Dieter
Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 1482
October 24th, 2014 at 9:10:16 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

Specifically, keeping with a "high roller" theme, the outside would read:

$5 minimum /$25 maximum (per spot)

The inside would read

$5 minimum (any combination) / $5 maximum any single bet.



The wording seems fine. The percentage is definitely there.


The biggest worry is that people will go broke too quickly and want to rebuy, consuming your $15k limit, and reducing your pizza sales potential.
The second biggest worry is that people will win too much, but your cashout limit protects you there. (They'll keep playing, would be my expectation.)

It's still possible to lay at most 5 straight + 20 split + 20 corner on a lucky number (125+240+120 out, if I remember your payouts), plus 5 on the street (8:1? 40 out). That can be a bit of action per player, but you've got a 34% edge. As long as the wheel is fair, you should be fine... but since this is the high limit wheel, have a pit boss around to watch for past posting and to change out the ball & croupier if things seem to start getting too hot.


All roulette bets must be placed with roulette chips, yes? (This would protect against a "Savannah", although capping and pinching are still viable.)


On a wholly unrelated note, how do you protect against someone cashing out the limit twice? Do you enforce a per individual buy-in limit (and how)? Are you doing something to say that only people who buy in can cash out?
May the cards fall in your favor.
Riva
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
  • Threads: 73
  • Posts: 449
October 24th, 2014 at 10:10:06 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

The wording seems fine. The percentage is definitely there.


The biggest worry is that people will go broke too quickly and want to rebuy, consuming your $15k limit, and reducing your pizza sales potential.
The second biggest worry is that people will win too much, but your cashout limit protects you there. (They'll keep playing, would be my expectation.)

It's still possible to lay at most 5 straight + 20 split + 20 corner on a lucky number (125+240+120 out, if I remember your payouts), plus 5 on the street (8:1? 40 out). That can be a bit of action per player, but you've got a 34% edge. As long as the wheel is fair, you should be fine... but since this is the high limit wheel, have a pit boss around to watch for past posting and to change out the ball & croupier if things seem to start getting too hot.


All roulette bets must be placed with roulette chips, yes? (This would protect against a "Savannah", although capping and pinching are still viable.)


On a wholly unrelated note, how do you protect against someone cashing out the limit twice? Do you enforce a per individual buy-in limit (and how)? Are you doing something to say that only people who buy in can cash out?



As for the wager limit....some new regulations for charitable gaming were recently put in place by the Governor. These rules allow e that under certain circumstances, for the house to be able to sell up to $30,000 in chips per-day. This would only apply to special church or community festivals like what we put on. It would not apply to the poker rooms because they are pretty much an anomaly of the charitable gaming regs. Nevertheless, this is HUGE, HUGE, HUGE for us, as we regularly sell out $15,000 by 9:00 PM every night.

We have no plans to increase our table limits because of the 30k per-day in chip sales. That would mean we'd have the same problem we have now, specifically: being unable to sell chips to people after 9:00 PM. And, as mentioned, when we can't sell chips, they typically don;' come in to the tent. That means we lose the admission revenue, as well as the beer and pizza revenue. Again, the 30K is HUGE!

As far as roulette chips....answer yes. They are unique roulette chips and not chips that can be used anywhere else in the tent. Players buy in right at the table using house money (chips) they purchased at the cashier's table near the entrance. We buy back the roulette chips with house chips when the player leaves the game.

However, as I posted earlier, it was not always that way. Years ago, the old timers that ran the game used house chips. I fought them on it for years. Players would put just a few dollars down and nobody knew whose bet belong to who. There were fights and confusion galore. Really, what is boiled down to was they were lazy and did not want to continuously muck chips. It costs us thousands in lost income per-night. Finally, they stopped showing up and, the first thing I did was to buy unique roulette chips. It immediately quadrupled our profits on roulette the first night. And, with out 20' double roulette, the person on the wheel in the middle is the mucker and it works just fine.

Please explain what a "Savannah" is.

As for cashing out twice..there's not much we can do about it. Savvy players simply go to the cage several times during the night. or, they give the chips to a pal to cash in for them. or, they simply sell their excess chips to a player on the floor who needs chips. Years ago, that state required that each player have a card. The card would note how much a player bought and how much they cashed in. The players knew how to get around that one too so, it was no longer required.

We have no processes regarding an individual purchasing or cashing in chips. We do however, know to the dollar, how much is out on the floor at any time and, what our maximum exposure is at check out time. It's a simple formula: chips sold plus any fills. We have NEVER, in 20 years of doing this, had to reach in to reserve cash drawer at the cashiers table.

Finally, as far as the wheel being fair, the answer is yes. We own our own 32" wheels and they are ALWAYS kept under lock and key when not in use. FYI...we used to rent roulette wheels and, I shared a while back, how a jilted wheel was put in to play during an event a few years ago. It was quite the caper and, I'm 100% certain, the rental company was in on the hoist. (long story).
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 108
  • Posts: 7238
October 24th, 2014 at 12:21:53 PM permalink
Ummm... big picture..... unless you are being outright cheated..... at the ridiculous house edges your games have..... and the ridiculous low limit placed on winnings..... LET THEM BET AS MUCH AS THEY WANT on Roulette....
bigfoot66
bigfoot66
Joined: Feb 5, 2010
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 1580
October 24th, 2014 at 1:23:15 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Ummm... big picture..... unless you are being outright cheated..... at the ridiculous house edges your games have..... and the ridiculous low limit placed on winnings..... LET THEM BET AS MUCH AS THEY WANT on Roulette....


