Baccarat traditions?

As I said in another thread I don't play the game, never did, but watched a bunch of high rollers making bets of one thousand to five thousand or more and I became interested in what they did at the table.

Can you please explain:

1. Dealer picks two cards from shoe and then gives them to a player who peeks at them before returning them to the dealer to be flipped over. Why are the cards given to a player to peek at them?

2. The "peeker" doesn't just simply peek at the cards but always seems to have some sort of ritual which includes shuffling the cards, hitting the cards, tapping the cards, and then bending the corners in such a way that the cards are damaged. Why?

3. Before any of the peekers peeked they all seemed to have a speech that they had to make or made comments to other players and even exchanged barbs with other players. If someone is betting against the peeker he will say something about that. (In craps we wouldn't berate a "don't player" when we have money on pass.) What the heck is that all about? It could be a minute or two before the cards were peeked at or played. Is there a time limit for this stuff?

4. After the cards were revealed by the dealer they went into a slot that I was told led to a trash bin. I guess that makes sense if the cards were damaged. So this is normal for cards to be destroyed by players and the casino? I was told Bac players consider it "bad luck" to reuse cards, true?

IMO that's all tradition. I think the trashing the cards part is to avoid any chance of marking the cards since the player does get to touch them, and anywhere I've seen full baccarat, the table minimums are so high they can afford to throw them out/can't afford NOT to throw them out. I've heard (and occasionally seen) of players ripping and throwing their cards, bending them (routinely peek at the corner by folding it up, or tenting them like 3 card Monte), stabbing them with their pen/pencil, even chewing them.

Not an expert, however. I just think they're indulging superstition that's grown over decades into a whole ritual.

Quote: AlanMendelson

As I said in another thread I don't play the game, never did, but watched a bunch of high rollers making bets of one thousand to five thousand or more and I became interested in what they did at the table.

Can you please explain:

1. Dealer picks two cards from shoe and then gives them to a player who peeks at them before returning them to the dealer to be flipped over. Why are the cards given to a player to peek at them?

2. The "peeker" doesn't just simply peek at the cards but always seems to have some sort of ritual which includes shuffling the cards, hitting the cards, tapping the cards, and then bending the corners in such a way that the cards are damaged. Why?

3. Before any of the peekers peeked they all seemed to have a speech that they had to make or made comments to other players and even exchanged barbs with other players. If someone is betting against the peeker he will say something about that. (In craps we wouldn't berate a "don't player" when we have money on pass.) What the heck is that all about? It could be a minute or two before the cards were peeked at or played. Is there a time limit for this stuff?

4. After the cards were revealed by the dealer they went into a slot that I was told led to a trash bin. I guess that makes sense if the cards were damaged. So this is normal for cards to be destroyed by players and the casino? I was told Bac players consider it "bad luck" to reuse cards, true?

This is "Midi" not Mini Baccarat.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

This is "Midi" not Mini Baccarat.

Sorry, don't follow this?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Sorry, don't follow this?

Mini is where the dealer deals the cards and players do not touch. Midi is where the dealer slides the respective hands to the person(s) with the highest bet(s) on that particular side. Then of course there is the big baccarat table which is very rare these days.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Mini is where the dealer deals the cards and players do not touch. Midi is where the dealer slides the respective hands to the person(s) with the highest bet(s) on that particular side. Then of course there is the big baccarat table which is very rare these days.

Thanks.

What is the different with "big"?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Thanks.

What is the different with "big"?

The players handle the shoe. May have seen it in a James Bond movie. I tried finding a YouTube video of one but struck out.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The players handle the shoe. May have seen it in a James Bond movie. I tried finding a YouTube video of one but struck out.

If you're thinking of Casino Royale, that's Chemin de Fer, not Baccarat (or, as it's called in Europe, Punto Banco). It is also seen briefly in A Hard Day's Night when one of the Beatles' fathers is playing and calls out "Bingo!" instead of "Banco" (which means the player is betting the entire amount of the bank).

Touching the cards is all the fun of the game / it myself have ripped them into 4 pieces, midi is the form where you touch the cards- mini the dealer does, in the past they had big baccarat games with huge tables and 3 dealers and the shoe was passed around player to player and as long as you won you kept the shoe like the dice in craps- wish I could find a big game somewhere like this/ does anyone know if any exist anymore ?

