gamerfreak
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RomesRigondeaux
August 2nd, 2017 at 8:11:12 PM permalink
By his own admission, Eliot has taken it on the chin from every side of the table. Casinos hate him because he reveals advantage plays to AP's. AP's hate him because he reveals advantage plays to Casino's. My girlfriend hates him because "Do you really need another god damn gambling book??!" - Yes.... yes I do.

Personally, as someone new to advantage play, I'm thankful to have such a concise resource at my disposal.

This book is a tome. There's 135 chapters spanning 475 pages. Eliot begins with brief explanations on what conditions need to be present for a game to be beat by counting, hole carding, edge sorting, top carding, and collusion. He then goes on to explain how to use those strategies to gain an edge in Blackjack, Baccarat, numerous proprietary table games, and nearly 100 of the most common side bets. There's also a lengthy section on beating table game promotions. Unfortunately, there's no information on machine play, but I don't think that was ever Eliot's intent.

The book also includes a few miscellaneous chapters with interesting bits of info, like an analysis of Don Johnson's plays, and a recount of a rather vicious back-rooming Eliot was unfortunate enough to experience.

It's worth noting that a large portion of the book is a printed version of AP heat. However I believe there's some new information included. Before purchasing, I would compare the blog posts to the table of contents posted on the book's website and see if it's worth the $50 price tag to you. Personally, I like reading things on ink and paper from time to time.

Another complaint I've heard about the book is that it's a ripped off re-write of James Grosejan's work. I'm not spending $1500 on a f****ng book, so I couldn't say one way or another. But from what I've heard of "the book", I'd wager that Elliot's explanations are less math intensive and more accessible to the layman. But in either case, my opinion is that math is factual information, not a creative pursuit. No one has a monopoly on the optimal strategy for hole carding 3 card poker any more than 2+2=4.

Personally, there's only a couple complaints I have with this book. First, while Eliot tells of how much hate-mail he gets for publishing this information (almost to the point of martyrdom), he also makes the the claim that that the book is written neither for AP's or Casino employees specifically, but rather for anyone who finds it interesting, and for a higher cause of making knowledge publicly available to all. However, the book is very obviously written for those responsible for protecting table games. Which is normally something I'd take much issue with, but as a reader it feels disingenuous to claim on one page "this book wasn't written for casinos, I swear!", and then start the next page with "Top 10 ways to identify an AP in your casino".

My other gripe is that there are quotes in the book taken directly from posts on this forum. I'm not sure if Eliot received permission from the OP's to re-publish their posts (I can't imagine they would grant permission given the content), but either way this just left a sour taste in my mouth.

I also wish that more was written on strategies and methods of hole/top carding and edge sorting...but I guess everything can't be handed out on a silver papery platter.

Overall, I feel that Advanced Advantage Play should be required reading for anyone with even a passing interest in gaining an edge on table games. It's certainly going to be one of the the most worn volumes in my collection.
billryan
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August 2nd, 2017 at 8:24:50 PM permalink
Could you give an example of posts lifted directly from here, I'm not visualizing this. Thanks.
I really enjoyed his Blackjack Zone book. He made math seem easy.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
gamerfreak
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August 2nd, 2017 at 8:56:44 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Could you give an example of posts lifted directly from here, I'm not visualizing this. Thanks.
I really enjoyed his Blackjack Zone book. He made math seem easy.


I just skimmed through some pages and couldn't find a direct quote like I claimed. But I did find this...




I still think I saw a verbatim quote in there, but it's possible that the above bit is what I'm remembering. I'll look a little harder tomorrow, like I mentioned this book is huge.
boymimbo
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August 2nd, 2017 at 8:57:43 PM permalink
If Eliot lifts posts from WoV I think he would need to get permission from us to do so.

I say this because when we joined WoV there are no conditions stating that we give up our copyright rights when we write something on this site. For example, if I wrote a statement regarding something factual or posted a picture that I took someone else could not take that picture or article and publish it and I believe this includes Mike or the site owners.

I looked at the forum rules and there are no rules or statements regarding copyright which to me means that our posts are copyrighted until 70 years after we die.

