before, during or after the repeated roll;
5.1.2.2. During repeated roll dice stops on its edge after the roll;
5.1.2.3. During repeated roll dice does not stand fully on one of its sides;
5.1.2.4. During repeated roll a dice combination cannot be determined (see 2.7.);
5.1.2.5. After the repeated roll one, or more than one dice fully, or partially covers line of marked zone for lucky combination;
5.2. A repeated roll must be performed if:
5.2.1. Dice stops on its edge after the roll;
5.2.2. Dice does not stand fully on one of its sides;
5.2.3. A dice combination cannot be determined (see 2.7.).
5.2.4. After the roll one, or more than one dice fully, or partially covers line of marked zone for lucky combination;
5.2.5. Dice falls off the table before, during or after the first roll;
5.3. Video and audio streaming do not match or do not exist.
5.3.1. If sound is lost during the broadcast or the presenter announces the wrong winning combination, the correct draw outcomes are determined by the video broadcast.
5.3.2. If a player cannot see the live broadcast due to technical reasons at their end (no internet connection, no electricity etc.) but the broadcast can be found in the archive, draw is deemed to have taken place.
5.3.3. Results of each draw and archive for the broadcasts can be found on the game organizer’s website.

6. Game organization procedure:
6.1. Game draws run 24/7 every 3 minutes with maintenance breaks on demand.
6.1.1. Organizer has the right to change the time and duration of the broadcasts.

7. Equipment used in the game:
7.1. A set of 2 dice (see 1.2).
7.2. A spare set of 2 dice (see 1.3).
7.3. A dice box (see 1.4).
7.4. A game table (see 1.5).
Last edited by: MrCasinoGames on Jun 10, 2018
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
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June 10th, 2018 at 4:55:37 AM permalink
Thanks for bringing that game to my attention. It is the same basic concept where you bet which of two dice will be greater. The version you mention has much more side betting.

Please try to keep the copy and pastes shorter next time.

Also, if you know anyone with that company, please tell them the singular of dice is die.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MrCasinoGames
• Posts: 13264
Joined: Sep 13, 2010
June 10th, 2018 at 5:08:27 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks for bringing that game to my attention. It is the same basic concept where you bet which of two dice will be greater. The version you mention has much more side betting.

Please try to keep the copy and pastes shorter next time.

Also, if you know anyone with that company, please tell them the singular of dice is die.

I think It is a bit long too.

I have now shorten it a little (I will keep them shorter) next time I copy and pastes).

I don't know this Company, I thought you might know them.
Last edited by: MrCasinoGames on Jun 10, 2018
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
BleedingChipsSlowly
• Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
June 10th, 2018 at 6:53:29 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

... This was a fun math exercise to analyze. Can anyone confirm or deny my numbers? ...

Confirmed, did it from scratch, was fun!
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
June 10th, 2018 at 8:30:55 AM permalink
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Confirmed, did it from scratch, was fun!

Thank you!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
smoothgrh
• Posts: 1483
Joined: Oct 26, 2011
June 17th, 2018 at 3:46:49 PM permalink
For our Fathers Day gathering, I dealt my family 25 games of Nutz!

It took about five games for them to “get it” because the first three games ended on one roll. But after they discovered that the hands can change, it got a little lively. We even got a Nutz, which was exciting, but nobody bet it! We actually got 2 Nutz in 25 games, which greatly bucked the odds. We had a few "no hands," so people were betting and winning on that. Everyone seemed to enjoy rolling the dice. But we started getting more full houses than usual, so there were a lot of collective groans—because nobody was betting that—and I could tell they were getting bored.

In summary, I felt like this game resembled Sigma Derby in that you have 8 different bets (except they're all fixed odds) that you can make in varying amounts. As the dice hands develop, it was like watching a horse race, and you could feel the anticipation build. When the hand was finalized, the players scanned their wagers to see if their bet came in—resulting in glee or disappointment. My mother-in-law got the only 25-1 Nutz win!
Game # Result Winning bets
1 full house none
2 no hand \$2
3 no hand \$1,\$2
4 pair \$1,\$1,\$3
5 3 of a kind \$3,\$1
6 Nutz none
7 no hand \$3,\$1
8 3 of a kind \$1
9 4 of a kind \$2
10 3 of a kind \$1
11 full house none
12 full house none
13 no hand \$2,\$1,\$1
14 full house none
15 full house \$1
16 full house \$1
17 two pair none
18 Nutz \$1
19 3 of a kind \$1
20 no hand \$3
21 full house \$3
22 full house none
23 two pair \$2
24 4 of a kind \$1
25 two pair none

Everyone started with \$50 in chips (one brother-in-law bet—and lost—big and had to re-buy), and I asked them afterward whether they’d play this game in a real casino.

Player Wins/Losses Would Play in a Casino
Mrs. Smooth Lost \$50 No
BIL #1 Lost \$100 No
Mom-in-law Won \$35 No
BIL #2 Won \$50 Yes

I would play this game in a real casino maybe once for the experience and if I felt loosey goosey with \$20. My mother-in-law’s advice: Play until you win a certain amount, then quit!

discflicker
• Posts: 459
Joined: Jan 1, 2011
June 18th, 2018 at 1:30:33 AM permalink
Quote: MrCasinoGames

I believe in Roulette (Side-Bets/Side-Games) so much that I have the Patent for Roulette Side-Bets/Side-Games ©2008. US7,686,306 https://buff.ly/2HR95d6 Self-Read: https://buff.ly/2KuoEp0

Roulette Side-Bets/Side-Games Patent US7,686,306:
A method and apparatus of playing a variation of Roulette, permit a player to place a bet on the outcome of a spin of the Roulette wheel in combination with the outcome of one or more other random events.