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Touching the cards is all the fun of the game / it myself have ripped them into 4 pieces, midi is the form where you touch the cards- mini the dealer does, in the past they had big baccarat games with huge tables and 3 dealers and the shoe was passed around player to player and as long as you won you kept the shoe like the dice in craps- wish I could find a big game somewhere like this/ does anyone know if any exist anymore ?

I think Caesar's LV still has it in an alcove off the main floor. I don't think they staff it without prior arrangements. I could be wrong.

Yeah, I remember seeing a big-bac table at Caesars Palace. I think there's 3 dealers on that game, too.

The only time I've seen one being played was when back at the old Casino Windsor.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

If you're thinking of Casino Royale, that's Chemin de Fer, not Baccarat (or, as it's called in Europe, Punto Banco). It is also seen briefly in A Hard Day's Night when one of the Beatles' fathers is playing and calls out "Bingo!" instead of "Banco" (which means the player is betting the entire amount of the bank).

According to the Wizard, Punto Banco is just another name for Baccarat [no particular version I think]

Chemin de Fer is a high roller version that may be played nowhere now.

The "snooty" version [that is actually available] Wizard just calls "Big Table Baccarat"; as for Midi Baccarat, Michael doesn't give it much of a description [at least in the below links]

Sorry, it does bug me a little bit to have all the confusion, a lot of which could still stand to be cleared up. I myself am the last guy to claim I know much about Baccarat. I may play some soon. [edits]

https://wizardofodds.com/games/baccarat/basics/

https://wizardofodds.com/games/chemin-de-fer/

Baccarat is otherwise not readily available near Portland, except there is a "card room" type small casino north of Portland in Woodland, Wa. ("Oak Tree") that offers several baccarat tables (not the big tables!), as well as other table games.

It is owned by an Asian and caters to Asians.

We checked it out on Labor Day: it was packed, and all the patrons were Asians having a loud, exciting time whooping it up and betting surprisingly big money.

I wonder if it will survive after the new mega-casino is built nearby in La Center, Wa.?

The Cowlitz tribe, in partnership with Mohegan Sun and another tribe in California, are poised to start building after years of delay caused by lawsuits filed by those opposed to it.

You are describing a typical Macau baccarat game. From bottom-feeder, to mid-level (as you describe at the $5K U.S. dollar point), to high-end it is done this way all over the city. It is not so much tradition as superstition. The players think they can change the cards if they wish enough. The bending, tapping, etc... you describe is more properly called "squeezing the cards".

Why is it more proper to call it squeezing? Because, like it or not, Macau is, and will be for the foreseeable future, the center of the gaming world and they get to name things now.

I may be able to answer your question :
1. The dealer gives the cards to the guys who bet the most for them to squeeze ,to open to do what ever they want except to tear them up. The guys who bet the most have that privilege to do it. It's more fun to squeeze the cards, peek at it upside down, peek at the corner or sides of the cards to see if it is 2 or 3 or 4 lines, to guess what will be the numbers of the card. Just like playing poker, you sqeeze the cards slowly to see what they are.
More fun!
2. As I explained in no. 1
3. As I said they can do what ever they want, talk to each other etc, as long as the time spend is reasonable.
4 . The casino don't use the damaged cards after.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Touching the cards is all the fun of the game / it myself have ripped them into 4 pieces, midi is the form where you touch the cards- mini the dealer does, in the past they had big baccarat games with huge tables and 3 dealers and the shoe was passed around player to player and as long as you won you kept the shoe like the dice in craps- wish I could find a big game somewhere like this/ does anyone know if any exist anymore ?

It is not necessary a tradition or any superstition, but it is all about human psychology. Touching the card allows the player a sense of control/power, and gives the player an excitement. An analogy to the "feeling" of the cards in baccarat is the throwing of dice in craps (many shooters in craps feel like they have power, or exert some influence in the outcome of the throws, or by physically throwing the dice themselves gives them a sense of lucky feeling).

Allowing players to “feel” the cards in midi bac definitely will slow down the game & cause the destruction of the cards, and definitely will add more cost to the operation. In the end, it is all about the cost of doing business -- the delay of the game and the destruction of the card will ultimately be made up by the VERY high bets from these players. Because of the additional cost and the delay, midi bac is usually reserved for table with high limit.

Quote: AlanMendelson

As I said in another thread I don't play the game, never did, but watched a bunch of high rollers making bets of one thousand to five thousand or more and I became interested in what they did at the table.

Can you please explain:

1. Dealer picks two cards from shoe and then gives them to a player who peeks at them before returning them to the dealer to be flipped over. Why are the cards given to a player to peek at them?

2. The "peeker" doesn't just simply peek at the cards but always seems to have some sort of ritual which includes shuffling the cards, hitting the cards, tapping the cards, and then bending the corners in such a way that the cards are damaged. Why?

3. Before any of the peekers peeked they all seemed to have a speech that they had to make or made comments to other players and even exchanged barbs with other players. If someone is betting against the peeker he will say something about that. (In craps we wouldn't berate a "don't player" when we have money on pass.) What the heck is that all about? It could be a minute or two before the cards were peeked at or played. Is there a time limit for this stuff?

4. After the cards were revealed by the dealer they went into a slot that I was told led to a trash bin. I guess that makes sense if the cards were damaged. So this is normal for cards to be destroyed by players and the casino? I was told Bac players consider it "bad luck" to reuse cards, true?

1. It is all about the business of satisfying the high betting customers.

2. Just like craps or any other casino games, many players have some degree of superstition and/or habit. Slowly bending the cards to look for the outcome give excitements to the player.

3. I don't think the players berate each other. They mostly and usually talk about various win-loss scenarios depending on the face values of the drawn cards or any banker/player cards. As far as time limit is concern, when an individual bet is $1000 or $5000, or the TOTAL bet on the table is $10,000 or $50,000, then does the casino care if it takes two or more minutes for each hand?

4. It is not about "bad luck." Simply, the cards were damaged or marked, and therefore; cannot be used again

Caesars has one big table with three dealers running it in the high limit area. Blah. Don't like it.

Baccarat cards are typically "squeeze" cards -- cards that have no numbers. This allows players to delay the information they receive, increasing the suspense.

"No sides" include A, 2, 3
"Two sides" are 4, 5
"Three sides" are 6, 7, 8
"Four sides" are 9, 10
"Monkey" are face cards (you can quickly see the rectangular line.

So a player with, say, a 6-3 (natural nine) might first peek at the sides and see no side, three side (indicating either 0, 1, 7, 8 or 9). They might then look at the top of the "no side" to see if it's an ace or a deuce/three. Seeing a 2/3 ("katow"), they've eliminated the possibility of a 7, and they're concerned about having a 0/1. They're looking for empty spaces on the "three side" now -- it's a 6, 7 or 8. They see one empty space, it's a 6 or 7 (they have 8, 9 or 0). They see the second empty space, they know they have natural 8 or natural 9.

Or, if they have 2 as bank, player has a five, they're looking for a "two side." (Two side is no loss, potential Dragon). If they pull a three-side, they're then trying to find at least one empty space (6, 7 or 8, an 8 would be a loss).

It seems silly (because it is), but if you're gambling for entertainment, increasing the suspense isn't the worst thing. It's rarely a ritual to be lucky, and mostly to make it exciting.

(Superstitious rituals might include, for example, drawing a two-side on a three as Bank, and blowing on the card, trying to "blow away" the center pip and have a 7 total for dragon.)

^^ Made that post at work under time constraints. My grammar mistakes embarrass me. A few more details:

Players generally don't talk too much smack on each other, though it depends on the player -- there's always a jackass out there somewhere who'll do things he shouldn't. The absolute worst I've ever seen was a guy who came in and bet $25 -- the minimum -- on Banker after the only other player bet $6,000 on Player. The Player bettor looked at his cards quickly and showed natural 8. The Banker bettor looked at his cards VERY slowly, then said to the Player bettor, "You win." He then threw the cards down quickly, showing natural 9. He SLOWROLLED the other guy who had a $6k bet. To be clear, this is not poker -- you are not betting against other players. This is the equivalent of trying to psych out someone who bet black when you bet red. I was appalled. Collecting the $6k and paying the $25 felt awful -- a horrid confirmation of the concept we are all already aware of, that there is no justice at the Baccarat table.

