Poll

2 votes (15.38%)
1 vote (7.69%)
6 votes (46.15%)
1 vote (7.69%)
2 votes (15.38%)
5 votes (38.46%)
4 votes (30.76%)
4 votes (30.76%)
5 votes (38.46%)
6 votes (46.15%)

13 members have voted

Wizard
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October 21st, 2016 at 2:57:38 PM permalink
The fourth in my Ten Commandments for Game Inventors states, "Thou Shalt Not Use Unfamiliar Equipment." I guess the makers of Rouleno never read them, or just didn't agree. Nevertheless, as a mathematician and gambling writer, I always like to see a fresh idea as opposed to tweaking existing games. It breaks up the boredom a bit.

That said, I stumbled upon a fresh new game at the Max (formerly known as the Casuarina) yesterday. Instead of the usual dice or cards, it is played with six billiard balls, numbered 1 to 6. They are drawn one at a number into numbered positions and the player bets on the number of balls that match in number and position drawn.

Rather than explain everything twice, please see my new page on Rouleno. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections. I also encourage my fellow mathematicians to note the challenge at the bottom of the page.

The question for the poll is would you play Rouleno (multiple votes allowed)?

p.s. Sorry Maria, that should be Bartiromo (even admins can't edit poll choices).
Last edited by: Wizard on Oct 21, 2016
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MathExtremist
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October 21st, 2016 at 3:21:47 PM permalink
See this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rencontres_numbers
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Joeshlabotnik
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October 21st, 2016 at 3:23:04 PM permalink
1. Why isn't it called Kenette?
2. What were you doing in the Max anyway?
3. Do you think this will appeal to veteran Casino War players?
Wizard
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October 21st, 2016 at 3:45:06 PM permalink
Here is a table on the probability that there will be zero position matches for 1 to 20 balls drawn:

n Combinations Probability
1 - -
2 1 0.500000000000000
3 2 0.333333333333333
4 9 0.375000000000000
5 44 0.366666666666667
6 265 0.368055555555556
7 1,854 0.367857142857143
8 14,833 0.367881944444444
9 133,496 0.367879188712522
10 1,334,961 0.367879464285714
11 14,684,570 0.367879439233606
12 176,214,841 0.367879441321282
13 2,290,792,932 0.367879441160691
14 32,071,101,049 0.367879441172162
15 481,066,515,734 0.367879441171397
16 7,697,064,251,745 0.367879441171445
17 130,850,092,279,664 0.367879441171442
18 2,355,301,661,033,950 0.367879441171442
19 44,750,731,559,645,100 0.367879441171442
20 895,014,631,192,902,000 0.367879441171442


Note how the probability approaches 1/e.

The formula for the probability of 0 position matches in n balls drawn, f(n,0), can be expressed as:

f(n,0) = n*f(n-1,0) + (1 if n is even, otherwise -1).

Okay, I submit for the consideration of the forum the following simpler formula:

f(n,0)=round(fact(n)/e).

Is that brilliant or am I just easily amused?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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October 21st, 2016 at 3:50:50 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

1. Why isn't it called Kenette?
2. What were you doing in the Max anyway?
3. Do you think this will appeal to veteran Casino War players?



1. Sounds like a feminine form of Ken. I think anybody who has seen a Ken doll naked knows he could use more testosterone as it is.
2. My Vegas survey, which you will be hearing a lot more about in the near future.
3. No. I think it has too many betting choices for War players.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ThatDonGuy
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October 21st, 2016 at 4:11:24 PM permalink
On the webpage, you ask for more information on the sequence. I am a little surprised you are not familiar with the Online Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences.

Here is far more information on the sequence than you can probably use.
tringlomane
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October 21st, 2016 at 4:16:17 PM permalink
How often do we think the croupier (or whatever you want to call them here) will forget to enforce losing combinations on the individual numbers?
Wizard
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October 21st, 2016 at 5:04:44 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

How often do we think the croupier (or whatever you want to call them here) will forget to enforce losing combinations on the individual numbers?



While in field trial, I think a lot. Then again, it will happen only once in 360 games, where it matters, and forgetting that rule would only result in a 0% house edge game, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if that happened.

The whole time the dealer and floorwoman were explaining the rules to me, because I couldn't read the rule card without my glasses, neither mentioned this exception to the Individual Numbers bets. I could picture some ill-will when this does happen and the dealer does remember.

At the risk of the house edge being too low (of 0.83%), I would have suggested barring a perfect 1-2-3-4-5-6 sequence. That would induce bets on a Perfect Sequence, which carries a 16.4% house edge.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
CrystalMath
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October 21st, 2016 at 5:37:26 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The fourth in my Ten Commandments for Game Inventors states, "Thou Shalt Not Use Unfamiliar Equipment." I guess the makers of Rouleno never read them, or just didn't agree. Nevertheless, as a mathematician and gambling writer, I always like to see a fresh idea as opposed to tweaking existing games. It breaks up the boredom a bit.



That link doesn't work for me, but I know I've seen the commandments before. Isn't one of them not to mix games? This is one of my biggest pet peeves with new games - based on that alone, I will never play Rouleno. It sounds like a bunch of po-crap to me.
I heart Crystal Math.
Wizard
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October 21st, 2016 at 10:16:50 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

That link doesn't work for me, but I know I've seen the commandments before. Isn't one of them not to mix games? This is one of my biggest pet peeves with new games - based on that alone, I will never play Rouleno. It sounds like a bunch of po-crap to me.