The whole site is Copyright Mike so at least Eliot would have to get permission from Mike and I am sure that Mike would want Eliot to get permission from each of us which he could get via PM. That would be the right and I believe legal thing to do.

Nonetheless when I saw the book for sale I thought that every casino is going to buy multiple copies of this book and I appreciate that casinos would be a major buyer of this book over the lay AP person who probably knows all of this already.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
gamerfreak
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August 2nd, 2017 at 9:25:40 PM permalink
Ah, here we go...this is what I was referencing:



Here's the post:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/2130-triple-down-promotion/18/#post19933

Quote: boymimbo

If Eliot lifts posts from WoV I think he would need to get permission from us to do so.


Copyright wise, I think the above example would be considered fair use, but IANAL.
Last edited by: gamerfreak on Aug 2, 2017
Zcore13
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August 2nd, 2017 at 10:03:04 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

If Eliot lifts posts from WoV I think he would need to get permission from us to do so.

I say this because when we joined WoV there are no conditions stating that we give up our copyright rights when we write something on this site. For example, if I wrote a statement regarding something factual or posted a picture that I took someone else could not take that picture or article and publish it and I believe this includes Mike or the site owners.

I looked at the forum rules and there are no rules or statements regarding copyright which to me means that our posts are copyrighted until 70 years after we die.

The whole site is Copyright Mike so at least Eliot would have to get permission from Mike and I am sure that Mike would want Eliot to get permission from each of us which he could get via PM. That would be the right and I believe legal thing to do.

Nonetheless when I saw the book for sale I thought that every casino is going to buy multiple copies of this book and I appreciate that casinos would be a major buyer of this book over the lay AP person who probably knows all of this already.



You don't own the post when you post here. It can be edited by a mod, it can be deleted. Back, the whole site was sold. Did you get any compensation for your "copywrited" material? The site could be deleted tomorrow. It's the owners content now, not yours.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
ssho88
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August 13th, 2017 at 7:38:50 AM permalink
He mentioned my name : ssho88 in his book ? I just want to tell him that my team still beating the games although he published it in his book simply because MOST of the casinos in this world are NOT listening to him ! LOL

p/s : I have analysed 50 to 60 more side bets than what you can find in his book !
UCivan
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August 13th, 2017 at 10:25:56 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Nonetheless when I saw the book for sale I thought that every casino is going to buy multiple copies of this book and I appreciate that casinos would be a major buyer of this book over the lay AP person who probably knows all of this already.

Most casinos have real life data from own operations day-in and out, and from other casinos. I would be surprised to see them buying this book. Well, exceptions - the new floor persons might be interested in the analysis.
Wizard
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August 13th, 2017 at 11:53:55 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

The whole site is Copyright Mike so at least Eliot would have to get permission from Mike and I am sure that Mike would want Eliot to get permission from each of us which he could get via PM. That would be the right and I believe legal thing to do.



I'm pretty sure Eliot asked permission when he was writing the book and I said "yes." So, I'll take any heat from it. I do apologize to anyone quoted who feels abused by the situation. It was not my intent to cause any hard feelings but to help out Eliot with his book.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Zcore13
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August 13th, 2017 at 12:05:48 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

Most casinos have real life data from own operations day-in and out, and from other casinos. I would be surprised to see them buying this book. Well, exceptions - the new floor persons might be interested in the analysis.



You may be right when it comes to Las Vegas Casinos, but you may not understand how many poorly managed and underqualified Tribal Casinos there are.

I can promise you, many have no clue about the game protection items in the book.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
RoyalBJ
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August 13th, 2017 at 4:46:56 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

You may be right when it comes to Las Vegas Casinos, but you may not understand how many poorly managed and underqualified Tribal Casinos there are.

I can promise you, many have no clue about the game protection items in the book.


ZCore13

Well said.
Ibeatyouraces
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August 13th, 2017 at 6:32:29 PM permalink
Some Indian casinos may not be on the ball about some AP maneuvers. But when they do figure it out, they can be 100 times worse on you than a non Indian casino.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
DRich
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August 13th, 2017 at 6:45:08 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

Most casinos have real life data from own operations day-in and out, and from other casinos. I would be surprised to see them buying this book. Well, exceptions - the new floor persons might be interested in the analysis.



