Flip-It (table game)
Poll
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| | 3 votes (15%) | ||
| | 2 votes (10%) | ||
| | 4 votes (20%) | ||
| | 4 votes (20%) | ||
| | 1 vote (5%) | ||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| | 2 votes (10%) | ||
| | 2 votes (10%) | ||
| | 4 votes (20%) |
20 members have voted
May 28th, 2018 at 7:38:17 AM
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There is a new game on field trial at the Rio called Flip-It. It should not be confused with the arcade game flip it, where a quarter is flipped onto a pile of other quarters and you hope it will cause some to be pushed over the ledge while not landing in the gutters.
No, this is a totally different game, using cards. You can try the Flip-It web site, but it is perhaps not the best new game web site I've ever seen *ahem*. Still, at least they have a web site. Most game inventors don't bother making one. Before you telling me how much my videos stink and are totally lacking in talent, I hope you'll watch the ones on this video first.
For what is supposed to be a simple game, I still have quite a few questions on the rules. Namely:
The question for the poll is would you play Flip-It?
No, this is a totally different game, using cards. You can try the Flip-It web site, but it is perhaps not the best new game web site I've ever seen *ahem*. Still, at least they have a web site. Most game inventors don't bother making one. Before you telling me how much my videos stink and are totally lacking in talent, I hope you'll watch the ones on this video first.
For what is supposed to be a simple game, I still have quite a few questions on the rules. Namely:
- What happens to the odd, even, high, and low bets when an ace is the fifth card? I assume a push but am not sure.
- Does the player bet the poker bet before or after the four-card flop?
- If the player can bet the poker bet after the flop, what is to prevent him from only betting on premium hands, like a four of a kind on the flop?
- What is with the rule about the first card moving to the fourth position if the fifth card is a joker?
- What's the penetration (shut up Wiz!)?
The question for the poll is would you play Flip-It?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 28th, 2018 at 7:47:39 AM
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I looked at the felt and was immediately not interested. Too busy, too many bets. I'd walk away.
May 28th, 2018 at 9:02:34 AM
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Def too many bets. Agree there.
I take more issue with the base game HE. However, that would change with the answers to a couple of questions.
As Wizard said, what happens with an Ace flip to Odd/Even and High/low?
"Flip" seems to be specific to the 5th card. What if a joker is among the first 4 cards? Do all bets lose, or is the hand just redealt? Maybe the joker is replaced, with or without penalty?
24 jokers is 3/deck.That's a LOT for a loser salted in, and yet they still don't pay Aces, for a further HE boost.
At what point do they redeal the base hand, or do they just keep using the same cards sliding over? If they only got 1/4 penetration in 2 hours, seems like they must just keep sliding. The website script is indefinite.
10:1 for rank payoff is ridiculously low. That bet, with the deck as constructed, pays 1 in 13.75 times, or 7.273% of the time per number. My brain is sludge this morning, so help, but isn't that about a 10% HE? Or worse? I'm getting a 72% RTP at 10:1. Is that even legal in Vegas?
I could probably figure out some of the answers if I watched the videos, but I'm not up for it yet.
Sidebar: allergies are God's way of saying "Here's the hangover. You might as well drink snd enjoy the night before, cuz the morning's gonna suck anyway".
Edit: Really not fond of FH paying less than 3oak. How is that mathematically correct? Maybe it's a function of the game mechanism, sliding the hand, but seems more like non-poker players building a paytable. And not paying F/S/SF? And then paying a RF? Bizarre sop to non-poker players at the expense of the odds. Poker player or not, anybody can tell when 5 cards are in the same suit. Maybe 5 in a straight are slightly harder, but still grade-school level observation.
Really good question about the bonus bet. Can you jump on after there's a sure winner in the hand, to be slid? Does your Bonus bet ride if it wins and the hand slides? Can you increase it? Seems extremely vulnerable with the rules as they're written.
I take more issue with the base game HE. However, that would change with the answers to a couple of questions.
As Wizard said, what happens with an Ace flip to Odd/Even and High/low?
"Flip" seems to be specific to the 5th card. What if a joker is among the first 4 cards? Do all bets lose, or is the hand just redealt? Maybe the joker is replaced, with or without penalty?
24 jokers is 3/deck.That's a LOT for a loser salted in, and yet they still don't pay Aces, for a further HE boost.