We have tried to have this conversation with RIVA before with no luck. He is afraid that the school board will not tolerate any variance.

Riva why not say "Minimum bet $5, Maximum aggregate payout per player per round $200"

They can bet as much as they want but you are not gonna slide 'em more than $200 in chips each round. This also protects you in case someone gets the wise idea to bet $5 on the number, $5 on each of 4 pairs that includes the number, $5 on the street, etc to where you have larger exposure than you think.
Vote for Nobody 2020!
Riva
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
  • Threads: 73
  • Posts: 449
October 24th, 2014 at 2:09:50 PM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

We have tried to have this conversation with RIVA before with no luck. He is afraid that the school board will not tolerate any variance.

Riva why not say "Minimum bet $5, Maximum aggregate payout per player per round $200"

They can bet as much as they want but you are not gonna slide 'em more than $200 in chips each round. This also protects you in case someone gets the wise idea to bet $5 on the number, $5 on each of 4 pairs that includes the number, $5 on the street, etc to where you have larger exposure than you think.



You're right about the Board. They are so tight they still have their First Communion money!

Actually, an aggregate might pizz off players. Plus, the dealers would not understand it. To be candidly honest, if a player were to win $200, the last thing I/we want to have happen is for them to leave the table. Yes, they might win more but, more likely than not, the longer they stay, the more we are almost certain to win back. The only thing working against us in winning back the loot is the clock. When the clock hits 2:00 AM, it's all black.
Dieter
Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 1482
October 26th, 2014 at 10:13:09 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Please explain what a "Savannah" is.



It's a particular type of past-posting sleight of hand cheat. It relies on stacking multiple denomination chips (high denomination hidden on the bottom), and then switching it out for a lower denomination bet if the bet loses. If your roulette chips are all the same denomination and you only accept roulette chips in play at the roulette table, you have nothing to worry about - the move can't work.

If you do allow multiple denominations, your exposure is still limited by the table limit, and the maximum denomination you allow at the roulette table. I imagine that you might allow $1 or $5 chips at the "high roller" roulette table; the likely limit of your exposure to this cheat (say, a three chip stack) would be $8 per round.

My understanding is that you're running 3 dealers per table - 1 for the wheel and 1 for each layout - providing further scrutiny and reducing the oportunity for someone to try the move. If you see someone grabbing away a losing bet, that's your cue to watch extremely closely from then on.


The formal description
May the cards fall in your favor.
Riva
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
  • Threads: 73
  • Posts: 449
October 27th, 2014 at 8:39:54 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

It's a particular type of past-posting sleight of hand cheat. It relies on stacking multiple denomination chips (high denomination hidden on the bottom), and then switching it out for a lower denomination bet if the bet loses. If your roulette chips are all the same denomination and you only accept roulette chips in play at the roulette table, you have nothing to worry about - the move can't work.

If you do allow multiple denominations, your exposure is still limited by the table limit, and the maximum denomination you allow at the roulette table. I imagine that you might allow $1 or $5 chips at the "high roller" roulette table; the likely limit of your exposure to this cheat (say, a three chip stack) would be $8 per round.

My understanding is that you're running 3 dealers per table - 1 for the wheel and 1 for each layout - providing further scrutiny and reducing the opportunity for someone to try the move. If you see someone grabbing away a losing bet, that's your cue to watch extremely closely from then on.


The formal description



Thanks. Typically on the inside, the wagers are either $1 or $5, nothing in between.

And, if somebody played more than $5 on the inside, we would only pay on the $5 limit.

Having the dealer right on top of the layout makes it really hard to cheat. Not that it has not occurred but it is difficult. I mentioned in another thread, we did have a fellow jab us for $5,000 in about 20 minutes using a bogus wheel that we rented from a supplier. While he won $5,000, he only got out of the room with $500. Man was he corked!
Dieter
Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 1482
October 27th, 2014 at 1:27:54 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Thanks. Typically on the inside, the wagers are either $1 or $5, nothing in between.

And, if somebody played more than $5 on the inside, we would only pay on the $5 limit.



The particular cheat is usually done on one of the 2:1 spots. Still, with a dedicated dealer for each layout and another for the wheel, it's much harder to pull, and really not worth it for $50 or so (in my opinion).
May the cards fall in your favor.
Riva
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
  • Threads: 73
  • Posts: 449
October 27th, 2014 at 2:14:17 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

The particular cheat is usually done on one of the 2:1 spots. Still, with a dedicated dealer for each layout and another for the wheel, it's much harder to pull, and really not worth it for $50 or so (in my opinion).



On a 2:1 spot, the most they would be paid is $10 because we have a $5 max bet limit. Also, we have uniformed police at our events (real cops). Most of the trouble comes from people drinking too much.
Dieter
Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 1482
October 27th, 2014 at 3:51:44 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

On a 2:1 spot, the most they would be paid is $10 because we have a $5 max bet limit.



Many places consider the 2:1 column bets as "outside", rather than inside, allowing the higher limit.

Apparently, you're well protected against this particular cheat.
May the cards fall in your favor.

  • Jump to: