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AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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May 8th, 2016 at 10:06:18 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

It would be impossible to tell when the machine was in "beast mode" because the OP claims that "beast mode" only happens when there is a suspected AP at the table. I guess it's akin to VW telling its engines to run clean when it's plugged into an emissions tester. That never happens.

Does SHFL make clean machines? Absolutely. Is there source code possible to make it possible to have a "beast mode"? Absolutely. Would SHFL make any claim that it would give operators use of that code? Never. Does it happen anyway? Who knows.

Just because casinos make 0.2% - 7% off of every hand (depending on the game) doesn't mean it's enough. For a company like CZR who is hanging on a wire, rigging a slot machine or game to go from 5% to 50% has a direct impact on its bottom line.

A year ago, I would say "nah", impossible. But given what VW did and what online casinos are doing, and the technology behind SHFL machines now, I would say "anything is possible".

I'm in the camp of probably not, but certainly not impossible. If the FBI can find a hack to break into an I-Phone, someone else can find a hack to create a SHFL "beast mode".

Note - I am not attacking SHFL. They probably make a very clean game but it doesn't mean that it's not hackable.

I'm in the it's very doubtful camp, but, I have always rejected the... why would they risk their reputation, and they already have an edge argument. That's never stopped anyone

I just can't imagine some dealer or pit boss standing back there pushing a button every time they see an advantage player come along. They couldn't possibly keep that quiet for long, there's too many people that would have to be involved. Eventually someone would blow the whistle.

If the machine could secretly track and identify an advantage player itself perhaps it could cheat.
However, it's possible, if a team figured this out they could use this information against the house somehow.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mrsuit31
mrsuit31
Joined: May 29, 2010
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May 8th, 2016 at 10:52:04 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I am not impressed with the situation in North Carolina. In setting up its gaming regulation infrastructure, I think that North Carolina has done the absolute minimum a state can do to meet the requirements of federal law. Given that the NC/EBCI Certification Commission actually did not meet for over ten years prior to 2011 and is currently composed of 3 people making $9-12K/yr and does not even have a website, I am personally not comfortable that there is effective regulation.



I love that you still keep relying on the certification commission's infrequent meetings as your reasoning for the ability for the casino to have gaffed table games equipment. The compact is very clear as to who monitors and approves this type of equipment, but you for some reason keep ignoring that fact and looping back to this. That in and of itself reinforces wizardofnothing's statements that this entire thread is one big pile of defamatory poopoo. Not just attacking SHFL, but the tribe, managing company and the government agencies as well.

Why not just call the tribal gaming commission, instead of posting here... We all know the answer to that.
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boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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May 8th, 2016 at 11:20:23 AM permalink
I dunno.

VW risked it with their diesel engine, deciding to take the risk to put in software to change emission results. When I saw that level of tom-foolery in a major global corporation, nothing surprises me especially when dealing with cash transactions and a struggling company trying to make up for their stupid mistakes.

We know some online casinos cheat, even those that have been certified.

Corporations will mislead when they can and there is someone without ethics at the helm.

It would not surprise me completely if someone found a SHFL hack and found code that deals better cards to the dealer... somehow. Given that the machine can put cards in order, it would not surprise me.

I'm not saying that any casino is doing that, just that I wouldn't be completely surprised if they did.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
mrsuit31
mrsuit31
Joined: May 29, 2010
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May 8th, 2016 at 11:41:08 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I dunno.

VW risked it with their diesel engine, deciding to take the risk to put in software to change emission results. When I saw that level of tom-foolery in a major global corporation, nothing surprises me especially when dealing with cash transactions and a struggling company trying to make up for their stupid mistakes.

We know some online casinos cheat, even those that have been certified.

Corporations will mislead when they can and there is someone without ethics at the helm.

It would not surprise me completely if someone found a SHFL hack and found code that deals better cards to the dealer... somehow. Given that the machine can put cards in order, it would not surprise me.

I'm not saying that any casino is doing that, just that I wouldn't be completely surprised if they did.



In several games (of course procedure differs from facility to facility) the dealer gets their cards last... For example in FL while playing UTH, the dealer gets his/her two cards last. How would the machine know how many players were sitting at the table and wait to deal the best two cards to the unknown dealer position? Also in many places the dealing order for pai gow is still determined by dice, not an RNG... How would it be possible for the machine to know who is to be dealt first and reserve the great hand for the unknown dealer?

Also, as Axel said, if it was a "hack" that could be imputted in the event of an AP situation, it would be disgustingly obvious to anyone that they were jerry rigging the device. I have personally watched a machine get reprogrammed (not a SHFL shuffler) to deal 6 4 card packets when we installed my game at a facility. That simple task itself was a process. Imagine inputting the game genie code and then taking it out when the AP left the table...

This is just unrealistic.