At what point do they redeal the base hand, or do they just keep using the same cards sliding over? If they only got 1/4 penetration in 2 hours, seems like they must just keep sliding. The website script is indefinite.
10:1 for rank payoff is ridiculously low. That bet, with the deck as constructed, pays 1 in 13.75 times, or 7.273% of the time per number. My brain is sludge this morning, so help, but isn't that about a 10% HE? Or worse? I'm getting a 72% RTP at 10:1. Is that even legal in Vegas?
I could probably figure out some of the answers if I watched the videos, but I'm not up for it yet.
Sidebar: allergies are God's way of saying "Here's the hangover. You might as well drink snd enjoy the night before, cuz the morning's gonna suck anyway".
Edit: Really not fond of FH paying less than 3oak. How is that mathematically correct? Maybe it's a function of the game mechanism, sliding the hand, but seems more like non-poker players building a paytable. And not paying F/S/SF? And then paying a RF? Bizarre sop to non-poker players at the expense of the odds. Poker player or not, anybody can tell when 5 cards are in the same suit. Maybe 5 in a straight are slightly harder, but still grade-school level observation.
Really good question about the bonus bet. Can you jump on after there's a sure winner in the hand, to be slid? Does your Bonus bet ride if it wins and the hand slides? Can you increase it? Seems extremely vulnerable with the rules as they're written.
Last edited by: beachbumbabs on May 28, 2018
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
May 28th, 2018 at 9:28:15 AM
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Quote: WizardThere is a new game on field trial at the Rio called Flip-It. It should not be confused with the arcade game flip it, where a quarter is flipped onto a pile of other quarters and you hope it will cause some to be pushed over the ledge while not landing in the gutters.
No, this is a totally different game, using cards. You can try the Flip-It web site, but it is perhaps not the best new game web site I've ever seen *ahem*. Still, at least they have a web site. Most game inventors don't bother making one. Before you telling me how much my videos stink and are totally lacking in talent, I hope you'll watch the ones on this video first.
For what is supposed to be a simple game, I still have quite a few questions on the rules. Namely:
- What happens to the odd, even, high, and low bets when an ace is the fifth card? I assume a push but am not sure.
- Does the player bet the poker bet before or after the four-card flop?
- If the player can bet the poker bet after the flop, what is to prevent him from only betting on premium hands, like a four of a kind on the flop?
- What is with the rule about the first card moving to the fourth position if the fifth card is a joker?
- What's the penetration (shut up Wiz!)?
The question for the poll is would you play Flip-It?
Another example of a terrible game that must have a inventor/Casino pre-existing relationship. This game has zero chance of making it.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
May 28th, 2018 at 12:39:45 PM
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Quote: WizardBefore you telling me how much my videos stink and are totally lacking in talent, I hope you'll watch the ones on this video first.
I agree - there is so much background noise in those Flip-it videos that all speech is unintelligible. These are many rungs below your videos on the "quality ladder." I did think the female dealer had nice photogenic hands, though. (LOL)
Quote: WizardWhat happens to the odd, even, high, and low bets when an ace is the fifth card? I assume a push but am not sure.
Actually, I assumed they were all lost, but I don't know. (Edit: after more thought, it makes more sense to me that they would be a push.)
Quote: WizardDoes the player bet the poker bet before or after the four-card flop?
I am uncertain that player makes a poker bet at all. Where would the poker bet be placed on that table? (Maybe on the Letter B for Bonus?) The text describes the bets that can be made and a bet on the poker hand is not mentioned. I thought the poker hand payoffs were bonus payoffs on any other money placed. Look at it this way: when a joker comes out all the Call-It and Inside Bets automatically lose but may earn a bonus payout if the joker helps to make a poker hand of 2 pair or higher from the five cards on the table.
I mean the "Poker Hand" Bonus payout is very low, even with wild cards in the deck and also makes no sense.
Royal = 50-1
5oaK = 14-1
4oak = 7-1
3oak = 6-1
Full House = 5-1 (A boat should also qualify as the higher-paying 3oaK? )
2 pair = 2-1
So if you get a full house would it payout at 5-1 or 6-1?
If the 4-card board is 9-9-5-5 why wouldn't you bet table maximum in every way you can?
Quote: WizardWhat is with the rule about the first card moving to the fourth position if the fifth card is a joker?