P.S. I hope Companies stop using Games and/or IP's without license (It takes a lot of money, time and hard work for a table game to be successful).

Today I have a lot of Roulette Side-Bets based on this Patent:
Flush Roulette®. Anchor® Bonus™. Roulette Times®. Range Roulette®. Master Match®. ​​Flush Bonus®. Flush Plus®. Straight Plus® Double Hit®. Double Strike®. ​Double Barrel®. Colour Win®. Hybrid Bonus®. Roulette Flush®. Suits Roulette®. Jackpot Neighbours®. My Neighbour®. Jackpot Streets®.Jackpot Finals® Roulette-18® Plus™. Roulette-9® Plus™, and Others.

It generalizes the methodology of side-bets and uniquely claims it when it multiple side bets mappings are distributed to multiple games being played concurrently.
The difference between zero and the smallest possible number? It doesn't matter; once you cross that edge, it might as well be the difference between zero and 1. The difference between infinity and reality? They are mutually exclusive.
samui
• Posts: 2
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June 18th, 2018 at 1:37:48 AM permalink
looks like interesting game
MrCasinoGames
• Posts: 13264
Joined: Sep 13, 2010
June 18th, 2018 at 2:16:05 AM permalink
Quote: discflicker

It generalizes the methodology of side-bets and uniquely claims it when it multiple side bets mappings are distributed to multiple games being played concurrently.

Thanks Discflicker for this info,

It Looks like they are infringing my Patent US7,686,306: https://buff.ly/2KuoEp0
Foreign Application Priority Data: Apr 13, 2007 [GB]

You can see that my Patent: Foreign Application Priority Data: Apr 13, 2007 [GB]

My Patent US7,686,306 is Over a year before the Patent US8246446
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
discflicker
• Posts: 459
Joined: Jan 1, 2011
June 18th, 2018 at 2:37:24 AM permalink
Sorry for participating in the hijacking this thread with this patent discussion.
Quote: MrCasinoGames

Thanks Discflicker for this info,

It Looks like they are infringing my Patent US7,686,306: https://buff.ly/2KuoEp0
Foreign Application Priority Data: Apr 13, 2007 [GB]

You can see that my Patent: Foreign Application Priority Data: Apr 13, 2007 [GB]

My Patent US7,686,306 is Over a year before the Patent US8246446

Does your patent specify multiple concurrent distributions of the mapping? When I first applied, it got rejected because of prior art such as your patent. But then we changed it, specifying multiple concurrent mapping and distribution, and that's what makes it unique. (Marty Wollner)
The difference between zero and the smallest possible number? It doesn't matter; once you cross that edge, it might as well be the difference between zero and 1. The difference between infinity and reality? They are mutually exclusive.
Ayecarumba
• Posts: 6763
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
June 18th, 2018 at 9:22:11 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

...Here is an analysis of the other bets, which are simply win/lose. Combinations are based out of 6^15.

Bet Pays Combinations Probability Return
Pair 25 16,796,160,000 0.035722 -0.071216
Straight or No Roll 9 43,535,646,720 0.092593 -0.074074
Trips 5 72,783,360,000 0.154797 -0.071216
Two Pair 3 105,479,884,800 0.224337 -0.102652
Full House 2 148,590,028,800 0.316025 -0.051926

This was a fun math exercise to analyze. Can anyone confirm or deny my numbers?

The question for the poll is would you play Nutz?

Can someone please explain why a full house pays less than two pair (and therefore should be easier to make)? Is it a function of the rule that if you have two pair you continue rolling, but if a full house you stop?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
smoothgrh
• Posts: 1483
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June 18th, 2018 at 9:41:47 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Can someone please explain why a full house pays less than two pair (and therefore should be easier to make)? Is it a function of the rule that if you have two pair you continue rolling, but if a full house you stop?

Yes, if you get a full house on the first roll, you stop rolling. If you get two pair, you have a 1/3 chance of a full house on the second roll and also/or on the third roll. I remember in one game, everyone was hoping to avoid a full house on the third roll, but it emerged.
MrGoldenSun
• Posts: 252
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July 3rd, 2018 at 9:01:43 AM permalink
Seems kind of complicated. I LIKE games that are somewhat complicated and take a long time to resolve, but I'm not sure if the general populace does. I feel like this one may be a bit too complex to explain concisely. I'd probably play it a time or two for the heck of it.
Wizard
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July 3rd, 2018 at 9:56:04 AM permalink
Quote: MrGoldenSun

Seems kind of complicated.

Welcome back! Long time no see.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MrGoldenSun
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July 3rd, 2018 at 10:09:58 AM permalink
Thanks! Glad to be back! The fact my absence was even noticed says something pretty good or pretty bad about me...hoping it's the former. :)
beachbumbabs
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July 3rd, 2018 at 11:16:40 AM permalink
Quote: MrGoldenSun

Thanks! Glad to be back! The fact my absence was even noticed says something pretty good or pretty bad about me...hoping it's the former. :)

Pretty good, I would think. Welcome back also!
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
MrGoldenSun