Hunterhill
Hunterhill
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
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October 3rd, 2015 at 5:25:35 PM permalink
Quote: CharmedQuark

Mosca - I think you are trying to argue ‘pot odds’. You can’t play ‘pot odds’ in UTH. As I said, the player gets one bet. You can’t bluff – your bet is your raise and that’s it. He/she should make the best of it when the opportunity it there (4X – 2X – 1X).

What difference does it make win/lose any of the BS 4X bets and win/lose any of the marginal bets? You get the same results either way. All these bets (4X and marginal) have a cost if they lose. If you lose with AA and lose with a Q3s, you still lose the same amount of money. And if you win with AA and win with Q3s, you still win the same amount of money. Granted you have a greater advantage to win the BS 4x bets but you still have an advantage playing the marginal bets. It’s the Expected Win (EW) and I will take EW on a 53% win (not lose) advantage all day long.

What You're missing is that you have a
greater advantage by waiting for the flop to 2x some hands. By all means if you want to 4× the hands you listed go ahead just don't fool yourself by thinking it's the best way to play.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
98Clubs
98Clubs
Joined: Jun 3, 2010
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October 3rd, 2015 at 9:05:11 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

What about if you're on a video machine paying points? At 0.2% cash back, any 49.8% flips to the other side.



Thats no excuse to gamble away the incentive by improper play/aggressive play. Why turn a net -1.984% into a -2,184% game???
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
98Clubs
98Clubs
Joined: Jun 3, 2010
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October 3rd, 2015 at 9:08:08 PM permalink
This is well-said by HunterHill.
+1
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Pokeraddict
Pokeraddict
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
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October 3rd, 2015 at 9:22:45 PM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

Thats no excuse to gamble away the incentive by improper play/aggressive play. Why turn a net -1.984% into a -2,184% game???



I think you totally misunderstood my question.
CharmedQuark
CharmedQuark
Joined: Apr 28, 2015
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October 3rd, 2015 at 9:28:11 PM permalink
Here’s some additional data from the 900 hands I played on the practice game:

I played just like I play at the casino - $1000 BR - $15-$15 ante-blind – no trips.

Total sessions: 30 – hands per session 30 – total hands 900

Total BS 4X bets: 314 – avg per session 10.47 - I did not count the BS 4X wins or losses.

Total Marginal 4X bets: 82 – avg per session 2.73

Total 4X bets: 396 – avg per session 13.2

Total BR: $30,000 ($1000x30)

Balance at end: $24,892 – Avg session balance after 30 hands: $830

Highest session balance: $1457 - Lowest session balance: $182 - - Interesting that I never busted out in a session.

Winning sessions: 10 Losing sessions: 20 - Note I used the game suggested plays on 4X – 2X – 1X and Fold decisions except for the marginal 4X bets. Some 2X and 1X decisions I would have played differently since I normally don’t chase straights and flushes at the 2X level and some of the 1X fold hands (I use the 20 and 22 out rule most of the time).

This is just information – nothing of value.
Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
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October 3rd, 2015 at 9:51:32 PM permalink
Quote: CharmedQuark

Mosca - I think you are trying to argue ‘pot odds’. You can’t play ‘pot odds’ in UTH. As I said, the player gets one bet. You can’t bluff – your bet is your raise and that’s it. He/she should make the best of it when the opportunity it there (4X – 2X – 1X).

What difference does it make win/lose any of the BS 4X bets and win/lose any of the marginal bets? You get the same results either way. All these bets (4X and marginal) have a cost if they lose. If you lose with AA and lose with a Q3s, you still lose the same amount of money. And if you win with AA and win with Q3s, you still win the same amount of money. Granted you have a greater advantage to win the BS 4x bets but you still have an advantage playing the marginal bets. It’s the Expected Win (EW) and I will take EW on a 53% win (not lose) advantage all day long.



No, I was saying the same as 98Clubs, in fact I'd even written that it was better to hold back two or three units to see if the position improved, but deleted that. Bottom line is that the expected value can be calculated from the deck and the rules, and there is no secret loophole in the arithmetic. It just is what it is.

That isn't to say you can't play the way you enjoy the most; heck, the smartest move from that perspective is to not play at all! But you can't rationalize it the way you are trying to, because you are leaving out the unequal win/loss, and that it is sometimes better to wager a lower amount with more information, than a higher amount with less information.
NO KILL I
djatc
djatc
Joined: Jan 15, 2013
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October 4th, 2015 at 10:33:39 AM permalink
Quote: CharmedQuark


I played just like I play at the casino - $1000 BR - $15-$15 ante-blind – no tips.



fyp
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
CharmedQuark
CharmedQuark
Joined: Apr 28, 2015
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October 4th, 2015 at 12:22:45 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

Quote: CharmedQuark


I played just like I play at the casino - $1000 BR - $15-$15 ante-blind – no tips.



fyp



Djatc - - Thank you. I'm sorry I offended you or anyone else. You offend me.

I was just trying to put those numbers in perspective and I meant to type 'no trips'. Just a typo.
djatc
djatc
Joined: Jan 15, 2013
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October 4th, 2015 at 5:41:31 PM permalink
I was just messing with you. Always tip your waiters and dealers.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
MrGoldenSun
MrGoldenSun
Joined: Apr 1, 2016
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April 25th, 2016 at 10:38:07 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

What You're missing is that you have a
greater advantage by waiting for the flop to 2x some hands. By all means if you want to 4× the hands you listed go ahead just don't fool yourself by thinking it's the best way to play.



Yes, there are hands where making the 4x raise is a play with positive expectation, but not the best play.

Let's say you have a hand which is 51% to win preflop, but somehow you'll be either 100% or 0% after the flop, and you'll know which is the case. Then if you wait for the flop, you are trading a small edge at 4x for a MASSIVE edge at 2x.

Obviously you can't know this for sure at UTH, but the point is that if you have more information, you can make a decision for 2x which is enough better than the 4x decision that it's worth waiting.

This concept comes up in live holdem sometimes, where you have a hand that is likely best, but the turn card will greatly impact your equity. In those cases, it's often better to forgo raising your small flop edge in order to see the turn.

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