Craps - Can You Remove Your Bet if the Wrong Person Shoots???

What happens when the person you expect to be the shooter does not shoot? Can you pick up your pass line bet after the point is established?

It's a contract bet, so the answer should be no, right? And I'm not talking about someone passing the dice -- I'm talking about an error (or perceived error) in procedure.

I have two stories related to this.

1. I was betting the don't, and the dice were coming to me next so I decided to shoot and bet the pass line. But before I realized what was happening, the dice were passed to the other end of the table and thrown by another shooter. I was right next to a dealer and complained that I was only on the pass line because it should have been my roll. He checked with the box and I was allowed to pick up my the passline bet because I had established that I was betting on the don't.
2. I had just arrrived at the table, and the shooter was in the middle of a pretty decent roll. I bought in after he hit one point, got a point and come point established, and he promptly sevened out. Good roll for many, but not for me. I put my next bet on the passline, but the dice were passed to the same shooter. I asked why the same shooter - the explanation was that he had been finishing someone else's roll. I did not want to bet on the same shooter who had just sevened out, but I was too slow to ask if I could pick up my bet -- he sevened out again on the next roll.

I've seen people pass the dice in the middle of their roll, but then the receiver of the dice becomes the shooter, and when he's done, the dice pass to the next person. I've never seen the same shooter get to shoot twice in a row like that. Is this normal procedure? It seemed pretty strange to me. Other cases that cause confusion are when somone gets skipped and the dice go "backwards" -- this happened in story #1 after I was skipped, the shooter sevened out, and then it was my turn. Is it reasonable to be allowed to pick up your bet after you point out an error, or perceived error in procedure?

Quote: seattledice

What happens when the person you expect to be the shooter does not shoot? Can you pick up your pass line bet after the point is established?

It's a contract bet, so the answer should be no, right? And I'm not talking about someone passing the dice -- I'm talking about an error (or perceived error) in procedure.

Short answer is if it lays it plays and who the shooter is should not matter. On your example of you being the shooter and getting skipped is a legitimate gripe an the boxman made the right decision IMHO. But if I was running the pit I would otherwise not be inclined to do this as it could be a good excuse for a cheat to pick up a passline bet after he no longer has the advantage.

#1: Even if you had a bet on the don't pass, the stick should have offered you the dice. Seeing that you switched to the pass, he should have given them to you without asking. So you had a legitimate gripe, and the boxman made a good decision. An even better decision would be to allow you to move it to the don't.

#2: I don't know where I read it, but that's the procedure when taking over some else's roll. However, when he sevened out the first time, there should have been some kind of announcement, or at least the stick asking the player if he wanted to shoot again, and explaining it to the table. Then again, there is the chance that the explaination was announced when he first took over the roll - before you got there.

I have had this happen twice to me, once in Vegas, and once in Biloxi.

Shooter on my right (so I am next to get the dice) passes the dice in the middle of the roll. The shooter got an angry visit from the wife/gf and he decided walking NOW was the correct action. He took down all of his bets, except the passline, which he announced was for the boys. Dice came to me with the point still up. I made the point, and then continued to roll. When I finally sevened out, the dice passed to the next player.

In Biloxi, the guy to my right had made 3 points fairly quickly. He rolls a 4 on the come-out, drops a cuss word, and passes the dice to me. I was stunned, and looked at him. He said, "I hate that gd point. I can never make it. Hopefully you can." Nope! My second roll I sevened out. He looks at me, laughs, and says, "Oh well, I wouldn't have done any better either." In this case though, the stick then announced, "same shooter has the dice", and sent them back to me for my roll.

It is my understanding that when the dice pass in the middle of a point, that the next person rolls to the completion of that point. When the current point is resolved, the holder of the dice for the next throw now becomes the official shooter. So, if you had 7'd out, you get the dice back. If you made the point, and you get the dice back, you are now making the first throw of your turn to shoot.

What I am not sure of, is what is the protocol if the original shooter wanted the dice back? Does the original shooter have the right to get them back?
I would gladly hand them back to the shooter, and of course, the players could all agree to pass until the dice wind up back at the original shooter, so there is a way to make that happen. I just wonder what the rule is, if there is one.

Speaking of passing, I was on a table in Vegas and a player got skipped after a stick change. The point was already established when the mistake was called out. The stick apologizes and then says, sorry nothing I can do. You'll have to wait for them to come back around. The player mildly complained to the box, but the box backed the stick.
So the players at the table all passed until the dice ended up in the hands of the guy that got skipped, and everyone was happy.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Speaking of passing, I was on a table in Vegas and a player got skipped after a stick change. The point was already established when the mistake was called out. The stick apologizes and then says, sorry nothing I can do.

I encountered a similar situation once where I was both the complainer and the cause of the problem.