Mostly, however, there's a level of camaraderie. A good example: often, players don't like to bet against the big bet. This is sometimes superstitious, but often out of courtesy -- you are no more likely to win on this hand than any other hand, so why bother fighting the big stack? You can't really enjoy the victory the same way. Often, players who find themselves betting against a big stack or against the rest of the table will ask the dealer to just open their hand, not wanting to slowly peel cards that cost everyone else money. It's common to see people change sides to align with the big bet, saying "I'll support you" (or, given the largely Chinese local player base, more likely "I support"). Also, at EZ Baccarat, since the Panda and Dragon side bets are frequently bet by all players, many players will actively call for the other side to win on the draws -- with the card that would hit Dragon or Panda. Thus, if the Bank shows 6 and the Player shows 0, often the Bank players might shout "Eight!" for the Player's draw, as opposed to the (much ruder) "monkey!" In other words, saying "I hope WE win" as opposed to "I hope I win and you lose."

Finally, my personal policy when playing is to overtly "support" any high roller. My reasoning: I'm not giving up much value, but I often will wind up dealing to the same high rollers when I'm working, and it's better they have positive memories of my winning with them. It makes things go more smoothly, and I get tipped more. When these players ask me my opinion on what the next hand will be (when I'm playing), I ALWAYS come up with an answer, because I risk nothing in doing so, and they may decide I'm "lucky." If I'm dealing at their (usually reserved) table later, they may ask me again -- if I supply an answer, I'll be right about half the time, and often will get tipped as a reward. Baccarat players like to feel like they're around other genuine gamblers who are seeing, understanding, and respecting their decisions. If someone, during a long Player streak, switches to Banker and is correct, they LOVE getting credit for "calling the jump." When I'm dealing, if I shake my head there, smile and say, "This guy... calls the jump, just fearless!" I will often get a tip.

The cards don't go in the trash immediately. Instead, they are counted (or sometimes even sorted) and go into storage. This is to ensure that, should there be an issue or complaint, they can produce the cards from that night to prove the validity of the deck. All the decks in storage have the exact date of use written on them, and records are kept of when the deck is opened, checked, shuffled, placed into a sealed plastic container, opened, shuffled again, dealt, and counted. Video footage of the entire life of the cards since the packs were opened can be shown, to prove absolute fairness and to catch any possible mistake. Once a sufficient amount of time has passed, only then are the cards destroyed.

Quote: AlanMendelson

As I said in another thread I don't play the game, never did, but watched a bunch of high rollers making bets of one thousand to five thousand or more and I became interested in what they did at the table.

Can you please explain:

1. Dealer picks two cards from shoe and then gives them to a player who peeks at them before returning them to the dealer to be flipped over. Why are the cards given to a player to peek at them?

2. The "peeker" doesn't just simply peek at the cards but always seems to have some sort of ritual which includes shuffling the cards, hitting the cards, tapping the cards, and then bending the corners in such a way that the cards are damaged. Why?

3. Before any of the peekers peeked they all seemed to have a speech that they had to make or made comments to other players and even exchanged barbs with other players. If someone is betting against the peeker he will say something about that. (In craps we wouldn't berate a "don't player" when we have money on pass.) What the heck is that all about? It could be a minute or two before the cards were peeked at or played. Is there a time limit for this stuff?

4. After the cards were revealed by the dealer they went into a slot that I was told led to a trash bin. I guess that makes sense if the cards were damaged. So this is normal for cards to be destroyed by players and the casino? I was told Bac players consider it "bad luck" to reuse cards, true?

Superstitious absolute waste of time nonsense. You find this at the midi and high limit tables. Unless you head downtown to the Golden Nugget where they let you squeeze/touch the cards at the low limit $25 tables. This is why I HATE playing with other players in the high limit areas. If I win give me my money. If not just move on.

Quote: DMSCR

Superstitious absolute waste of time nonsense. You find this at the midi and high limit tables. Unless you head downtown to the Golden Nugget where they let you squeeze/touch the cards at the low limit $25 tables. This is why I HATE playing with other players in the high limit areas. If I win give me my money. If not just move on.

put it this way.
it's like having sex, or making love. you can finish your business in 3 minutes, or you can make it last 30 minutes.

and since you have paid money for it, might as well take your time.

Hello MrV. Do you know when new casino open? I travel from seattle to portland almost every day of the week. Just want to check it out? Thanks