I think you may have misread it (and it is a terribly-worded explanation.) After each flip-it card appears the "oldest card" on the table goes to discard and the flip-it card remains as the newest card. Thus, if the flip-it card is a joker it will be on the table for four more chances at a good poker hand.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on May 28, 2018
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 28th, 2018 at 12:43:32 PM
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Quote: gordonm888I agree - there is so much background noise in those Flip-it videos that all speech is unintelligible. These are many rungs below your videos on the "quality ladder." I did think the female dealer had nice photogenic hands, though. (LOL)
Actually, I assumed they were all lost, but I don't know.
I am uncertain that player makes a poker bet at all. Where would the poker bet be placed on that table? (Maybe on the Letter B for Bonus?) The text describes the bets that can be made and a bet on the poker hand is not mentioned. I thought the poker hand payoffs were bonus payoffs on any other money placed. Look at it this way: when a joker comes out all the bets on ranks and colors automatically lose but may earn a bonus payout if the joker helps to make a poker hand of 2 pair or higher from the five cards on the table.
I mean the "Poker Hand" Bonus payout is very low, even with wild cards in the deck and also makes no sense.
Royal = 50-1
5oaK = 14-1
4oak = 7-1
3oak = 6-1
Full House = 5-1 (A boat should also qualify as the higher-paying 3oaK? )
2 pair = 2-1
So if you get a full house would it payout at 5-1 or 6-1?
If the 4-card board is 9-9-5-5 why wouldn't you bet table maximum in every way you can?
I think you may have misread it (and it is a terribly-worded explanation.) After each flip-it card appears the "oldest card" on the table goes to discard and the flip-it card remains as the newest card. Thus, if the flip-it card is a joker it will be on the table for four more chances at a good poker hand.
Where does it say a joker fills anything for a bonus payout? I missed it. AFAICT, a joker simply kills the hand for everyone, but possibly only in the flip position?
What a muddle.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
May 28th, 2018 at 12:46:34 PM
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Quote: gordonm888I did think the female dealer had nice photogenic hands, though. (LOL)
Good one!
Thanks for the compliment on my videos and your help trying to sort out the rules.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 28th, 2018 at 1:35:12 PM
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Yes, I agree it is badly muddled. Whoever wrote this was not an A student in school.
Because the bonus "poker" payout shows a payout for 5oaK, I was assuming that a joker acts as a wild card. But I just realized that with 8 decks a poker hand of 5oaK is certainly possible without resorting to Wild cards.
But, on the other hand, if the joker remains on the table and doesn't count as a wild then your chances of any kind of a poker payout are much smaller still.
The payoffs on these wagers are so bad, that I assume that the poker hand must be a bonus and the jokers play as a wild card.
Example: With a fresh shoe, if you place a wager on a specific rank (that is not one of the ranks in the 4 cards on the table) the probability of the Flip-It card being that rank is 0.0734 with a payout of 10-1 when you win. That is a house edge greater than 26%.
The so-called inside bets (Red, Black, Even, Odd, High, Low) all lose when a joker appears (5.45% of the time when no joker is on the board); otherwise the Inside Bets are Even Money wagers.
From a game design viewpoint, I imagine those bets have a house edge that is too large. It makes sense that the poker bet would be a bonus payout of some sort.
Because the bonus "poker" payout shows a payout for 5oaK, I was assuming that a joker acts as a wild card. But I just realized that with 8 decks a poker hand of 5oaK is certainly possible without resorting to Wild cards.
But, on the other hand, if the joker remains on the table and doesn't count as a wild then your chances of any kind of a poker payout are much smaller still.
The payoffs on these wagers are so bad, that I assume that the poker hand must be a bonus and the jokers play as a wild card.
Example: With a fresh shoe, if you place a wager on a specific rank (that is not one of the ranks in the 4 cards on the table) the probability of the Flip-It card being that rank is 0.0734 with a payout of 10-1 when you win. That is a house edge greater than 26%.
The so-called inside bets (Red, Black, Even, Odd, High, Low) all lose when a joker appears (5.45% of the time when no joker is on the board); otherwise the Inside Bets are Even Money wagers.
From a game design viewpoint, I imagine those bets have a house edge that is too large. It makes sense that the poker bet would be a bonus payout of some sort.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 28th, 2018 at 2:08:35 PM
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Quote: Wizard
For what is supposed to be a simple game, I still have quite a few questions on the rules. Namely:
- What happens to the odd, even, high, and low bets when an ace is the fifth card? I assume a push but am not sure.
