Quick question about comps.
Quote: WinoThe Casinos keep saying that comps are calculated as average bet x house edge of game x length of play x % they want to comp you or what have you. But the Casinos always enter in your buy-in amount and what you cash out with in a session. My question is if you are a winning player and your lifetime sessions with a Casino end up net positive while playing rated, does that mean you are not comped until you become a net loser with that particular Casino? Is it cumulative net wins and losses or do they comp. based on the end of each session? Also do you know if they have stored on your Players' Card if you are a lifetime winner with them showing all session results for example? I have been playing unrated 95% of the time.
I can't say for sure that they do but yes they do lol. My host (ex-host I guess) at the Venetian jokes how I am up on them lifetime (quite large) and I still get comps from them. Before anyone says what you're up lifetime? No I am not lol just have run like G-D at Venetian-Palazzo and lost many many other places. Casinos comp based on your theoretical loss not your actual loss.
Quote: gary55I have just totally guessing BUT that might be more likely to comp you if you are UP as they want THEIR money back
Casinos don't think like that. They base comps on whether they feel that you will playing enough (length and amount bet) to justify the free rooms or food or shows that they are giving you. If they comp you three nights and each day you make one $5000 (and lose) bet and that's all you play they won't think you are worth coming again. However if you stay three nights and buy in for $5000 each day and play 3 hours each day betting $100 a hand and lose all $5000 every day I guarantee you will be getting offers to come back and stay for free. In both situations you lose $15000 over three days but the casino wants you to make many bets cause it allows their house edge to take effect better than if you played 3 hands. I hope this makes sense, I just woke up and I am having a little trouble getting my thoughts into writing.
I'm lying in the ditch on the side of the road, just got hit by the Metro Commuter Bus.Quote: PokerGrinderCasinos don't think like that. They base comps on whether they feel that you will playing enough (length and amount bet) to justify the free rooms or food or shows that they are giving you. If they comp you three nights and each day you make one $5000 (and lose) bet and that's all you play they won't think you are worth coming again. However if you stay three nights and buy in for $5000 each day and play 3 hours each day betting $100 a hand and lose all $5000 every day I guarantee you will be getting offers to come back and stay for free. In both situations you lose $15000 over three days but the casino wants you to make many bets cause it allows their house edge to take effect better than if you played 3 hands. I hope this makes sense, I just woke up and I am having a little trouble getting my thoughts into writing.
I'm broken and bleeding.
I regret never haven had the balls to sit down at the $100 table.
But then PG reminded me my comps were better the way I did it.................
Come in and get 5k a hand for 5 hands loss everyone - yoyr theo will be 100 dollars but I guarantee you can get at least 2500 in comps
Mgms policy is 10 percent of actual or 30 percent of theo as a reinvestment model
TL = TotalWagered *HouseEdge = (AvgBet*NumHands)*(HouseEdge)
So yes, your time (which they use to calculate NumHands) and your average bet do count. So does the game and how well they think you play. If you're a "skilled" BJ player your HE might be .5%, or 1%. If you're a moron doing really bad things the pit might rate you playing at a 5% HE. This is how the donkey players often get the best comps... They're earning them 10x as fast as you based off their rating.
For comps, "usually" most places give back about 20% of your TL to you as comps. Thus, they're paying you back with your own theoretically lost money. Of course this could vary from casino to casino, or you could just get an on the spot comp, but this is how it works "in general."
Example
You play a .5% blackjack game for 5 hours, spreading $10-$200. The pit has your average bet marked at $80, and the casino already has average hand calculations per hour based on their dealers... Thus in your 5 hours the casino expects you received 70 hands per hour, for 350 hands in your session. Your Theoretical Loss is:
TL = (80*350)*(-.005) = -$140
From this, on average, you'll get 20% back for comps... Comp = (TL)*(.2) = (140)*(.2) = $28.
Play for 5 hours, get a buffet, or comp somewhere else, etc.
My mileage has varied, considerably.Quote: RomesAs PG stated comps are based off your Theoretical Loss (TL).
TL = TotalWagered *HouseEdge = (AvgBet*NumHands)*(HouseEdge)
So yes, your time (which they use to calculate NumHands) and your average bet do count. So does the game and how well they think you play. If you're a "skilled" BJ player your HE might be .5%, or 1%. If you're a moron doing really bad things the pit might rate you playing at a 5% HE. This is how the donkey players often get the best comps..
I haven't tried a donkey suit yet ;-)
Like I said earlier, if you have someone do a bone head play in front of the PB, he might rate them at a house edge of 5% on a BJ game. If you play perfect basic strategy he might rate you at .5% or 1%... Thus they're going to earn comps 5x-10x faster/better than you.
Quote: RomesWhen comparing offers it would have to be assumed that everyone plays EQUALLY skillful / the same.
Like I said earlier, if you have someone do a bone head play in front of the PB, he might rate them at a house edge of 5% on a BJ game. If you play perfect basic strategy he might rate you at .5% or 1%... Thus they're going to earn comps 5x-10x faster/better than you.
Both players in the case I'm comparing use the same strategy.
Right, but what you might be missing is this... Let's say you 3 are all on a team using the EXACT same strategy... However 1 player has a deviation that "looks" like a bone head play (or you get a PB that doesn't understand deviations and just thinks it's really a stupid play). Say one of your guys splits 10's when he should, but the PB thinks that's really idiotic. Well, he's going to rate him as a poor player with a higher house edge than you, resulting in better comps/etc for that player. There's tons and tons of other examples this could follow. It all comes down to when the PB comes to check your table what does he see and what does he rate you as a result. You might be hitting A-7 vs 10 when he walks over thus he rates you as a good player, where as someone playing perfect strategy hits 13v3 in a negative count and the PB thinks he's an idiot and rates him as such.Quote: mcallister3200Both players in the case I'm comparing use the same strategy.
There's a lot of variables to consider, so jumping straight in to race/etc isn't exactly correct. I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, just that you can't really confirm you're right either =/.
Quote: WizardofnothingWhat????????????? Race wtf are you talking about?
Don't believe it if you don't want but in this case it is obvious.
However
All the explanations I have read here of the computations that result in MY comps are wrong, or overly simplistic, or I occasionally really pissed off someone I shouldn't have ;-)
Do casinos come in here? No. Too busy with winning, to try to figure out even their own actions.Quote: TwoFeathersATL... All the explanations I have read here of the computations that result in MY comps are wrong, or overly simplistic, or I occasionally really pissed off someone I shouldn't have ;-)
Quote: mcallister3200Don't believe it if you don't want but in this case it is obvious.
I think they would say it's based on everything but race.... But come on let's be real they do take into account if the player is a certain race or likelihood to be an addict. Whether or not they are able to sustain their addiction is another factor.
Quote: mcallister3200Don't believe it if you don't want but in this case it is obvious.
I guess it's possible there could be a racist Pit Boss somewhere, that might do that, but other than that, your scenario of race being any factor in rating or comps is false.
There is also no casino that I know of or have heard of in my almost 10 years in the business that rates based on actual loss. You could get some discretionary comps if you are running way worse than what the theo says you should be losing, but normal everyday comps are based on theo only.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I guess it's possible there could be a racist Pit Boss somewhere, that might do that, but other than that, your scenario of race being any factor in rating or comps is false.
There is also no casino that I know of or have heard of in my almost 10 years in the business that rates based on actual loss. You could get some discretionary comps if you are running way worse than what the theo says you should be losing, but normal everyday comps are based on theo only.
ZCore13
Absolutely agree with you on race. Don't know any casinos that rate with that in mind.
As to actual losses or wins, I have come across casinos that will comp significantly better one way or the other. (I have multi-carded at those casinos and used record keeping to compare results so I'm not guessing. I've seen it.)
EDIT: In particular, I know of at least three. Two of them reward based on heavy actual losses while one rewards based on heavy actual wins. However, most casinos do seem to rate solely on theo.
Quote: mcallister3200Not in multiple casinos in a particular city with several casinos. Definitely. The factors HAVE been isolated
Why can't white guys just catch a break in this country for once?
Quote: RogerKintWhy can't white guys just catch a break in this country for once?
I meant for the average loss being a factor, that's been isolated and is 100% correct.
Race strong evidence, at a limited number of casinos, is tied into combination with age/zip code demographic.
White male age 35 with 1mill credit line gets RFB
Asian male age 35 with 1mill credit line gets RFBHB
HB=Hookers n blow
Quote: mcallister3200I know if casinos that rate table games offers based on a combination of actual loss, theo/average bet, and racial demographic, with max average loss taken into account at 3-5k. Comparing offers between players at these properties it is extremely obvious that actual loss and race or age demographics are both taken into account and weighted heavily.
Amazing, time for the Guinness and cashew, hey hey.
Sigh, then how much of a credit line do I need as a white male to get RFBHB?Quote: AxelWolfAsians get more crap.
White male age 35 with 1mill credit line gets RFB
Asian male age 35 with 1mill credit line gets RFBHB
HB=Hookers n blow
I have seen first hand offer matrices and race is not one of the factors listed in the search spread
Could this happen? Remote possibility does it? Probably not, it may even fall under discrimination
Quote: WizardofnothingYes there is a separate ASIAN marketing department, the hosts actually are able to be much more aggressive as well compared to normal hosts
How do you not consider this to be conflicting with your other statements in this thread unless you are misunderstanding or I didn't say correctly what I meant?
If you think that offers are not issued on the basis of factors like ZIP Codes, you are are sadly mistaken. And ZIP Codes, as any marketer should know, are extraordinarily useful in targeting socioeconomic demographics. I see evidence of that regularly among friends who live across quite a few ZIP Codes in a given casino's marketing area, even to the extent that non-players receive far better offers than I do.Quote: WizardofnothingNot claiming to know everything but anyone that is worth anything in the casino world would surely tell you that you are out of line, this is almost along the lines of the shuffle master machines are rigged
Could this happen? Remote possibility does it? Probably not, it may even fall under discrimination
Quote: WizardofnothingZip code marketing is 10000 percent accurate and inactive- unless I understood wrong he was saying he is rated differently based on race and that just isn't accurate - marketing is completely different then what the pit boss enters rating wise
Ok, think we're just misunderstanding each others position. Never meant to say you got rated differently based on race (seperate from marketing as you say), but can be a factor in marketing along with age/zip code leading to different offers for comparable play at some properties (true based on even having a seperate asian marketing department, extent of this effect can be minimal I suppose)
Quote: mcallister3200Ok, think we're just misunderstanding each others position. Never meant to say you got rated differently based on race (seperate from marketing as you say), but can be a factor in marketing along with age/zip code leading to different offers for comparable play at some properties (true based on even having a seperate asian marketing department, extent of this effect can be minimal I suppose)
Ok then I understand, casino market different for zip code and frequency of visits and. Inactivity and game adt.
My point was if you took a black guy and a white guy and they live next door to each other and are the same age(in order to exclude senior only promos) and they play same amount same game (results usually do not matter) then they should get the same offers relatively speaking as long as it's not one persons birthday month and they get an extra bonus or soemthing
Once again, all of this is funny because I'm fourth generation and the only Japanese I speak is from Judo. There is no way a pit or supervisor has checked a box saying I'm culturally Asian. I've been profiled simply by my last name (plus a few hours of PGP each trip).