To comment of the VW reference. They were eventually caught... Another fact that reinforces the question of why not write the comission and force them to investigate instead of posting on an online forum.
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AceCrAAckers
AceCrAAckers
Joined: Jul 12, 2011
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May 8th, 2016 at 12:26:11 PM permalink
I have played Pai Gow Poker on SM shuffler. When I play, I play two hands. I refuse to play on the game at MD Live because I am not getting what I feel to be a representative amount of wins or pushed. Are they cheating? Probably not. Can the game be considered "slots" which will allow for the shuffler to be programed to return 91.7%. I don't see why not and in that case it can explain my losing streak.

Either way, since they do not let players bank or use the dice to decided where the starting hand is placed, I refuse to play their game.

If the cards are random, why do they use RND and not dice?

I have not heard a reasonable explanation on this.

If the "table games" with shufflers are considered "slots", then the casino can set the payouts as they fits. Not technically cheating but not fair either.
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
Joined: Jul 3, 2015
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May 8th, 2016 at 1:04:51 PM permalink
Casinos do and have used dice- it depends on the casino, in pai gow tiles dice are almost always used....
The rng for numbers makes ZERO difference , after all- it doesn't know who is banking - it could be dealer or player so that throws that entire argument out the window
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
ernestmiddle
ernestmiddle
Joined: Apr 19, 2016
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May 8th, 2016 at 1:22:45 PM permalink
Quote: AceCrAAckers

I have played Pai Gow Poker on SM shuffler. When I play, I play two hands. I refuse to play on the game at MD Live because I am not getting what I feel to be a representative amount of wins or pushed. Are they cheating? Probably not. Can the game be considered "slots" which will allow for the shuffler to be programed to return 91.7%. I don't see why not and in that case it can explain my losing streak.

Either way, since they do not let players bank or use the dice to decided where the starting hand is placed, I refuse to play their game.

If the cards are random, why do they use RND and not dice?

I have not heard a reasonable explanation on this.

If the "table games" with shufflers are considered "slots", then the casino can set the payouts as they fits. Not technically cheating but not fair either.



The Xaverian Brothers at Mt St Joe want your diploma returned immediately !
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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May 8th, 2016 at 1:40:22 PM permalink
Quote: AceCrAAckers

If the "table games" with shufflers are considered "slots", then the casino can set the payouts as they fits. Not technically cheating but not fair either.

There are a few misconceptions here. First, it's generally the case that table games using physical cards and shufflers are taxed as table games rather than slots. It's the e-tables with digital cards that fall under the slot treatment, and that's usually only important from a tax standpoint (e.g., in Pennsylvania, slots are taxed about 3x the rate of table games).

Moreover, the casino can always set the payouts as they see fit. Going from 3-2 to 6-5 on naturals, or paying 30-to-1 vs. 30-for-1 on the boxcars bet, is "setting the payout". What I think you mean is "changing the probabilities," that is, the odds of the cards themselves. To my knowledge there are no jurisdictions anywhere that permit a game to be dealt from a 52-card deck where the probabilities of each card are not 1/52, at least not without disclosing that rule to the players so the math can be verified. In fact, most jurisdictions require that every game combination possibility be equally likely.

And to the extent that a jurisdiction requires those rules, it would indeed be cheating there to operate the game to the contrary. Cheating in Nevada includes altering the "method of selection" that determines the result or frequency of payout in the game. Secretly using the shuffler to bias the card selection would definitely qualify.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
TheGrimReaper13
TheGrimReaper13
Joined: Sep 25, 2015
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May 8th, 2016 at 1:59:22 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I'm in the it's very doubtful camp, but, I have always rejected the... why would they risk their reputation, and they already have an edge argument. That's never stopped anyone

Been cheated more than once in one particular run at a blackjack table. Culminated when the dealer refused to follow my hand gestures at all, just dealt past me. I sued, and won some money in civil court.

It's as easy to get away with (in the long-run) as mocking, banning, and later making up stuff about posters who posted up unfavorable facts about a forum and its creators/sponsors. The herd mentality, I suppose, in the sense that people actually do it. Mob mentality.

When I see threads like this, and the same old rut of "why would they do that" responses, I have to shake my head and laugh. Some guys go on and on with all sorts of logic to back up casino innocence. Lol.

I guess that if I'm typing nonsense, then you guys really are right. (ME's m.o.)
So much bullshit; so little time!
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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May 8th, 2016 at 5:27:28 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

To my knowledge there are no jurisdictions anywhere that permit a game to be dealt from a 52-card deck where the probabilities of each card are not 1/52, at least not without disclosing that rule to the players so the math can be verified.



New York State's Class II slots include Video Poker where the payouts from the cards are well over 100% but the cards are not dealt at random, at all. It's deceptive if you don't know this, and there is nowhere on the VP machine itself where this is indicated.

Nonetheless, in games where the dealer gets dealt last it would be extremely difficult for a beast mode, and that includes PGP where the deal number is separated from the cards.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!

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