Thread Rating:

bilcgo
bilcgo
Joined: Aug 25, 2010
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 11
April 3rd, 2011 at 6:35:06 PM permalink
Terminology surrounding how the tiles get moved around before the hand actually begins can be imprecise. Specifically, the words “shuffle,” “stack,” “cut,” “move,” “set-up” and “delivery” all have clearly defined, and different, meanings, but are often mixed up in describing what goes on. Here are some useful distinctions:

The SHUFFLE is the process of “washing” the tiles that the dealer goes through after the previous hand is finished. All tiles should be face down throughout the shuffle. Different houses may have different rules for how much washing the dealer has to do. One place I dealt said a minimum of eight circular motions with both hands (going in opposite directions), and if a tile got exposed eight more without a tile getting exposed. Other places will require a complete re-shuffle only after a teen, day or Gee (half a Gee Joon) is exposed, with only a few additional motions after any other tile is exposed. Others will leave it to the dealer’s judgment (subject, of course, to the floor supervisor’s judgment).

STACKING is the process of getting the washed tiles into eight piles, each four tiles high. This is done either by stacking tiles four high until they’re all done, or (the standard in Las Vegas) stacking the tiles into four stacks eight tiles high each, and then lifting the top four tiles from all stacks and placing them next to the remaining stacks, creating eight stacks four tiles high.

SET-UP FOR DELIVERY: If the house is banking, the only delivery allowed is the “house way” – one stack at a time, from the dealer’s right to the left, counterclockwise around the table. This delivery is set up simply by advancing the stack on the dealer’s right an inch or so forward. Other set-ups are discussed below.

All the other steps noted below only come into play (usually) when a player is banking. I am not aware of any casino where cutting, moving, or deliveries other than the house way are permitted when the house is banking.

CUTTING: If a player is banking, the dealer usually sets the “woodpile” (the eight stacks of tiles) in front of the player-banker, who is allowed to cut and/or move the tiles. A “cut” involves taking one or more stacks from any point in the woodpile (other than a stack on the end), advancing it (or them) so that it (or they) completely clears the rest of the woodpile, moving it (or them) to either end of the woodpile, and closing up the gaps so that the woodpile again consists of eight stacks four tiles high. Four example, a player-banker might take the 2nd and 3rd stacks from his left, move them out of the woodpile, and put them on the extreme right end of the woodpile, and close the gap. In this case, the original stack order (reading from the player-banker’s left) of 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 has been changed to 1-4-5-6-7-8-2-3.

MOVING: A “move” involves removing one, two or three tiles from one or more adjacent stacks, placing them on the layout at either end of the woodpile, sliding the remaining tiles from the opposite end of the woodpile to fill all gaps, and then moving the odd tiles at the end of the woodpile to fill the remaining adjacent gap. The simplest example of a move would be a player-banker taking the top tile from the stack on his far right and putting it on the layout to the immediate left of the woodpile, then sliding the top three tiles of all the remaining stacks over one stack to the left. This would leave one tile to the far right of the layout, and the stack next to it having only three tiles. The move would be completed by placing the orphaned tile on top of the short stack.

Most houses limit the number of cuts and moves a player-banker is permitted to make. A standard rule is “two moves, one cut” – that is, the player-banker can make a total of two moves and/or cuts, only one of which may be a cut, so the options are as follows:

No moves, no cuts
One move, no cuts
Two moves, no cuts
One cut, no moves
One cut, one move

In general, the player must make the moves or cuts himself. I’m not aware of houses where a dealer will move or cut the tiles at the player’s direction. This is not the case of setting the tiles up for delivery, however.