Sorry, try it now -- Ten Commandments for Game Inventors. Yes, you would be referring to my commandment #5.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
beachbumbabs
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October 22nd, 2016 at 3:46:18 AM permalink
This seems like a game for mouth-breathers. Sorry, not interested. I'd play Axel in pool, though, as long as we could drink. For some reason I'm better at judging shot angles while drunk.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
onenickelmiracle
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October 22nd, 2016 at 4:38:44 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

This seems like a game for mouth-breathers. Sorry, not interested. I'd play Axel in pool, though, as long as we could drink. For some reason I'm better at judging shot angles while drunk.

You're being a bad example to jbot with the mouth breather comment.
I am a robot.
RonC
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October 22nd, 2016 at 6:39:40 AM permalink
Put this, the Big Wheel, Casino War, and 6:5 Crapjack at the front entrance of every casino. Place a lot of drink servers close by--keep them coming!! The casino can rake in the cash from the mouth-breathing Trumpers (no intelligent Hillarist with a superiority complex would ever play any of them) and the rest of us can have fun without that type of people actually being on the main floor.

This game sounds stupid...it may make it big!!

Is it exploitable in any way that casinos may be nervous about? Are the balls mixed and who pulls them out of the urn?
beachbumbabs
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October 22nd, 2016 at 7:04:16 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

You're being a bad example to jbot with the mouth breather comment.



This went right over my head (the jbot reference ). And re RonC below yours comment, I didn't mean Trumpers or anything other than willing uneducated gamblers who throw money at stupid games.

How could this possibly be entertaining for more than 2 minutes?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Wizard
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October 22nd, 2016 at 7:09:46 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

This seems like a game for mouth-breathers. Sorry, not interested.



Let's not be too judgmental. It is not more simple than roulette or big six but has a much lower house edge at 1.67%.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
beachbumbabs
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October 22nd, 2016 at 7:14:55 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Let's not be too judgmental. It is not more simple than roulette or big six but has a much lower house edge at 1.67%.



Ok. Decent HE. Watch them pull 6 balls out of an urn, one at a tiZZZZZ.... . Rinse and repeat. Lol. No skill. Little shock of disappointment when the first 4 are in order and the last 2 screw it up. Otherwise nap time.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Wizard
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October 22nd, 2016 at 7:14:58 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Is it exploitable in any way that casinos may be nervous about? Are the balls mixed and who pulls them out of the urn?



The way it works is the dealer puts the six balls in basically a wooden box about double the size of a shoe box. Then she closes the lid and turns a crank about five times, which churns the balls around. Sometimes it jams and you can see the dealer giving it all the force she can to loosen it. The contraption looks like it was made in somebody's garage.

Is there any advantage play here? I can't see what is going on in that box but perhaps one could study the order of the balls going in and out. Maybe there is a correlation, but probably not.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
RonC
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October 22nd, 2016 at 7:16:13 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Let's not be too judgmental. It is not more simple than roulette or big six but has a much lower house edge at 1.67%.



Obviously, my comments regarding the candidates and their followers were in jest...but this game just does not look fun at all. The low house edge is nice, but isn't that mostly a tease in that people will mostly ignore in favor of higher paying bets with a higher edge?

This sounds like a "walk by" game.

Any comments on game protection issues, etc.?
Joeshlabotnik
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October 22nd, 2016 at 9:48:56 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Put this, the Big Wheel, Casino War, and 6:5 Crapjack at the front entrance of every casino. Place a lot of drink servers close by--keep them coming!! The casino can rake in the cash from the mouth-breathing Trumpers (no intelligent Hillarist with a superiority complex would ever play any of them) and the rest of us can have fun without that type of people actually being on the main floor.



Ron, Ron, I knew you'd come around eventually! You share my vision for society after all. If we can just serve lots of strong drinks at the 6:5 tables on Election Day--well, go Hillary!

I agree that the game seems stupid; it also has no inherent appeal for the stupid. People might play it once out of curiosity. Meh.
mrsuit31
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October 24th, 2016 at 8:22:30 AM permalink
Mike, about how long did it take to resolve a single "hand"?

Also, is this played at a BJ sized table or a stadium keno type atmosphere?
.
IndyJeffrey
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October 24th, 2016 at 9:26:54 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Ok. Decent HE. Watch them pull 6 balls out of an urn, one at a tiZZZZZ.... . Rinse and repeat. Lol. No skill. Little shock of disappointment when the first 4 are in order and the last 2 screw it up. Otherwise nap time.



I love new games. But I am with beachbumbabs on this one. ZZZZZZZ They need to add some crazy side bets which pay (and I never play) to make this viable, in my opinion.
Joeshlabotnik
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October 24th, 2016 at 10:29:32 PM permalink
Quote: IndyJeffrey

I love new games. But I am with beachbumbabs on this one. ZZZZZZZ They need to add some crazy side bets which pay (and I never play) to make this viable, in my opinion.



Maybe jazz it up with a slick marketing campaign? "You gotta have six balls to play Rouleno!"
Wizard
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October 25th, 2016 at 5:33:56 PM permalink
Quote: mrsuit31

Mike, about how long did it take to resolve a single "hand"?

Also, is this played at a BJ sized table or a stadium keno type atmosphere?



With only me at the table, once my questions were all answered, about a hand a minute. The table seemed bigger than blackjack. Maybe it used to be a Midi Baccarat table.

In other news, if anybody didn't understand my rules, here are links to the rule card, which I just scanned:

side 1
side 2
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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