I was on the hook, to the stick man's right, and the shooter was straight out at my end of the table. When he sevened out, he and a few others, including the only person between me and the stick, left the table. I don't remember whether there was a stick change. The dice were headed for me on a table that was no longer very crowded. Since I prefer to shoot from the end of the table, I made the mistake of shifting my position about a foot to the end. Rather than giving me the dice, the stick man sent them to the other end of the table. I asked why I didn't get a chance to shoot. After it was established that I had been playing, had not changed position with respect to other players, and was next in line for the dice, the stick man kept the dice where he had sent them for one shooter but agreed to back them up to me next. The box man concurred, and I apologized for having caused the confusion. Everyone seemed to be happy with the solution, and it didn't require all the other players to pass the dice back to me.

I usually bet the don't, and am offered the dice in turn.

To ask a question on a related topic, is it bad craps etiquette to shoot the dice at a busy table, as a don't bettor? When I do most other players don't bet at all, or cut their bets way back. Nobody gives me the obvious stink eye, but the other players look bored and perhaps a little annoyed. Still, I should have the same right to shoot as everybody else, and I'm not forcing anybody not to bet. With that, I open it up for discussion.

It is not bad etiquette. Everyone at the table has the same "right" to shoot, even if they're "wrong".

I got scolded in Vegas for attempting to pick up my new Come bet after the shooter threw a die off the table. Since the point was not established for the Come bet, and the dice were not in the shooters hand, I assumed it could be handled just like a new passline bet before the come out roll. I didn't challenge the dealer, but was I actually in the wrong?

Quote: Wizard

I usually bet the don't, and am offered the dice in turn.

To ask a question on a related topic, is it bad craps etiquette to shoot the dice at a busy table, as a don't bettor? When I do most other players don't bet at all, or cut their bets way back. Nobody gives me the obvious stink eye, but the other players look bored and perhaps a little annoyed. Still, I should have the same right to shoot as everybody else, and I'm not forcing anybody not to bet. With that, I open it up for discussion.

I'm no expert on the subject of craps do's and don'ts... however, my perception is that the person shooting the dice from the don't is hoping to win money by losing, or not making the point. As a bettor on a table with somebody shooting from the don't, I don't change my bet at all.

To answer the question, I think it is probably considered bad etiquette to shoot from the don't at a busy table. However, by yourself, I think it's perfectly acceptable.

I bet the pass, and I don't see any problem at all with a don't player shooting. If I really thought it was bad for my wager, then I would bet the other way, but I never have. I have seen don't players change to the pass side when the dice come to them, but I have assumed that is so that if/when they win, they don't have to give up the dice.

Ayecarumba, I can think of no reason you should not be able to remove a come bet prior to its point being established. From a different perspective, I have seen quite a few folks place a come bet when the dice leave the table, because their superstition is that the next roll will be a 7.

Quote: Wizard

is it bad craps etiquette to shoot the dice at a busy table, as a don't bettor?

Etiquette, like ethics, tends to take a beating in a casino.

No. It's not bad etiquette - as long as the other players KNOW you're shooting from the don't.

Quite the contrary. It would be bad etiquette for them to grumble. If anybody has a problem with it, just tell them to prove you wrong by betting the pass. Or to join you on the don't. Or to shut the f--- up.

Quote: Doc

Ayecarumba, I can think of no reason you should not be able to remove a come bet prior to its point being established. From a different perspective, I have seen quite a few folks place a come bet when the dice leave the table, because their superstition is that the next roll will be a 7.

On a similar note, I see no reason to not be able to place a FireBet, if the shooter had a roll or two, but hasn't established his first point yet. But I've been told that it has to be before the first throw.

It's almost like they're saying that because you the shooter throws sevens and elevens on a come out, then you can tell that he has a better chance of hitting 4 or more points. Give me a break!

Quote: Wizard

is it bad craps etiquette to shoot the dice at a busy table, as a don't bettor? When I do most other players don't bet at all, or cut their bets way back.

Are you kidding? The few times I've rolled from the don't, the table has turned hotter than fire. The same generally holds true when other confirmed don't bettors throw the dice. Now that doesn't refer to those bettors who alternate or follow the trend or have some other strategy that moves between do and don't. Just hard-core don't bettors.

it just feels weird when youre betting from the donts and keep making points. everyone starts cheering because of you but you cant join in the fun since youre losing.

Acutally, the Stickman always passed the dice to the next person if I was shooting from the don't and made a point. They also moved the dice to the next shooter if I sevened out. Once a point was established, I've never had the opportunity to shoot twice from "the dark" if there were others at the table.

Quote: Wizard

To ask a question on a related topic, is it bad craps etiquette to shoot the dice at a busy table, as a don't bettor? When I do most other players don't bet at all, or cut their bets way back. Nobody gives me the obvious stink eye, but the other players look bored and perhaps a little annoyed. Still, I should have the same right to shoot as everybody else, and I'm not forcing anybody not to bet. With that, I open it up for discussion.

the only thing I can figure is they are sort of trying to be polite, in some cases; perhaps in others they are irritated and hoping you notice. But it only makes sense for all folks to just bet as they please and cheer away, not worrying about the dark side bettor, who has to have a tough hide to begin with.