SET-UP FOR DELIVERY: If a player is banking, the player-banker has the option of designating a delivery method other than the house way. These are the named deliveries such as jung quat, chee yee, cup say, etc. Sometimes the player-banker notes the delivery he wants by setting the tiles up in a particular configuration. For example, for jung quat the two stacks of tiles in the center of the woodpile are simply advanced forward slightly. For “Hong Kong Bank,” a series of moves are resulting in a configuration that is six stacks across, with the two central stacks ten tiles high, the two stacks flanking those four tiles high, and the two outer stacks two tiles high each. Particularly with the more complicated set-ups (and deliveries), it may appear to someone unfamiliar with the game that the player-banker is rearranging the tiles at random, but he isn’t. Setting the tiles up for delivery is NOT cutting or moving the tiles, and if the player-banker makes any moves with the tiles that are not part of a recognized set-up for delivery, the dealer will usually call a misdeal and start all over again.

Finally, it is not necessary that the player-banker actually set up the tiles for delivery. Often, he will simply call out the delivery that he wants, and the dealer will take control of the woodpile and set the tiles up for delivery. It’s not uncommon for this call to made either completely or partially in Chinese. For example, you might hear a player-banker tell a non-Chinese speaking dealer, “cup say, from the bottom, from the left,” at which point the dealer will move some tiles a bit. Again, this is NOT an instruction to the dealer to move and/or cut the tiles; it is simply an instruction as to which delivery the player-banker wants, which the dealer will then set up and, after the dice have been shaken, execute. And again, it's easy to mistake this for an additional shuffle, or cut, or move, after the tiles have been shuffled, stacked, cut, and moved. It's not uncommon to see the following sequence to occur: dealer washes the tile and stacks them, pushes them over to the player-banker; player-banker makes a cut and/or move and pushes the tiles back toward to dealer; player-banker says something in Chinese to the dealer; dealer rearranges the tiles to set them up for delivery. All perfectly normal and legit, and the dealer is NOT throwing in an additional cut or move at the player's request.

LAR JAR: This I've never heard of, but it may exist in some places (or may have existed at some earlier time). My sense, based on a pretty broad sampling of casinos across the US, is that they are increasingly careful to adhere to the procedures described above. Everyone is concerned that tiles may be a beatable game, and vigilant about players messing with the tiles too much.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 8717
April 3rd, 2011 at 6:43:54 PM permalink
Quote: appistappis

where I deal there is no cutting allowed....I have seen cutting allowed if a player was banking.....never heard of anyone cutting a house banked hand....also, it is strictly forbidden for the dealer to converse in any language other than english.



And it is strictly forbidden to drive 1mph over the speed limit. Neither is enforced.
PapaChubby
PapaChubby
Joined: Mar 29, 2010
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 495
April 3rd, 2011 at 8:35:57 PM permalink
This thread makes me happy. I've enjoyed playing tiles for a few years, but haven't found any good descriptions of the cutting, moving and delivery options. I had a dealer show me a few one time, but they didn't stick. Thanks to those providing the knowledge!

I thought I was shown a delivery something like: "Man walking down stairs"?
teddys
teddys
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5514
April 3rd, 2011 at 9:35:16 PM permalink
Dragon's Tail is the best tile delivery. I had a dealer show me all of them when I was playing heads up at Caesars AC one time. That was great.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
bilcgo
bilcgo
Joined: Aug 25, 2010
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 11
April 4th, 2011 at 10:54:35 AM permalink
Papa Chubby,

Yep, to set it up, as the dealer:

1. take the top two tiles from the stack on the far right end and stack them up on the layout on the far left end of the woodpile
2. take the top tile from the stack that was originally on the far left end of the woodpile (now 2nd from the left), and place it on the layout to the left of the two tiles that you just moved in step #1.

At the end of these two steps, you should have a total of ten stacks, of the following height, reading from left to right: 1 tile, 2 tiles, 3 tiles, 4 tiles, 4 tiles, 4 tiles, 4 tiles, 4 tiles, 4 tiles, 2 tiles.

