Pai Gow Envy Bonus

Playing Pai Gow at the Monte Carlo casino this weekend in vegas with my buddies, only three of us were at the table. We all were playing $15/hand w/ $5 on the fortune bonus. Because the table wasn't full, they had what they called the "dragon" hand, where you can play an extra hand. My buddy decides to play it, and low-and behold it's 5 aces.

The fortune bonus says it pays $250 "envy" for 5 aces as long as you bet at least $5 on the hand, however the dealer refused to pay the bonus because it was the "dragon" hand and not the players initial hand.

Was this the right ruling? Later playing at the aria, their pit-boss said that they pay the Envy bonus even if it is the "dragon" hand. At the time I let it go, but now that I think about it I get madder and madder. The player paid the $15 to play the hand, why shouldn't it qualify? Additionally, no-where does it say that envy does not apply to dragon hand. Is there any recourse I have? I tried to find the rules of the game on the nevada gaming commission, but nothing seems to mention this situation.

Quote: ljump12

Playing Pai Gow at the Monte Carlo casino this weekend in vegas with my buddies, only three of us were at the table. We all were playing $15/hand w/ $5 on the fortune bonus. Because the table wasn't full, they had what they called the "dragon" hand, where you can play an extra hand. My buddy decides to play it, and low-and behold it's 5 aces.

The fortune bonus says it pays $250 "envy" for 5 aces as long as you bet at least $5 on the hand, however the dealer refused to pay the bonus because it was the "dragon" hand and not the players initial hand.

Was this the right ruling? Later playing at the aria, their pit-boss said that they pay the Envy bonus even if it is the "dragon" hand. At the time I let it go, but now that I think about it I get madder and madder. The player paid the $15 to play the hand, why shouldn't it qualify? Additionally, no-where does it say that envy does not apply to dragon hand. Is there any recourse I have? I tried to find the rules of the game on the nevada gaming commission, but nothing seems to mention this situation.

Good question; I've never come across it before.

I would be just as mad as you are about it. It's not required that the person getting the big Fortune hand be playing the bonus for the other players to get the Envy. (In fact, there's a legend about that...) So it should be the same with any non-Dealer hand that is good enough for an Envy. I really doubt that ruling is correct, but I also think casinos can have rules that differ on paytables and conditions, so they may have been within their rights to do this. At the least, I think it's a PR disaster for the Monte Carlo as everyone at your table feels cheated, and they just lost my business (meaningless to them since I don't play there...lol) in favor of the Aria.

I would suggest you PM Pacman (that's the Private Message function on here, top menu bar) and tell him what happened. He distributes the game with the Envy/Fortune bonus for Scientific Games/Bally/SHFL. He would likely be interested in knowing about this. I would also consider writing the Director of Table Games at the Monte Carlo and politely asking him for a definitive ruling, with as many details as possible (which table, as exact a time as you can) so he can look at the tape. You never know, and he's going to be the boss of whoever made that ruling in the pit. Again, with both, be polite and factual.

I hate the Dragon hand. Hate it. Wish they would throw it out of the game. I play 2 hands if at all possible, and if one of them hits big, the other gets the Envy, and there's never been any question about paying it; to my mind, they're the same. The Dragon is why I won't play PGP at either Golden Nugget or Gold Coast while in LV; they don't allow you to play 2 because they want to offer the Dragon. IMO they're losing money, because the Dragon doesn't always get sold, where my 2 hands play. But I think it's their way (at least in part) of avoiding the occasional conflict between customers playing 2 hands and players wanting in on a full table, especially when they try to intimidate the 2-hander into giving one up.

So, the legend is....a long time ago, probably more than 20 years, when this game was new (which is when I heard it). Everybody on the table except one player was betting the Fortune for the $5 so they'd be on the Envy. And of course, the guy who got the 7 card no-joker SF was the one not betting it. He told the table he had it before the dealer's hand was even exposed. Everybody screams, of course, and then he says, (depending on who's telling the story), "how much you all going to pay me from your Bonus?"

So the whole table discusses it, the others offended that the guy wants money out of their bonus when he's been refusing to play the sidebet the whole time, and they end up saying "nothing! You didn't play it, and you could have had $40,000, so why should we pay you?"

And so the guy mucks his hand, and the casino refuses to pay anybody. Just burns the cards into the rack without exposing them, as a fouled hand. He was just betting $10 or whatever, and with that hand, you're almost always going to push, because you have no pair and your highest card might be a 9 or whatever, along side the SF in the back, so it cost him $10 to spit in all their faces. Nice, huh?