- Does the player bet the poker bet before or after the four-card flop?
- If the player can bet the poker bet after the flop, what is to prevent him from only betting on premium hands, like a four of a kind on the flop?
- What is with the rule about the first card moving to the fourth position if the fifth card is a joker?
- What's the penetration (shut up Wiz!)?
1- no clue
2- after and only if there is a pair, 2 pair, trips, quads, or 4 to a royal in the 4 card flop as you only get paid if the flip card makes a hand. For example 3 kings and a four on board. The player will win 7 to 1 if a king flips or 5 to 1 if a four flips and loose if anything else flips.
3-see 2
4- no clue, but I would think they would burn it instead
5- I finally got around to timing my Rubik's cube solving time. My best was 4 minutes 39 seconds. I need to get faster at f2l.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
May 28th, 2018 at 2:37:34 PM
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Quote: miplet
2- after and only if there is a pair, 2 pair, trips, quads, or 4 to a royal in the 4 card flop as you only get paid if the flip card makes a hand. For example 3 kings and a four on board. The player will win 7 to 1 if a king flips or 5 to 1 if a four flips and loose if anything else flips.
miplet, in your example in which there are 3 kings and a four on board, if the flip-it card is a nine, you are saying that the 3 kings on the board do NOT qualify as a 3oaK? Because the flip-it card must be involved in the poker hand in some other way than as a singleton?
So if the first 5 cards on the board are all fives you win 14:1 and then on the next hand you will only get a poker bonus if the flip-it card is another five (paying off 14:1?). Holy Markov Chain, Batman.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 28th, 2018 at 4:10:33 PM
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If I swap the payouts on 3oak and Full House, use miplet's rule that the Flip-it card must be a non-singleton in the poker hand, assume that jokers are neither wild nor are pairable when evaluating poker hands, and assume that this is a bonus payout for the bets on the Call-It or Inside Wagers, then:
I get that the "poker bonus" = 0.2223 on the first hand dealt from the shoe.
That's too big to be a sweetener for adjusting the HE. Maybe I screwed up the calculation, or maybe (probably) the assumptions are wrong.
I get that the "poker bonus" = 0.2223 on the first hand dealt from the shoe.
That's too big to be a sweetener for adjusting the HE. Maybe I screwed up the calculation, or maybe (probably) the assumptions are wrong.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 28th, 2018 at 8:59:24 PM
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I have a spy going to check out the game tomorrow. Will report back.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 29th, 2018 at 12:03:50 PM
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1. What happens to the odd, even, high, and low bets when an ace is the fifth card? I assume a push but am not sure.
(edit) according to my source, an ace is a loss. My gut feeling is that it was meant to be a push but they are doing it wrong.
2. Does the player bet the poker bet before or after the four-card flop?
after. It isn't offered if it doesn't have a chance of winning.
3. If the player can bet the poker bet after the flop, what is to prevent him from only betting on premium hands, like a four of a kind on the flop?
The flip it card has to be part of the winning combination
4. What is with the rule about the first card moving to the fourth position if the fifth card is a joker?
If 5th card is a joker, it is burned after losing bets are collected
5. What's the penetration (shut up Wiz!)?
Terrible. (cut off 3.5 decks or so). Oh and shut up Wiz!
(edit) My quick calcs for the inside bets have HE at ~12.7% on the inside bets. I don't think this game is as countable as it intuitively seems with the bad penetration.
(edit) according to my source, an ace is a loss. My gut feeling is that it was meant to be a push but they are doing it wrong.
2. Does the player bet the poker bet before or after the four-card flop?
after. It isn't offered if it doesn't have a chance of winning.
3. If the player can bet the poker bet after the flop, what is to prevent him from only betting on premium hands, like a four of a kind on the flop?
The flip it card has to be part of the winning combination
4. What is with the rule about the first card moving to the fourth position if the fifth card is a joker?
If 5th card is a joker, it is burned after losing bets are collected
5. What's the penetration (shut up Wiz!)?
Terrible. (cut off 3.5 decks or so). Oh and shut up Wiz!
(edit) My quick calcs for the inside bets have HE at ~12.7% on the inside bets. I don't think this game is as countable as it intuitively seems with the bad penetration.
Last edited by: jopke on May 29, 2018
May 29th, 2018 at 4:16:24 PM
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Okay guys, I just sent somebody to investigate the rules. It took a few calls to get them straight, even with the aid of a rule card. That said, I just wrote them up as best I can in my new page on Flip-It. An analysis is coming soon. For now, please let me know if any rules are unclear or you catch any typos.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 29th, 2018 at 6:48:19 PM
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Wiz, you forgot to do an analysis of the Bonus Bet when the four cards on the board are 2 Pair. (Edit: the 2 Pair table is there, it is just mislabeled.)
Edit: Also, the Call-It Bet Analysis Table is mislabeled .
When it comes to House Edge, this games sucks broadly and deeply.
Edit: Also, the Call-It Bet Analysis Table is mislabeled .
When it comes to House Edge, this games sucks broadly and deeply.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 29th, 2018 at 7:02:53 PM
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Also, your analysis of the Call-It Bet applies only to ranks that are not among the 4 cards showing on the board. Obviously, if there is a 6 on the board and you make a Call-It bet on 6 the House Edge will be even larger than 20%. I think this is a stupid game and you don't need to analyze all the possible Call it Bets (e.g., the board is 4 eights and for some unimaginable reason you make a call-it bet on eight - if you do that then you deserve to eat dirt and go directly to the Ploppie Hall-of-Fame.)
The 'tension" in this game is probably meant to be that you notice that a 7 hasn't come out yet -or that few Reds have come out, and try to take advantage of that observation with your wagers.
The 'tension" in this game is probably meant to be that you notice that a 7 hasn't come out yet -or that few Reds have come out, and try to take advantage of that observation with your wagers.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 29th, 2018 at 7:35:15 PM
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After some thought, it may be that you have not analyzed this game fairly.
Yes, from the outset of the 8 deck shoe every single one of the 12 Call-It Bets, and the 6 Inside Bets (the Red, Black, High, Low, Odd, and Even Bets) are massively - EV. But this game is entirely about penetration.
After 50 or 100 cards have been dealt, what are the odds that at least one of those 12 call-it bets and 6 Inside bets will be +EV? What about after 150 cards? Your worst HE is with a full-shoe but as cards come out you will gain more information and will always have a smaller HE by picking the best of the 18 bets -and at some frequency, one or more of those 18 bets will go +EV before you reach the cut card.
Yes, if there is a Royal Flush draw on the Board with the first four cards of the shoe then the Bonus Bet is -EV. But at what penetration does the RF-draw Bonus bet become +EV if you haven't yet seen the card that is needed for the royal? Ditto for the other scenarios for the Bonus Bet -each one becomes +EV if enough cards have gone by and you haven't yet seen any of the cards that are needed to make a poker hand with a payout. Maybe that is what you should analyze and tell your readers.
I think that's why this game has so many possible bets - so that one or more of them will become +EV with increasing probability as you move through the shoe. The website write-up even mentions the skewed distribution of Jokers after 25% penetration in one of their trials - indicative that this game was designed for players to track/count cards and think about which of the many possible wagers is now the best one to make.
Yes, from the outset of the 8 deck shoe every single one of the 12 Call-It Bets, and the 6 Inside Bets (the Red, Black, High, Low, Odd, and Even Bets) are massively - EV. But this game is entirely about penetration.
After 50 or 100 cards have been dealt, what are the odds that at least one of those 12 call-it bets and 6 Inside bets will be +EV? What about after 150 cards? Your worst HE is with a full-shoe but as cards come out you will gain more information and will always have a smaller HE by picking the best of the 18 bets -and at some frequency, one or more of those 18 bets will go +EV before you reach the cut card.
Yes, if there is a Royal Flush draw on the Board with the first four cards of the shoe then the Bonus Bet is -EV. But at what penetration does the RF-draw Bonus bet become +EV if you haven't yet seen the card that is needed for the royal? Ditto for the other scenarios for the Bonus Bet -each one becomes +EV if enough cards have gone by and you haven't yet seen any of the cards that are needed to make a poker hand with a payout. Maybe that is what you should analyze and tell your readers.
I think that's why this game has so many possible bets - so that one or more of them will become +EV with increasing probability as you move through the shoe. The website write-up even mentions the skewed distribution of Jokers after 25% penetration in one of their trials - indicative that this game was designed for players to track/count cards and think about which of the many possible wagers is now the best one to make.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 29th, 2018 at 7:47:30 PM
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Quote: gordonm888Also, your analysis of the Call-It Bet applies only to ranks that are not among the 4 cards showing on the board. Obviously, if there is a 6 on the board and you make a Call-It bet on 6 the House Edge will be even larger than 20%. I think this is a stupid game and you don't need to analyze all the possible Call it Bets (e.g., the board is 4 eights and for some unimaginable reason you make a call-it bet on eight - if you do that then you deserve to eat dirt and go directly to the Ploppie Hall-of-Fame.)