To deliver the tiles, start with the single tile forming the "stack" on the far left end of the woodpile. Pick it up, then pick up the top tile from the next stack to the left, the top tile from the next stack to the left of that, and the next stack to the left of that. Hand out the four tiles to the first player. The effect of this will be like "walking up stairs," as each tile you pick up will be one tile higher than the previous one you picked up. After picking up these four tiles, the woodpile will have the same configuration as before, but will be narrower by one stack. (If you want to be more like walking DOWN stairs, pick up the same four tiles, but in reverse order.)

Repeat this for each hand to be dealt out, until you have four stacks left, of the following heights: 1 tile, 2 tiles, 3 tiles, 2 tiles. Again, start with the left, pick up the single tile and then the top tile from the next three stacks, from left to right, and hand it out. As you pick up the last tile for this hand, you will be coming down one step, and the three remaining stacks will be, from left to right, 1 tile, 2 tiles, and 1 tile high. To pick up this last 4 tiles, you can either follow the same order as before (single tile on the left, top tile from middle stack, single tile on the right) and then pick up the last tile, or just pick up the single tile on the left, both tiles in the middle, and the single tile on the right.

For me, this is the most enjoyable delivery, closely followed by "evil closes the door" -- but thats another story.
appistappis
appistappis
Joined: Mar 27, 2010
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 105
April 4th, 2011 at 12:54:37 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

And it is strictly forbidden to drive 1mph over the speed limit. Neither is enforced.



you are wron g.....come to my $100 min table on a weekend when the players are up tens of thousands and you will see all the rules enforced.
PapaChubby
PapaChubby
Joined: Mar 29, 2010
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 495
April 4th, 2011 at 4:13:02 PM permalink
@bilcgo: Thank you! Feel free to share "evil closes the door". I'm thrilled to have them all in one place!
bilcgo
bilcgo
Joined: Aug 25, 2010
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 11
April 5th, 2011 at 3:47:20 PM permalink
Evil Closes the Door:

Set up: Start with the standard woodpile, 8 stacks of 4 tiles each. Simultaneously, take the two stacks on the left in your left hand, and the two stacks on the right in your right hand, and set them on top of the two center-left and two center-right stacks, respectively, creating four stacks, each eight tiles high.

Next, simultaneously take the top tile from the inside left stack in your left hand, and the top tile from the inside right stack in your right hand, and set them on the layout, next to the two outer stacks.

This completes the set-up. You should now have a total of 6 stacks, of the following heights (from left to right): 1 tile, 8 tiles, 7 tiles, 7 tiles, 8 tiles, and 1 tile.

The Delivery:

Before each hand is delivered, you have to "close the door." This is done by sliding the top tiles on the two highest stacks together (using one or two fingers on each, simultaneously), changing the configuration to 6 stacks of the following heights, from left to right: 1 tile, 7 tiles, 8 tiles, 8 tiles, 7 tiles, and 1 tile.

The tiles to be delivered on the first hand are the top tile and the tile immediately under it from each of the two middle (8 tile high) stacks. You should be able to pick these four tiles up with one hand in one motion and hand them out. After the first hand is picked and delivered, you should again have 6 stacks, but with the following heights: 1 tile, 7 tiles, 6 tiles, 6 tiles, 7 tiles, and 1 tile.

Proceed with the delivery by "closing the door" again and again picking and delivering the top two tiles from each of the two middle stacks.

Keep going until the two middle stacks are depleted. You should now have 4 tiles left on the layout, two on the left, and two on the right, with a gap between them. How you hand out these final 4 tiles is up to you: Slide them together and stack the outer tiles on the inner tiles and then hand them out; stack the outer tiles on the inner tiles first, then slide them together and hand them out, or just stack them up (preferably as two stacks of two tiles each) and hand them out.
PapaChubby
PapaChubby
Joined: Mar 29, 2010
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 495
April 5th, 2011 at 5:53:30 PM permalink
Very nice. Thank you again!
Malaru
Malaru
Joined: Mar 22, 2010
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 274
February 26th, 2013 at 11:39:45 PM permalink
Thanks for this list. :)
"Although men flatter themselves with their great actions, they are not so often the result of a great design as of chance." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld

  • Jump to: