6:5 BJ---will competition kill it?

One final thought. Would penny slots be in any casino if max bet was 5 cents ? Last I read average penny bet was 73 cents .
That was last year, probably surpassed 75 cents now, Making penny slots the equivalent of a 3 quarter slot, except with a higher
HE and higher entertainment level for most player,
$ 5 SD BJ will need a similar breakthrough and be impermeable to counters. And have jackpots to boot. Wish me luck !

Poll sure looks like 6-5 BJ is here to stay Any dissenters ??

As long as people think they can count cards well enough to beat a 6-5 game, it's not going anywhere.

What I can see happening is, somebody "breaks ranks" by offering 3-2 if it includes - wait for it - a black Jack. The only problem is, dealers would have to be on the lookout for it. (An alternative could be, say, a 2-1 payout for a 2-card 21 when the dealer's up card is the Jack of spades or clubs; this one is much easier to spot.)

Quote: ThatDonGuy

As long as people think they can count cards well enough to beat a 6-5 game, it's not going anywhere.

What I can see happening is, somebody "breaks ranks" by offering 3-2 if it includes - wait for it - a black Jack. The only problem is, dealers would have to be on the lookout for it. (An alternative could be, say, a 2-1 payout for a 2-card 21 when the dealer's up card is the Jack of spades or clubs; this one is much easier to spot.)

Trust me card counters are the last people who would ever consider stepping onto a 6-5 game (admittedly, with a big enough spread it is countable). 6-5 caters to the casual gamer who is just looking to have some fun and has no real concept of house edge. This is probably 90% of LV clientele. I have witnessed on many occasions 6-5 tables right next to 3-2 tables and the 3-2 tables are empty. Why would casinos ever consider taking away one of their biggest moneymakers when people still choose to play at them?

Even pay BJ is looking a lot more likely than bringing back 3-2.

There are some indications that a price war may be starting vis a vis disclosure of slot machine payout rates right there on the machine.

If this escalates in the slot machine area then blackjack will soon follow with disclosure information and "No 6:5 here" stuff.

The trouble is, this scenario is a long way off.

A half drunk fanny pack wearing gambler doesn't know or care about 6:5. Until more gamblers are sharpies, the casinos won't have to be honest. The margquees have letters a foot high trumpeting the 6:5 blackjack, why should they change any too soon.

I think a lot of people(majority) that visit Vegas are not gamblers per se, so they don't know any better(ignorant).

Quote: iwannaiguana

Quote: ThatDonGuy

As long as people think they can count cards well enough to beat a 6-5 game, it's not going anywhere.

Trust me card counters are the last people who would ever consider stepping onto a 6-5 game

Exactly - people who know what they are doing wouldn't touch 6-5 with a 10-foot pole (any more than they would play, say, 7/5 Jacks or Better Video Poker). I am talking about the average Joe Lunchpail and Sally Soapopera who sees the movie "21" and thinks he/she can count.

The last time I was in Vegas, the single-deck games at New York New York were on the upper level, almost right next to the elevated walkway (from Excalibur and MGM Grand) entrance. Something tells me that is neither a coincidence nor aimed at anybody even remotely serious about gambling.

Quote: Alan

I think a lot of people(majority) that visit Vegas are not gamblers per se, so they don't know any better(ignorant).

Which is why I maintain that eventually, Ceasars will go to 1:1 BJ. They'll still offer 6:5, but those will be higher limits. Only in extremely high limits (100+) will you get to a 3:2 payout.

The new Caesars caters to the slot player. I can't tell you how often table game players get snubbed with RCs and other things, while slot play is looked at very highly. Every once in a while, I play a slot machine, as a way to kill time. It seems that gets me more attention than my $2.50 JoB (9/6) play, or my $25 a hand BJ.

" I have witnessed on many occasions 6-5 tables right next to 3-2 tables and the 3-2 tables are empty. "

I have seen a carousel with 12 identical VP games except 6 paid 8-6 and 6 paid 7-5. 7-5 all filled up, 5 empty seats at 8-6.
Worse I have seen side by side identical $5 slots and one had a jackpot of $73,000 and the other was $27,000. I was at BJ table

6 hours and 80-90% play was at lower jackpot game.

Quote: buzzpaff

Poll sure looks like 6-5 BJ is here to stay Any dissenters ??

"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." As long as drunks and suckers (not necessarily mutually exclusive, btw) pervade in casinos, the casinos will continue to gouge them/us.

I constantly wonder what would happen if someone decided to build a "nice" but not extravagant strip property with reasonably-priced food and reasonable games -- i.e., full pay VP tables, single and double deck 3:2 BJ, etc. Couldn't a place like this theoretically build some loyalty among both strip-dwellers and those who currently prefer downtown? Design a decent rewards program, keep everything clean and nice, but cut all the superfluous Vegas-y things, and see if you can steal some of the middle tier players. Not everyone coming to Vegas wants to play $10k blackjack or baccarat in back rooms or have a $400 breakfast, nor do these people expect insane comps.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Vegas built on the concept of getting people to your casino with cheap (or affordable) food and reasonable payouts? Why wouldn't an updated version of this concept be successful today?

.....

Quote: seviay

I constantly wonder what would happen if someone decided to build a "nice" but not extravagant strip property with reasonably-priced food and reasonable games -- i.e., full pay VP tables, single and double deck 3:2 BJ, etc. Couldn't a place like this theoretically build some loyalty among both strip-dwellers and those who currently prefer downtown? Design a decent rewards program, keep everything clean and nice, but cut all the superfluous Vegas-y things, and see if you can steal some of the middle tier players. Not everyone coming to Vegas wants to play $10k blackjack or baccarat in back rooms or have a $400 breakfast, nor do these people expect insane comps.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Vegas built on the concept of getting people to your casino with cheap (or affordable) food and reasonable payouts? Why wouldn't an updated version of this concept be successful today?

It sounds like a place I once knew. No playable SD (that's gone from the Strip for good, except possibly for high rollers), but it had the best DD game in town for $10 minimums - s17, das. Throw in a well-respected sports book for the fun of it. Of course, a couple of you recognize the punchline - the place was called the Stardust, and its owner decided to go upscale, so they razed it. I'm sure they only regret it about 10 times a day... but they haven't built a replacement yet, so who am I to argue with them?

If you've got, oh, a quarter billion to play with, I bet you could buy the Riv or Sahara and put your ideas into motion.

Quote: fremont4ever

It sounds like a place I once knew. No playable SD (that's gone from the Strip for good, except possibly for high rollers), but it had the best DD game in town for $10 minimums - s17, das. Throw in a well-respected sports book for the fun of it. Of course, a couple of you recognize the punchline - the place was called the Stardust, and its owner decided to go upscale, so they razed it. I'm sure they only regret it about 10 times a day... but they haven't built a replacement yet, so who am I to argue with them?

If you've got, oh, a quarter billion to play with, I bet you could buy the Riv or Sahara and put your ideas into motion.

It's a shame someone with a few dollars more than me doesn't try this with Bill's...and change the name back to Barbary!

Quote: seviay

"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." As long as drunks and suckers (not necessarily mutually exclusive, btw) pervade in casinos, the casinos will continue to gouge them/us.

I constantly wonder what would happen if someone decided to build a "nice" but not extravagant strip property with reasonably-priced food and reasonable games -- i.e., full pay VP tables, single and double deck 3:2 BJ, etc. Couldn't a place like this theoretically build some loyalty among both strip-dwellers and those who currently prefer downtown?

Why would any other tourist trap charge MSRP (or less) on a product if they can get away with charging four times that amount?

I don't know if anyone said this, but the majority of tourists don't give a flying duck whether blackjack pays 3:2, 6:5 or, dare I even say, 1:1. A blackjack wins automatically (save for a BJ/BJ tie). They land the ace and they do the little finger tapping thing on the felt, drawing the ten-spot out of the shoe and bang! Happiness is had. That's all they care about, the binary "I won," without consideration for the odds on top. "I win, I lose, it all evens out in the end," they think.

How many hands does the average Vegas tourist play per year? A couple hundred? Maybe a thousand? What is the overall impact of shifting from 3:2 to 6:5 to this gambler? A couple of bucks of value, really. A gambler with a 'meager' bankroll of a couple hundred might cycle through $5000 in bets over the course of a long weekend. That extra ~1.3% house edge equates to a delta in EV of $65 (assuming a strict increase of 1.3% in HE to the 6:5 rule).

For each player, the impact isn't all that significant. In aggregate, for the casinos, it's huge. Honestly, the casino's biggest worry is pushing the HE so high that the average client's risk of ruin busts too many of them out too quickly. If people die too quick, they won't come back - from the ATM with more or back to Vegas because of the sour memories of such 'bad luck,' compared to their more historical memories.

And before anyone slaps me with a trout - the average tourist is an idiot. I know. Maybe people should hand out pamphlets at McCarren telling of the evils of 6:5 blackjack. An educational campaign on billboards and taxi cabs. That would be funny, I think. A picture of an older, greying gal losing, holding her head as the 6:5 example and some cute chick with a pile of chips as the 3:2. "How much is your BJ worth?" would be the tagline.

Gee Roulette with a 5.26 HE is great. And craps with all bets other than pass/ come whatever is great too. Nasty only BJ at the lowest minumum tables is a terrible 1.34 HE . Gee, the game returns less than 99 cents on the dollar and is labor intensive. How UNFAIR !!!!!!!!!

Quote: PerpetualNewbie

For each player, the impact isn't all that significant. In aggregate, for the casinos, it's huge...

I know this is an old thread, but this post by PerpetualNewbie deserves more attention. The strip caters to people who only play a few weekends a year. For them, the 6:5 vs. 3:2 is not going to impact them very much. More important is the scantily clad dancers in the party pit! Now there is a story to bring home to Nebraska! I don't know how often I have warned visitors (friends) about 6:5, and they don't even know that its supposed to be 3:2!

The two BJ pits at Seminole's Hard Rock in Hollywood, Florida are physically separated but it was obvious the five and ten dollar 6:5 was full and the 3:2 BJ pit with much higher minimums was half full.