Now, that USED to be the way it was. However, in the last 5 years or so, when I've told that story, whatever casino I was at consistently said they would expose and pay the hand whether the player mucked it or not; as long as the player said they had it, they check no matter what. They now feel they have an obligation on the Envy to pay it properly, and the point of me mentioning it is that perhaps there's some regulation they're enforcing, perhaps it's just industry or distributor consistency, that will help you make your case. Certainly they are on other games, where when you fold your hand, they still check for the sidebet bonus, on everything from UTH Trips bonus to 3CP Ante bonus if you've bet it, only burning your hand if you're not.

Anyways, I think it's worth an inquiry. JMHO.

Last time I was in Vegas I stayed at the Monte Carlo and frequently played the dragon hand. IIRC I was not allowed to make any side-bets on the hand, which to me made sense since there is some anti-selection going on in the first place, i.e. obviously you're not going to play the dragon hand if your original hand was 5 Aces. For the same reason, I would not be surprised if the dragon hand was in fact disqualified from envy payouts.

I had a 5 card straight flush on a dragon hand the 2 players next to me who had $5 on the fortune got the envy.

Yes, it gets paid, as triggered by any player hand, even a dragon hand, to any other player hand that has $5 or more on the bonus. This was an error.

Thank you for the replies.

I have tried to find an email for the director of table games for the monte carlo, but I can't seem to find any contact information. How else would you suggest to proceed? If this really was an error, I would like to try and have it rectified...

EDIT:: I have sent an email to casinocomments@montecarlo.com requesting to speak with the director of table-games -- I will follow up here if I reach some resolution

Ooh yeah I'd be pissed.

Everywhere I've ever played pays envy when the dragon hand hits something.

A lot of people who bet heavy on the fortune bet make sure the dragon hand gets played every hand for that potential big envy payout.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, it gets paid, as triggered by any player hand, even a dragon hand, to any other player hand that has $5 or more on the bonus. This was an error.

I once asked, and was told, the opposite.

As per your interpretation, would the player with the dragon hand get the full bonus, AND the envy on his own hand?

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, it gets paid, as triggered by any player hand, even a dragon hand, to any other player hand that has $5 or more on the bonus. This was an error.

I once asked, and was told, the opposite.

As per your interpretation, would the player with the dragon hand get the full bonus, AND the envy on his own hand?

Scott, no, the player with the dragon hand can only win even money ( - if he wins), but that dragon hand can trigger envy bonuses for other players who have $5 or more on their own bonus bets. I said that the dragon hand (like any active hand in the round) can trigger (but not receive itself) an envy bonus for any other player.

Let's say a player plays the dragon hand for a $5 hand bet. He gets a 7-card straight flush and wins $5 (minus commission, or $4.75.) Any other player in action with a $5 bonus bet with envy gets the $5,000 envy. Or is supposed to. Quite often, floor supervisors get things wrong.

So for what it's worth. I heard back from another source on this forum close to the game, and he says that it was properly handled. It is up to the casino to decide if they want to pay envy on the dragon. I'm going to let it go here, and just move my business from monte carlo to aria. Aria also has max 75k payouts, where monte-carlo was only 25k.

Also true. The dragon hand can trigger Envy bonuses, not must.

But, a casino shouldn't arbitrarily change game rules because its floormen are inexperienced or had made mistakes. If it pays a nickel envy on four of a kind, then it pays the $250 envy on Five aces. This is different from "Up to the casino," - this may sound more like covering for errors that should have been paid.

Play at the casinos who have Got It Together.

Pai Gow poker Envy is designed and approved with Pai Gow Poker, and is generally practiced to envy other player's hands when they get great hands, including dragon hands.

I've always taken the position that neither the dragon hand or banking improve or help the game's reliability or performance. If they don't pay envy on dragon hands, then don't offer or play them, instead of playing two spots.

Would just like to wrap this up. I spoke with a supervisor at the Monte Carlo, he looked into their rules and found that it does state that you can be "envy"ious of the dragon. He apologized for the wrong decision being made at the table, and is sending a check to everyone at the table.

They may have gotten it wrong, but I applaud them for making it right.

Quote: ljump12

Would just like to wrap this up. I spoke with a supervisor at the Monte Carlo, he looked into their rules and found that it does state that you can be "envy"ious of the dragon. He apologized for the wrong decision being made at the table, and is sending a check to everyone at the table.

They may have gotten it wrong, but I applaud them for making it right.

EXCELLENT!!

Way to follow it up and make them make it right.

I hope it can be said that our discussion here was helpful in you taking action on resolving this.

Very helpful -- Thank you all!

I'm glad you followed up and they took care of the situation for you.