Broke our own rules last night.

Had a charitable gaming event last night. I worked roulette and it was pretty busy and it just stopped real suddenly. Then, late in the evening a guy walked to the table and plopped down $25 on a number straight up. I told him max bet is $5 on any single inside bet. He could have 50 $5 bets working but, none can be taller than $5.

Well, he had a few pops and started to get a bit ornery. I was up pretty good for the night and said that I'll raise the limit but only under certain conditions.

1. He could only bet one number "straight up" for $10. He agreed.

2. He had to stay in for a minimum of 19 spins, win or lose. He agreed.

3. After 19 spins, he could pull out but if he stayed, he's in for 19 more. He agreed.

4. I could end the game anytime any time after 5 spins (don't know how I got that number). He agreed.

5. Straight up win is 25:1 So, if he wins, he gets $250. He loses, we drag $10.

BTW...he was the only player at the table.

- First 19 spins, all losers. House up $190. Incredibly, he stays in.

- Next 17 spins, all losers. The guy is steaming. House up $360.

- Spin 36, he hits his number! $250 winner! House up $110.

- Spin 37, he bets 00. Single 0 drops. Gasp!

- Spin 38, (house is shutting down) he moves his bet to single zero. Last spin....You guessed it: double 00!

Final tally: House up $130.

Fun, but dumb.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

His first mistake was not coming downtown and betting on the $25 single zero wheel at any of the three Detroit casinos and getting the full payoff if he hits.

Seeing as he said he had a FEW POPS into him..... maybe the trade off lower odds was better than risking driving drunk

GO LOINS

If I ever have a chance to offer someone a 30%+ house edge bet, I'm not going to dissuade them by making up a bunch of stupid conditions.

Read the situation, folks. A charity gaming night. His "long haul" is 3 hours, meaning the house edge is critical.

But FWIW 0/00 bet/hit is meaningless, just numbers.

Quote: Riva

Final tally: House up $130.

Fun, but dumb.

Two questions:

Will he be back?

Will he expect the same special treatment again?


I know that our neighborhood tribal casino bent a few table rules for one patron one time, and then refused the next time. He made a big fuss, threatened lawsuits, blah blah. Not worth it, IMO. The rules should be the rules for everyone.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

We bent the rules for a bj player, well upped the limits to $25 per hand and three hands max, and lost almost $3,000 to him. And this from a game with a house edge nearly 9%

Well then, you probably recall the story at a local Detroit Poker room (Utica?) that had a few BJ tables. The charity let a guy bet $100 chips with standard casino payouts/odds (huge dumb). End of play, the guy is up $7,000. Trouble is, the charity did not have $7,000 from the night's action. The poker room had to cover for the charity which is clearly against the law. MGCB padlocked the place.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Never heard that and I'm not far from there. We had to do the same and we kept running.

Got is straight from the Gaming Control Board.

You could have kept running but, if the player wants to cash out, regardless of what time it is, you pay!

That said, I agree with you; the only way to get your money back from a bad run is to keep playing. However, it that bad run occurs close to "last call" you're toast!

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

he got paid. bank right across the parking lot.

Well, that fixed that problem, didn't it?

We have an ATM right in our room/tent and, it stays busy all night. In fact, with the money share on the interchange fee, it sometimes makes more than a BJ table!

Quote: Riva

We have an ATM right in our room/tent and, it stays busy all night. In fact, with the money share on the interchange fee, it sometimes makes more than a BJ table!

WHY are so many people anxious to gamble for charity ... are there no gambling for real opportunities nearby?

Quote: FleaStiff

WHY are so many people anxious to gamble for charity ... are there no gambling for real opportunities nearby?

First, there are some people in southeast Michigan that will not go in to the city of Detroit FOR ANY REASON. All of Detroit's casinos are in downtown Detroit which is relatively safe. Still, it's Detroit.

People like charitable "poker" because it's very local and you know most of the players every day. The only difference between poker at a casino and charity is that at a charity game, no more than $15,000 in chips can be sold per-day.

With regards to charity gaming for traditional games, there are several reasons.