The 'tension" in this game is probably meant to be that you notice that a 7 hasn't come out yet -or that few Reds have come out, and try to take advantage of that observation with your wagers.
That is a fair point. I thought about breaking down every bet other than the Bonus bet by the four cards on the board. In the end, I decided to not over-complicate the analysis with that, except for the Bonus Bet, where the board cards are critical to the odds. I disclaim this assumption at the beginning of the Analysis section.
Quote: Analysis sectionThis does not consider the effect of removal of the four cards on the board, nor any cards that preceded them. The astute player may wish to keep a mental record of past cards played to improve his odds *ahem*.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 29th, 2018 at 7:55:44 PM
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Quote: gordonm888After some thought, it may be that you have not analyzed this game fairly.
Yes, from the outset of the 8 deck shoe every single one of the 12 Call-It Bets, and the 6 Inside Bets (the Red, Black, High, Low, Odd, and Even Bets) are massively - EV. But this game is entirely about penetration.
Gordon, do you expect me to write a book about this game? The person I sent there today asked about penetration and the dealer said they hadn't enough players since the game launched to finish the first shoe. Also, as I just posted, I disclaimed the fact that I'm not considering the effect of removal and leave that as an exercise to the reader.
If you want to take the game beyond the basics on your own, please do! I have more information about it than I posted and am happy to share with you by PM. I deliberately didn't go too far so advantage players wouldn't jump down my throat. However, as has been just shown, I get it either way. I'm used to it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 29th, 2018 at 10:46:40 PM
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Quote: Wizard
Gordon, do you expect me to write a book about this game? The person I sent there today asked about penetration and the dealer said they hadn't enough players since the game launched to finish the first shoe. Also, as I just posted, I disclaimed the fact that I'm not considering the effect of removal and leave that as an exercise to the reader.
LOL, I actually don't like this game and wouldn't want to read a book about it. I do think it was designed to be a novel game that offers the prospect of progressively higher EV bets as you go through the shoe - its an interesting thought. But everything about this game is so amateurish -the web site and videos, the explanation of the rules, the incredibly bad HEs, the fact that you have a round of betting on every card in the shoe such that it takes several hours to get through a shoe, the payout table that has 3oaK with a higher payout than a Full House - this game doesn't have a snowball's chance in Vegas of succeeding.
Maybe you really should start a thread that is a Hall-of Fame for terrible casino games -because we have had 2 in a row (Black Jackpot and Flip-It) that are all-time stinkers.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 30th, 2018 at 6:11:47 AM
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Quote: gordonm888Maybe you really should start a thread that is a Hall-of Fame for terrible casino games -because we have had 2 in a row (Black Jackpot and Flip-It) that are all-time stinkers.
That would be fun, but a banned member took me to task via Email, saying my personal comments were too strong about this game. I should be as objective as I can in explaining the facts about a game and let the readers develop their own opinions.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 30th, 2018 at 6:18:53 AM
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Quote: WizardThat would be fun, but a banned member took me to task via Email, saying my personal comments were too strong about this game. I should be as objective as I can in explaining the facts about a game and let the readers develop their own opinions.
I would think the exact opposite as an objective developer would want your experienced opinion and the comments of others on here. Many members admit to playing Carnival games even after knowing the odds so the feedback is useful. And I know some games you have reviewed have gotten positive feedback on here.
But in the end this site is a small voice in the world and the game will not sink or swim based on reviews or comments here, but from players reactions in the casino.
Sometimes you just have to admit the game isn’t that good and use it as a learning tool to improve.
May 30th, 2018 at 6:22:09 AM
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Simply put, a terrible game. I haven't a clue why Rio would put this game on the floor....especially with the WSOP kicking off. Roll out another UTH or Texas Hold 'Em Bonus table...at least those would get some play.