Very few casinos have personnel as qualified as Elliot and any casino that does not have a copy of his book is foolish,
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Wizard
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August 13th, 2017 at 7:20:14 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Very few casinos have personnel as qualified as Elliot and any casino that does not have a copy of his book is foolish,



I would be surprised if even one in ten casinos had anyone on staff who read the book. My opinion of the industry is that it is 20 years behind the times when it comes to advantage play.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MrV
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August 13th, 2017 at 7:33:51 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Some Indian casinos may not be on the ball about some AP maneuvers. But when they do figure it out, they can be 100 times worse on you than a non Indian casino.



Really?

How?

Yes, I understand the "sovereign nation" status afforded to them, but really what can they do, what have they done, that isn't done in Sin City?

Tie AP's spread eagled to an ant hill?

Scalp Ap's?

What, exactly?
"What, me worry?"
LostWages
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August 13th, 2017 at 9:00:04 PM permalink
Quote: Wiz

My opinion of the industry is that it is 20 years behind the times when it comes to advantage play.

Wiz,

Can you (or anyone) share your thoughts about downtown Las Vegas in terms of:

1. I'm afraid to see 3:2 BJ disappear and get replaced with 6:5 BJ. As it is, I only come once a year!

2. I recently "graduated" myself from $1.25 VP play (max at $0.25 machines). If downtown goes from a $5 min BJ table to a $10 min, that's too rich for me.

3. I'm just now getting my feet (hands?) wet learning the Hi-Lo count. I am a low roller, and I don't have an aggressive BJ playing style, but the idea of any heat bothers me.

LW
Eat real food . . . and you won't need medicine (or a lot less!)
ssho88
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August 14th, 2017 at 2:56:25 AM permalink
Just to inform Eliot that our team won 8.2 millions HKD in Year 2016 before they reduced the payoff. Eliot can publish hundreds books but do you think that casinos care/believe what inside his books ? Can you imagine that how much the casinos is behind us as AP ?
Last edited by: ssho88 on Aug 14, 2017
ssho88
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August 14th, 2017 at 2:57:45 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I would be surprised if even one in ten casinos had anyone on staff who read the book. My opinion of the industry is that it is 20 years behind the times when it comes to advantage play.




That's why we are still beating the games ALL over the world and they totally have no clue how we do it.

Look for casinos outside US, there are many opportunities than you can imagine ! LOL
darkoz
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August 14th, 2017 at 9:35:08 AM permalink
Quote: ssho88

Just to inform Eliot that our team won 8.2 millions HKD in Year 2016 before they reduced the payoff. Eliot can publish hundreds books but do you think that casinos care/believe what inside his books ? Can you imagine that how much the casinos is behind us as AP ?



Can u convert that to us dollars for those of us not internationally inclined
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
gamerfreak
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August 14th, 2017 at 9:52:55 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Can u convert that to us dollars for those of us not internationally inclined


$1,048,412.39
darkoz
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August 14th, 2017 at 11:39:58 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

$1,048,412.39



Thanks gamerfreak

Impressive. Still need more details. Was that in one year. Split amongst how many people

Nonetheless impressive
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
mcallister3200
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August 14th, 2017 at 11:47:17 AM permalink
I overheard two table games employees debating whether 3/8 inch was bigger or smaller than 1/2 inch, so yeah...
Ibeatyouraces
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August 14th, 2017 at 11:58:35 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

I overheard two table games employees debating whether 3/8 inch was bigger or smaller than 1/2 inch, so yeah...


You should've asked them if 4/8 is bigger than 1/2.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Romes
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August 14th, 2017 at 12:14:09 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

I overheard two table games employees debating whether 3/8 inch was bigger or smaller than 1/2 inch, so yeah...