1. It's not Detroit.

2. You can bet as little as $1 whereas most casinos in Detroit are much steeper, particularly on weekends.

3. Booze is cheap.

4. Most know that the money goes to a local cause (but still want to win nevertheless)

5. Most come in with a group of friends and make a night of it.

6. It's not Detroit.

Quote: Riva

2. You can bet as little as $1 whereas most casinos in Detroit are much steeper, particularly on weekends.

$1 vs $10+ table min, plus the same mentality that makes people want to attend fundraiser pancake or spaghetti dinners.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Actually, the party pit at mgm was open and you can bet $1 at bj there. Albeit with 25 cent ante and even money bj's.

2:1 bj + house wins ties, proceeds go to charity vs 25c ante & 1:1 bj...

Not going into Detroit may swing it.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Actually, the party pit at mgm was open and you can bet $1 at bj there. Albeit with 25 cent ante and even money bj's.

.25 ante in blackjack??? House pays even money a BJ?? I never heard of that in my life.

Even with the house taking ties, I don't think our players would swallow the .25 ante pill. But, it is a very intriguing thought though. Hmmmm?

I bet you made all of those silly requirements but didn't lift the max $500 payout. Hell I would bet you didn't even mention it to him.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

There are no 2:1 bj games, even charity, that i know of. Don't know about Riva's game.

If I recall correctly, Riva has stated several times that their game is 8d H17, 2:1 on blackjacks (to ease dealer training, and somewhat soften the blow of), house takes all ties.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

It's only if you wish to bet less that the posted table minimum. Otherwise no ante and 6:5 bj.

Michigan has to be the most gambling-crazy state in the union. Why would you play at these charity games when there are about 50,000 casinos in the state?!?

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Probably the most unintelligent state thanks to Detroit. As soon as I cross south of 8 mile, the stupidity level goes through the roof.

You have Slim Shady.

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Quote: GWAE

I bet you made all of those silly requirements but didn't lift the max $500 payout. Hell I would bet you didn't even mention it to him.

Gwae, Gwae. Gwae... such anger at such an innocent endeavor. Chill, babycakes!

The $500 max payout is posted on the wall every 4 feet throughout the entire room. If you do not see it beforehand, you are either Helen Keller and/or illiterate. Sheesh!

Quote: Riva

Gwae, Gwae. Gwae... such anger at such an innocent endeavor. Chill, babycakes!

The $500 max payout is posted on the wall every 4 feet throughout the entire room. If you do not see it beforehand, you are either Helen Keller and/or illiterate. Sheesh!

but so are the table max but you went with different max for this player.

Sorry for the anger, I just think it is wrong to offer these games. Shame on the consumers for even playing.

I would also like to see a 503c report for one of these "charity nights" to see where the money is actually going and how much is actually being used for charity.

The guy probably wouldn't even be obligated to continue gambling if he won early on you, so you're lucky he didn't.

Quote: GWAE

but so are the table max but you went with different max for this player.

Sorry for the anger, I just think it is wrong to offer these games. Shame on the consumers for even playing.

I would also like to see a 503c report for one of these "charity nights" to see where the money is actually going and how much is actually being used for charity.

To begin with, you are wrong. These are not "consumers" entering in to a grocery store to purchase corn. These are "players", that know that when they enter, and if they play, they are partaking in a game of chance. You are starting to sound like Ralph Nader!!

And, as it relates to documenting where the money ultimately goes.....well...the law in Michigan is quite clear on those matters. EVERY penny that a charity takes in must be recorded as to the amount gathered, and to the amount that is ultimately dispensed to a charitable cause. ANY funny business, you go to jail. Does it happen? Sure. And, all the perps are in jail.

The bottom line is, and what you advocate, you want charities to offer odds and payouts that are the same as a real casino. My advice to you is, simply go back to your favorite casino and ignore the fact that the proceeds from our event, and hundreds similar events, help worthwhile charitable causes and/or organizations everywhere.

Do you apply the same scrutiny to the Salvation Army's red kettle's? Too bad. So Sad. It's fundraising "Gwae". Sheesh!

Sounds like it's a trashy low class operation even if it is for charity.

Quote: Riva

To begin with, you are wrong. These are not "consumers" entering in to a grocery store to purchase corn. These are "players", that know that when they enter, and if they play, they are partaking in a game of chance. You are starting to sound like Ralph Nader!!

And, as it relates to documenting where the money ultimately goes.....well...the law in Michigan is quite clear on those matters. EVERY penny that a charity takes in must be recorded as to the amount gathered, and to the amount that is ultimately dispensed to a charitable cause. ANY funny business, you go to jail. Does it happen? Sure. And, all the perps are in jail.

The bottom line is, and what you advocate, you want charities to offer odds and payouts that are the same as a real casino. My advice to you is, simply go back to your favorite casino and ignore the fact that the proceeds from our event, and hundreds similar events, help worthwhile charitable causes and/or organizations everywhere.

Do you apply the same scrutiny to the Salvation Army's red kettle's? Too bad. So Sad. It's fundraising "Gwae". Sheesh!

I hate the argument that you think these people are here for charity. They are there because it is a convenient place for them to gamble. Your players have no idea how bad the odds are. People are there because they think they can win money, not because it goes to charity.

And yes I do apply the same scrutiny to the Salvation Army. Are you aware that the CEO of the Salvation Army makes almost $1 million dollars a year. Yeah thats a great place for me to donate to.

Quote: GWAE

I hate the argument that you think these people are here for charity. They are there because it is a convenient place for them to gamble. Your players have no idea how bad the odds are. People are there because they think they can win money, not because it goes to charity.

And yes I do apply the same scrutiny to the Salvation Army. Are you aware that the CEO of the Salvation Army makes almost $1 million dollars a year. Yeah thats a great place for me to donate to.

No, Gwae, you called them "consumers". You are either a consumer's advocate or, a sorry losing gambler's apologist. Probably both.

Furthermore, I would have to venture that 90% of players that enter in to a casino throughout the planet, have little or no idea what the odds/payout on a specific game really are. Because, if they did, Las Vegas would be a cloistered monastery, as opposed to the gambling capital of the world. Such utter naivete on your part.

Lastly, if your jaundice goes so deep as to how much the CEO of a $5 BILLION charitable organization earns per-year (the Salvation Army), you have simply demonstrated your illiteracy surrounding both big business and big charity in the 21st Century.

Again..Too bad. So Sad.

Quote: Riva

Had a charitable gaming event last night. I worked roulette and it was pretty busy and it just stopped real suddenly. Then, late in the evening a guy walked to the table and plopped down $25 on a number straight up. I told him max bet is $5 on any single inside bet. He could have 50 $5 bets working but, none can be taller than $5.

Well, he had a few pops and started to get a bit ornery. I was up pretty good for the night and said that I'll raise the limit but only under certain conditions.

1. He could only bet one number "straight up" for $10. He agreed.
......

I don' think you know the math.

This rule is actually BAD for the casino. It increases the variance and lowers the total take.

Quote: andysif

I don' think you know the math.

This rule is actually BAD for the casino. It increases the variance and lowers the total take.

I agree.

It was fun, but dumb.

deleted, best not to respond

Quote: GWAE

deleted, best not to respond

Gwae, chill, baby cakes! Chill.

Quote: Riva

Gwae, chill, baby cakes! Chill.

I am chill. It just really gets on my nerves how charities take in millions and millions but have high paid CEOs and only give back small percentages of what they take in. If they gave back as much as they took in, there wouldn't be a need to ask for donations at every check out because people would actually be getting helped.

Quote: GWAE

I am chill. It just really gets on my nerves how charities take in millions and millions but have high paid CEOs and only give back small percentages of what they take in. If they gave back as much as they took in, there wouldn't be a need to ask for donations at every check out because people would actually be getting helped.

ugh!

You are so naive. You are so very, utterly wrong.

There are, Gwae, so many checks and balances surrounding charitable giving that it would make your head spin.

Time to put up or, shut up. Please give SPECIFIC examples of the type of abuse that you assert. No " I know it exists". Provide SPECIFIC DATA!

Duh!

that is easy. How do you feel about charities only giving out LESS than 10% of monies received.

http://www.tampabay.com/americas-worst-charities/

how about these charities that have been fined a ton of money.
http://charitysearch.apps.cironline.org/

Quote: Riva

ugh!

You are so naive. You are so very, utterly wrong.

There are, Gwae, so many checks and balances surrounding charitable giving that it would make your head spin.

Time to put up or, shut up. Please give SPECIFIC examples of the type of abuse that you assert. No " I know it exists". Provide SPECIFIC DATA!

Duh!

Someone other than the legitimately needy is making money somehow off this.

" Well, he had a few pops and started to get a bit ornery. I was up pretty good for the night and said that I'll raise the limit but only under certain conditions. "

"Seeing as he said he had a FEW POPS into him..... maybe the trade off lower odds was better than risking driving drunk "

How is this different than rolling a drunk ? ? ?

Oh that's right. It was for charity !

Your witness, Hamilton.

Quote: GWAE

that is easy. How do you feel about charities only giving out LESS than 10% of monies received.

http://www.tampabay.com/americas-worst-charities/

How do I feel? I feel crappy. And, those that perpetuate those kind of scams deserve what's coming to them. And, I hope it is severe.

However, do I believe this is indicative of all charitable organizations in this country? Absolutely not.

I can only speak for my own organization.....100% of the revenue that we generate surrounding our events is handed over to the organization. Moreover, 100% of the money that the organization spends and/or disperses is 100% transparent and publically accountable for by a third-party, independent CPA firm. (starting to sink in?)

Frankly, I happen to think that you are stinky unlucky at the gaming tables and are looking for somebody to blame for your own bad luck. Rather than blame charities and non-profits, I suggest you look in the mirror and, for a change, stay out of casinos. Try gardening. It's more therapeutic. Sheesh.

There's a lot of ire coming out towards charity gaming.

I don't hear the same ire being directed at, say, charity auctions, where people can easily end up paying more than retail prices for an item.

The edge on these games is better than a lot of state lotteries. I understand that the lottery is a "voluntary tax on the mathematically challenged", but some people play them for fun anyway, since they derive a dollar's worth of enjoyment from scratching the ticket.

It's entirely plausible that the people who are playing these games are having a good time and don't regret this manner of making charitable donations.


It would be reasonable to get angry if they weren't honoring their posted payout tables - like suddenly only paying 20:1 on roulette, instead of the 25:1 the sign says.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that these games aren't on the up-and-up, even if they do have shaved payouts. If they were stacking the decks, loading the dice, or gaffing the wheels... sure, that's a problem. They're not, as far as I can tell. They're changing the payouts a bit, and telling people what they are before they play.


If they were being really despicable, they wouldn't let players cash out, they'd require them to spend all the "winnings" in the gift shop of overpriced donated premiums.

Riva....

[I know this probably isn't the right thread to ask, but is your most recent thread, so I'll ask here anyway.]


What are your payouts on craps? I remember hearing you shaved the payouts on the hop bets (2, 3, 11, 12, 7, and hardways)....but what about place bets, pass line, odds (how much X odds can players go, if any?), etc. ? Is the pass line the same, or do you do something like the PL loses on 11 on the comeout roll...or something like that?

Place bets pay 7:6 on 6/8, 7:5 on 5/9, and 9:5 on 4/10? Or are they worse? If worse, what are the payouts on those bets?


For roulette, I understand you guys shave the payouts for inside payouts (20:1 on a number straight up, for example). What about outside bets? Red/black still pay even money? First/second/third dozen or column pay 2:1 or are those shaved too? Just curious.


PS: I think you should really take a second look at max bets. If you have such a huge edge (roulette, 20:1 for example), it is silly to not allow someone to bet more money. Of course, you wouldn't want a situation where some guy bets $1000 on outside bets and clears the bank with 2 spins, gets up and leaves. But, if someone is betting within a casino-tolerable limit (even $25 inside straight up, I think you guys shoud be able to handle)........you're just leaving more money in the player's pockets instead of yours (or whatever organization is doing the charity). If I could bank a roulette table with those huge high HE's......well, I don't think I'd be limiting anyone's action. Well, yes I would to a degree, but not anywhere near the tiny limits you're putting out there.