Edited: Spelling Error
Edited: Spelling Error
Last edited by: Jmarch79 on May 30, 2018
May 30th, 2018 at 7:55:14 AM
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So the bonus bet pays if the hand IMPROVES according to the rules. I assume this means it must move up the scale and not simply improve the 5 card hand? An example would be the hand: 5-4-4-4-4... the 5 is then burned and the next card drawn is an Ace for 4-4-4-4-A. This hand is an improvement over the last hand, but in the same rank as the hand before.
On your "Low, High, Odd, Even" analysis you still have the "Red and Black Analysis" wording from the copied table above.
The smallest house edge bet is the red/black at over 5%... that's a pretty stiff HE game.
Lastly, I think the table design is aids. Wayyyyyyyyyy to much going on.
On your "Low, High, Odd, Even" analysis you still have the "Red and Black Analysis" wording from the copied table above.
The smallest house edge bet is the red/black at over 5%... that's a pretty stiff HE game.
Lastly, I think the table design is aids. Wayyyyyyyyyy to much going on.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
May 30th, 2018 at 8:17:42 AM
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This game gives nothing back and does nothing to entice a player.
In craps, there’s the odds bet on an already low primary bet; and in BJ, the player sometimes has the advantage in certain situations, such as a double down or a BJ. Pai Gow poker has the draw of being ultra slow and pushing on most hands.
I would argue that even popular games like 3CP have the perception of giving something back because many players think that the pair plus has a player advantage (listen to some of the statements when you don’t play the PP).
This game gives nothing and takes a lot.
In craps, there’s the odds bet on an already low primary bet; and in BJ, the player sometimes has the advantage in certain situations, such as a double down or a BJ. Pai Gow poker has the draw of being ultra slow and pushing on most hands.
I would argue that even popular games like 3CP have the perception of giving something back because many players think that the pair plus has a player advantage (listen to some of the statements when you don’t play the PP).
This game gives nothing and takes a lot.
May 30th, 2018 at 9:20:46 AM
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I agree that an objective description of the game should be included. However, given your experience, it could be possible to give an objective (factual) view about the game. For instance with food you could distinguish between high fat snacks and other healthier options.Quote: Wizard....I should be as objective as I can in explaining the facts about a game and let the readers develop their own opinions.
I think where the base game has a high HE or a side-bet is absolutely terrible this type of information would be very useful (of course many of us can work this out for ourselves, but the idea is for those who can't just want a quick indication). One way is to use a factual method like they do for food, so a game with a very High House edge might get a red warning.
Thus you might add these types of categories
(i) Base Game House Edge
(ii) Typical additional money required to play the game
(iii) Volatility (some fruit machines in the UK have this info based on three possible levels)
(iv) House Edge for typical side bets available (or two showing there are some good ones, but also terrible ones)
(v) Ease of play or difficult strategy required (e.g. Roulette=simple, Pai Gow Tiles would be complex).
Please take this as just an idea rather than any criticism of the excellent service you give as obviously it would entail a lot of additional work to add this type of information.
May 30th, 2018 at 10:15:33 AM
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Quote: RomesSo the bonus bet pays if the hand IMPROVES according to the rules. I assume this means it must move up the scale and not simply improve the 5 card hand? An example would be the hand: 5-4-4-4-4... the 5 is then burned and the next card drawn is an Ace for 4-4-4-4-A. This hand is an improvement over the last hand, but in the same rank as the hand before.
As I understand it, the hand must move up a full step on the pay table. Going from 44445 to 4444A would result in a loss on the Bonus bet.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 30th, 2018 at 10:17:09 AM
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Quote: charliepatrick
Thus you might add these types of categories
(i) Base Game House Edge
(ii) Typical additional money required to play the game
(iii) Volatility (some fruit machines in the UK have this info based on three possible levels)
(iv) House Edge for typical side bets available (or two showing there are some good ones, but also terrible ones)
(v) Ease of play or difficult strategy required (e.g. Roulette=simple, Pai Gow Tiles would be complex).
Thanks Charlie, good suggestions. Let me think on them.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 30th, 2018 at 10:21:04 AM
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Quote: WizardThat would be fun, but a banned member took me to task via Email, saying my personal comments were too strong about this game. I should be as objective as I can in explaining the facts about a game and let the readers develop their own opinions.
I disagree, at least in reference to what you have posted publicly. You have made yourself into an education resource for the best games. If this is one of the worst, you have a vast amount of experience and knowledge to voice a comparative opinion, especially since you usually quantify and detail your objections.