One of the managers just had to get his figures straight so he could text back the 'bigger' amount to the girl he was trying to impress.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
ssho88
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August 14th, 2017 at 3:43:57 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Thanks gamerfreak

Impressive. Still need more details. Was that in one year. Split amongst how many people

Nonetheless impressive



We played for about 15 weeks, 3 investors, we hired
9 bettors/counters (USD 200 per day + free meals). It might not that impressive but the main issue here is why the casinos only reduced payoff after 15 weeks ? Either they don't believe their game(with house edge more than 10%) can be beaten by counters or they are clueless what we are doing ! This game already published in Eliot's book before we attack it, so do you guys think that all the "books" out there will affect APs ? THE ANSWER IS NO !


p/s : We are not using TC counting systems that published in Eliot's book but rather use our own "RC" counting system( and other "super" techniques) that is more simple and yet effective. So no thanks to his book. LOL
darkoz
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August 14th, 2017 at 4:29:34 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

We played for about 15 weeks, 3 investors, we hired
9 bettors/counters (USD 200 per day + free meals). It might not that impressive but the main issue here is why the casinos only reduced payoff after 15 weeks ? Either they don't believe their game(with house edge more than 10%) can be beaten by counters or they are clueless what we are doing ! This game already published in Eliot's book before we attack it, so do you guys think that all the "books" out there will affect APs ? THE ANSWER IS NO !


p/s : We are not using TC counting systems that published in Eliot's book but rather use our own "RC" counting system( and other "super" techniques) that is more simple and yet effective. So no thanks to his book. LOL



U won over $1mil us in 3 weeks card counting? Only 9 people actually big betting (and they only got paid $200 a day)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
gamerfreak
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August 14th, 2017 at 4:34:12 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

U won over $1mil us in 3 weeks card counting? Only 9 people actually big betting (and they only got paid $200 a day)


He said it was a game with a house edge of over 10%.

Because it was in Asia, my best guess is that it was a Baccarat side bet that is vulnerable to counting.

In any case, he got a hell of a deal on the guns for hire at $200/day.
Keyser
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August 14th, 2017 at 5:13:58 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

$1,048,412.39



It's a nice start, but you need to think bigger.
onenickelmiracle
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August 14th, 2017 at 8:42:31 PM permalink
Nice guys made the best Nazis. If you're writing a book, put that in there.
I am a robot.
ssho88
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August 14th, 2017 at 8:46:22 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

U won over $1mil us in 3 weeks card counting? Only 9 people actually big betting (and they only got paid $200 a day)



We played for 15 weeks. USD200/day/counter, total cost(counter salary) = USD190K, net profit each investor( total 3 investors) = USD270k.
Last edited by: ssho88 on Aug 14, 2017
Zcore13
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August 14th, 2017 at 8:49:05 PM permalink
A lot of fish tales in the business. Everyone that goes to Las Vegas wins enough to pay for their expenses and come home even.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
ssho88
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August 14th, 2017 at 8:49:28 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

He said it was a game with a house edge of over 10%.

Because it was in Asia, my best guess is that it was a Baccarat side bet that is vulnerable to counting.

In any case, he got a hell of a deal on the guns for hire at $200/day.




Yes, it is baccarat side bet

We hired local "addicted gamblers" and USD200/day/counter is a BIG sum to them. LOL !
onenickelmiracle
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August 14th, 2017 at 8:53:25 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

we hired local "addicted gamblers" and USD200/day is a BIG sum to them. LOL !

How much are you making promoting his book? You're going to make it to the book jacket at this pace. You seem so much against him, you're with him.
I am a robot.
ssho88
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August 14th, 2017 at 9:07:48 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

A lot of fish tales in the business. Everyone that goes to Las Vegas wins enough to pay for their expenses and come home even.


ZCore13




There are many casinos OUTSIDE America which still have many many loopholes !
ssho88
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August 14th, 2017 at 9:11:35 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

How much are you making promoting his book? You're going to make it to the book jacket at this pace. You seem so much against him, you're with him.




Am I promoting his book ? We can develop MUCH MUCH better and yet effective counting systems than what in his book ! We are using counting system call EXCESS RUNNING COUNT(ERC) which developed by our programmer. Have anyone here heard about it or can you find it in his book ?

ERC = S - cN, S = total no of seen cards or total no used cards, c= constant, N = no of seen card for a particular card rank, bet when ERC > trigger value !