Sounds like the problem raising the maximum bet and requiring 19 bets, he wasn't going to pay the man due to the maximum cash out of $500. A con then accusing victims or anyone to question him of pulling a con, he uses another con accusing them of having a gambling problem.


Three wins at $250 and 19 $10 bets=$620=500.

It would just have been more ethical saying no keeping a $5 max bet where the $500 limit would have been less likely to be a factor. Just stealing legally and their laws are a joke in Michigan.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Sounds like the problem raising the maximum bet and requiring 19 bets, he wasn't going to pay the man due to the maximum cash out of $500. A con then accusing victims or anyone to question him of pulling a con, he uses another con accusing them of having a gambling problem.


Three wins at $250 and 19 $10 bets=$620=500.

It would just have been more ethical saying no keeping a $5 max bet where the $500 limit would have been less likely to be a factor. Just stealing legally and their laws are a joke in Michigan.

Riva did give himself a one-way stop point after 5 bets, right? Where, if the guy won twice early and got up 500, he could stop the game? I would think, at a minimum, if the guy had gotten that lucky, he would have either stopped the game or reminded the guy the payout limit was 500 and he couldn't win more. But I'm not Riva and I wasn't there, so I don't know.

I'm confused about the outrage over this. I give outright to charity every year, and when I was making good money, I gave a lot, just by signing a payroll deduction slip. I never had a fraction of the fun this would have been in the donation of money. With Riva's org almost all-volunteer, their overhead to any particular charity probably isn't very much, and the charity's going to make the money Axel's wondering about, which is the clearly advertised point; so where's the beef? If, as a fundraiser (which I was several times) I could have done more than stand in front of people with my hand out and a lame slideshow, I would have welcomed the opportunity to provide some entertainment value for the donors.

Quote: Riva

I can only speak for my own organization.....100% of the revenue that we generate surrounding our events is handed over to the organization. Moreover, 100% of the money that the organization spends and/or disperses is 100% transparent and publically accountable for by a third-party, independent CPA firm. (starting to sink in?)

If it is that transparent then you should provide a link to one of your organizations and we can all take a look at their 503c filings and see how much is actually being turned over to them and what they are doing with it. Just because you say they are receiving it all doesn't mean they actually are.

Quote: Riva

Frankly, I happen to think that you are stinky unlucky at the gaming tables and are looking for somebody to blame for your own bad luck. Rather than blame charities and non-profits, I suggest you look in the mirror and, for a change, stay out of casinos. Try gardening. It's more therapeutic. Sheesh.

Really? We are discussing the ethics of charitable gaming and you attack me personally? That shows me a lot about your organization.

Quote: RS

Riva....

[I know this probably isn't the right thread to ask, but is your most recent thread, so I'll ask here anyway.]


What are your payouts on craps? I remember hearing you shaved the payouts on the hop bets (2, 3, 11, 12, 7, and hardways)....but what about place bets, pass line, odds (how much X odds can players go, if any?), etc. ? Is the pass line the same, or do you do something like the PL loses on 11 on the comeout roll...or something like that?

Place bets pay 7:6 on 6/8, 7:5 on 5/9, and 9:5 on 4/10? Or are they worse? If worse, what are the payouts on those bets?


For roulette, I understand you guys shave the payouts for inside payouts (20:1 on a number straight up, for example). What about outside bets? Red/black still pay even money? First/second/third dozen or column pay 2:1 or are those shaved too? Just curious.


PS: I think you should really take a second look at max bets. If you have such a huge edge (roulette, 20:1 for example), it is silly to not allow someone to bet more money. Of course, you wouldn't want a situation where some guy bets $1000 on outside bets and clears the bank with 2 spins, gets up and leaves. But, if someone is betting within a casino-tolerable limit (even $25 inside straight up, I think you guys shoud be able to handle)........you're just leaving more money in the player's pockets instead of yours (or whatever organization is doing the charity). If I could bank a roulette table with those huge high HE's......well, I don't think I'd be limiting anyone's action. Well, yes I would to a degree, but not anywhere near the tiny limits you're putting out there.