Please continue to weigh in while using some discretion about spoilage. I think you have this correctly.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
May 30th, 2018 at 3:06:55 PM
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Wiz, you have two kinds of posts. Your posts on the WOO page are objective, almost to a fault.
It is within your posts on the forum that you offer some opinions, usually in rather extreme cases - and I see nothing wrong with that.
And no one listens to us in the forum anyway. If the WOV forum was an industry opinion-leader, then there would be no 6/5 blackjack.
It is within your posts on the forum that you offer some opinions, usually in rather extreme cases - and I see nothing wrong with that.
And no one listens to us in the forum anyway. If the WOV forum was an industry opinion-leader, then there would be no 6/5 blackjack.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
July 7th, 2018 at 9:15:21 AM
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Anyone know if this game is still on the floor at the Rio? It's still listed as an active trial on the NGCB website.
.
August 5th, 2018 at 7:35:08 AM
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It is still on the floor. It was the only empty table game on a Saturday night. The dealer in those how-to videos is the inventor of the game.
August 8th, 2018 at 5:35:55 PM
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Quote: Brazen1It is still on the floor. It was the only empty table game on a Saturday night. The dealer in those how-to videos is the inventor of the game.
I didn't actually walk up to the game and stare at the layout that night so I don't know if this is fact or not but someone told me that the payouts for the call it bets have been changed to 12:1. If true, would this change the HE to something similar to the R/B bet, something like 5.4 percent?
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Aug 8, 2018
September 14th, 2018 at 12:28:45 PM
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What happens to the odd, even, high, and low bets when an ace is the fifth card? You lose. Only color pays out when an Ace comes up.
Does the player bet the poker bet before or after the four-card flop? After. The 5th card must be included in the poker hand.
If the player can bet the poker bet after the flop, what is to prevent him from only betting on premium hands, like a four of a kind on the flop? Unfortunately if a 4 of a kind is the flop, you need the 5th card to make it a 5 of a kind for payout. Only the 5th card can complete a hand.
What is with the rule about the first card moving to the fourth position if the fifth card is a joker? It doesn't move if a joker comes out. Joker automatically goes into the wash.
Hope this helps! I think I'm the only one who enjoys this game. The call bets are now 12-1 payout. I wouldn't bother with the poker bet as the payout is horrible. Everything in the middle is even money.
Does the player bet the poker bet before or after the four-card flop? After. The 5th card must be included in the poker hand.
If the player can bet the poker bet after the flop, what is to prevent him from only betting on premium hands, like a four of a kind on the flop? Unfortunately if a 4 of a kind is the flop, you need the 5th card to make it a 5 of a kind for payout. Only the 5th card can complete a hand.
What is with the rule about the first card moving to the fourth position if the fifth card is a joker? It doesn't move if a joker comes out. Joker automatically goes into the wash.
Hope this helps! I think I'm the only one who enjoys this game. The call bets are now 12-1 payout. I wouldn't bother with the poker bet as the payout is horrible. Everything in the middle is even money.
September 14th, 2018 at 12:51:41 PM
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I think it looks like it could be fun, but only for a few minutes at a time and for low stakes. I wouldn't bet more than $5 a go at this. Might get some more action at the Downtown casinos for like $2-$3 minimums.
Also, this immediately caught my eye: "At this moment in time, the casino industry is craving for new games."
Haha.... says who? If that's the case, then freakin' bring back Sic Bo.
Also, this immediately caught my eye: "At this moment in time, the casino industry is craving for new games."
Haha.... says who? If that's the case, then freakin' bring back Sic Bo.
September 14th, 2018 at 12:54:17 PM
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this game is surprisingly fun. You're right about the low stakes especially if you plan on doing any type of progressive betting. I would commit to the call bets and stay away from everything else.
September 16th, 2018 at 3:51:05 AM
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A floor supervisor at the Rio told me tonight that Flip It is leaving the Rio and going to MGM. I can't verify how accurate this info is because he didn't know if that meant the corporation or the casino. Does anyone know how this works for new games? If a game does not succeed in a field trial at one venue do they just try it out at another?
September 28th, 2018 at 12:11:53 AM
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So no more flip it?!?! I read some where that not too long ago the Ace card is now a push rather than a loss. I was hoping to put in another Flip it run. Please post any news of a Flip It revival. Can someone ask Tami at Rio about the whereabouts of the game? I believe she's the inventor of Flip it and she's a dealer there.