He is still much behind us in term of advantage play and we NEVER use his counting system ! Do you think that we NEED his book ?

BTW, other than counting, we have more "super" techniques to beat the games.
Last edited by: ssho88 on Aug 14, 2017
RoyalBJ
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August 14th, 2017 at 9:30:04 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

Yes, it is baccarat side bet

We hired local "addicted gamblers" and USD200/day/counter is a BIG sum to them. LOL !

fortune dragon and panda 8
ssho88
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August 14th, 2017 at 9:32:05 PM permalink
Quote: RoyalBJ

Quote: ssho88

Yes, it is baccarat side bet

We hired local "addicted gamblers" and USD200/day/counter is a BIG sum to them. LOL !

fortune dragon and panda 8



No, it is not dragon 7 and panda 8, these sidebets gone long long time ago ! LOL
onenickelmiracle
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August 14th, 2017 at 9:33:02 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

Am I promoting his book ? We can develop MUCH MUCH better and yet effective counting systems than what in his book ! We are using counting system call EXCESS RUNNING COUNT(ERC) which developed by our programmer. Have anyone here heard about it or can you find it in his book ?

ECR = S - cN, S = total no of seen cards or total no used cards, c= constant, N = no of seen card for a particular card rank, bet when ERC > trigger value !

He is still much behind of us in term of advantage play and we NEVER use his counting system ! Are youbokay now ?

In a reverse psychology kind of way. When you come off as arrogant, some people might get scared and want to read it, because you say they wont. You're playing the role of the "bad guy", which could sway people to read it. You'll understand when you wake up tomorrow.
I am a robot.
ssho88
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August 14th, 2017 at 9:39:31 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

In a reverse psychology kind of way. When you come off as arrogant, some people might get scared and want to read it, because you say they wont. You're playing the role of the "bad guy", which could sway people to read it. You'll understand when you wake up tomorrow.



You may be correct but I am very sure that personal from casinos( especially Asia casinos) will NEVER read gambling books. They just like a robot clock in and clock out after 8 hours, do you think they care how much their boss lost/win ? LOL
AxelWolf
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August 15th, 2017 at 6:54:10 AM permalink
Quote: ssho88

You may be correct but I am very sure that personal from casinos( especially Asia casinos) will NEVER read gambling books. They just like a robot clock in and clock out after 8 hours, do you think they care how much their boss lost/win ? LOL

I don't doubt your claims. I don't know why anyone here would find it hard to believe many casinos outside the US are way behind when it comes to AP methods and game protection.

I was wondering how the casinos in Asia react to Advantage players once they are noticed?

Are there any laws against counting?

Who oversees the gaming there?

How would a white American male fair in that environment?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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August 15th, 2017 at 6:54:11 AM permalink
Quote: ssho88

You may be correct but I am very sure that personal from casinos( especially Asia casinos) will NEVER read gambling books. They just like a robot clock in and clock out after 8 hours, do you think they care how much their boss lost/win ? LOL

I don't doubt your claims. I don't know why anyone here would find it hard to believe many casinos outside the US are way behind when it comes to AP methods and game protection.

I was wondering how the casinos in Asia react to Advantage players once they are noticed?

Are there any laws against counting?

Who oversees the gaming there?

How would a white American male fair in that environment?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ssho88
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August 15th, 2017 at 7:02:19 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I don't doubt your claims. I don't know why anyone here would find it hard to believe many casinos outside the US are way behind when it comes to AP methods and game protection.

I was wondering how the casinos in Asia react to Advantage players once they are noticed?

Are there any laws against counting?

Who oversees the gaming there?

How would a white American male fair in that environment?




If they know you are counting or using other legal techniques, they will only NOT allow you to bet and ask you to leave, nothing more than that.

OR

In our case, they reduced the payoff, LOL !

No laws against counting

Pit manager should do that but most of the time they are just "sleeping"

I think they will pay more attention to white man especially when you are winning big. They just don't believe Asian players know about card counting especially for the game of baccarat. Sometime we just can't blame them because 99% of the Asian players are just the "addicted gambler".
Last edited by: ssho88 on Aug 15, 2017
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