Quote: Wizard

I usually bet the don't, and am offered the dice in turn.

To ask a question on a related topic, is it bad craps etiquette to shoot the dice at a busy table, as a don't bettor? When I do most other players don't bet at all, or cut their bets way back. Nobody gives me the obvious stink eye, but the other players look bored and perhaps a little annoyed. Still, I should have the same right to shoot as everybody else, and I'm not forcing anybody not to bet. With that, I open it up for discussion.

I am okay with a don't player shooting, but I usually will not make a PL bet. I may place the 6/8, or, sometimes I will join them on the Don't. I won't bet PL for two reasons. One, I know the shooter is intentionally trying to 7 out (not that matters, at all) but why tempt it. And Two, I don't like to root against the shooter, unless the don't player has been cheering previous 7 outs, which very few do. Most don'ts I have been around lately just quietly collect their money, whilst I watch my former chips get stacked by the dealer.........

Quote: DJTeddyBear

On a similar note, I see no reason to not be able to place a FireBet, if the shooter had a roll or two, but hasn't established his first point yet. But I've been told that it has to be before the first throw.

It's almost like they're saying that because you the shooter throws sevens and elevens on a come out, then you can tell that he has a better chance of hitting 4 or more points. Give me a break!

At all the Harrah's properties I play at, I have always been allowed to bet the fire bet, as long as no point has been established. Perhaps they allow me to do it because they know I am a george, but I don't think that is the case. I believe that just realize that it is the exact same bet, nothing has changed.

Quote: rudeboyoi

it just feels weird when youre betting from the donts and keep making points. everyone starts cheering because of you but you cant join in the fun since youre losing.

That's why if I start on the don't and hit one point, I'll switch to the pass line with a "token" bet -- say I was $5 don't with $30 odds, I'll switch to $5 pass + $10 odds. If I hit it again then I've made up some of my losses. If I seven out I'm not kicking myself for going "all in". It's a compromise I can live with.

On etiquette: If people don't want to bet or cut back because someone shooting from the don't is "bad luck" that's up to them. It's superstition, not bad etiquette. Heck - you "made" them bet less, so you saved them money, right? I'm one of those quiet don't bettors. I try to get the spot next to the dealer, and sometmes only the one or two people at my end, whose pass line bets my "wall" of odds sits in front of even notice. Once a guy squeezed into the second or third spot from the stick and started betting the don't. The players around him hounded him for bringing bad luck to "their" table. I'd been quietly betting the don't before they even arrived at "my" table, and they never noticed until they were coloring up.

I'd rather shoot from the don't at a busy table than an almost empty one. When there are only one or two others there it feels much more like "me against you". At a busy table, if I hit the point then everyone's happy, and then on my next come out I'm betting with them. If I seven out, sure I win, but I'm just one more shooter who can't hit a point, and the dice move on.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Are you kidding? The few times I've rolled from the don't, the table has turned hotter than fire. The same generally holds true when other confirmed don't bettors throw the dice.

Yeah - that happens sometimes. Thanks to my switching after hitting a point, I've made pretty good money a few times when my roll turned out to be that hot roll.

Quote: RaleighCraps

At all the Harrah's properties I play at, I have always been allowed to bet the fire bet, as long as no point has been established. Perhaps they allow me to do it because they know I am a george, but I don't think that is the case. I believe that just realize that it is the exact same bet, nothing has changed.

Ditto on that... the Harrah's properties I've been to in various, non-Vegas locations all allow a Fire Bet until the first point has been established.

As far as shooting from the Don't, depending on the Don't bettor's position at the table, I actually don't think most people even notice a Don't bet.

I just got back from a trip where the guy next to me was on the Don't, and he rolled, although he was a very friendly guy, and nobody gave him any problems or looks even. I even joined him on the Don't for some stretches. But I always moved to the Do when I shot. I don't think it's bad etiquette to shoot when you're on the Don't, but I'm a math bettor, not a superstitious bettor.

As to the OP's original question: shouldn't you be able to pick up (or preferably orally call off, so your hands aren't in the way) your bet any time before the dice leave the shooter's hand? So you place your bet, the dice go to the wrong shooter, you just tell the dealer your bet's off? As long as you realize what happened in time, of course.

Quote: Chuck

As to the OP's original question: shouldn't you be able to pick up (or preferably orally call off, so your hands aren't in the way) your bet any time before the dice leave the shooter's hand? So you place your bet, the dice go to the wrong shooter, you just tell the dealer your bet's off? As long as you realize what happened in time, of course.

Re-read his post.

As I see it, he was simply waiting for the dice to be given to him, and didn't even realize that they were in another patron's hand. If he had realized it, instead of calling the bet off, or calling it a Don't, he would have called for the dice!