Happy to share...

Our payouts are structured just about like every charitable game that I have ever attended. It's when a charity does not shave points and limit certain kinds of bets that it get's in to trouble. In other words, a charity thinking that it can operate exactly like a casino. A few bad turns, no time to recover and then, you have to somehow pay for all the overhead to put on the event. I have heard horror stories where a charity has lost their butts at their event because (1) they experienced a bad run, (2) they structured their odds and payouts to be like a real casino and (3) the clock hit midnight.

Craps is perhaps our most profitable game. And, it is also the game where players make the most money. So, our 14' table is jammed all night long. A local gentleman just donated another 14' table to us so, no we can get every player who wants to get in to a game a place to park.

I have described our payouts before but here we go....

We do not allow odds anywhere on the table. All wagers, pass, don't pass, come, place are paid 1:1. There are several reasons for this...Allowing odds gives the player the same advantage as the house. We're not here to be on a level field. We must have a built-in house edge to make money and/or stave off bad runs. And, believe me, we've had some bad runs in the past. Also, we don't allow odds because oftentimes our dealers are volunteers and have no clue when and or how much to pay. There are mistakes and, it takes up time. "TIME" is are most precious commodity in charitable fundraising.

In the middle, everything is shaved by about 30%. So, a 12 pays: 20:1, a 3 pays :10:1. They payouts are printed right in to the custom layout so, we are not putting duct tape over the numbers and writing in our shaved numbers. That's bush.

The field pays 1:1 and double on 2 and 12. Since there are no odds, almost everybody plays the field. We get very little "come" action simply because it is the same as a pass/place bet. Actually, we get a lot of don't pass action and we allow players to take them down. Most don't simply because, I believe, they don't know that they can.

Minimums are $2 with a $5 max. You can bet $1 on anything in the middle, up to $5. All the prop bets are there; horn, high horn, any craps, any seven. Again, all payouts are shaved BY 30%.

Most of the time we hire pro dealers to run this game however, one of our own people joins them or sits in the box. If one of the pro were to bring in a "friend" we'd know it soon enough however, it has probably happened once or twice through the years. For that reason, we never hire pro dealers for BJ. We'd be broke in 2 hours if we did. Learned that lesson the hard way!

Again, craps is always busy and a second table will help pick up the overflow. Players know that the clock is always ticking so they, like us, want to get in as many rolls as possible. If the game slows down, they get board and leave. Leaving is not a good thing. I have attached a pic of our craps game from one of our events. As you can see, it is a very big operation with as many as 500 players in the tent at any one time.

As for roulette....minimum bet $3 maximum $5. On the outside, the minimum is "per spot". So $3 on red, $3 on odd, etc. On the inside, the $3 can be spread anywhere the player wants. So, a player can have dozens of $1 bets working on the inside must have at least $3 and, no single bet can be greater than $5.

Red/Black, odd/even, 1-18, 19-36 all pay 1:1. First 12, second 12 and third 12 all pay 2:1. We have people park at the table all night just playing the outside spots and having a riot. They never bet inside, but that's OK with us. You can't get hurt too bad paying 1:1 or 2:1 with a max wager of $5, even with 20 players all piling up on the same spot.

BTW, I should mention that we have two, 20' roulette tables, with a layout on each side and the wheel in the middle. As such, we can handle about 40 roulette players in the room at one time, and frequently do. One would think with that many people, there might be cheating, past posting, dragging off bets, etc. It's hard to do because there is a dealer hovering over each layout. The dealer in the middle spins the wheel and makes the call--and does all the mucking. Despite their size, the game runs like a clock.
We even provide cushy stools for the players. One of the best investments we ever made because, it keeps the players there!

If shaving points on the inside gets you yanky, stop reading now......

We offer all the bets wagers as in a casino, straight, split, square, line, column, etc. Every payout is shaved by about 30%. So, a straight pays 25:1, a split pays 12:1 and downward, etc. So, a $5 straight pays $125. BELIEVE ME, we have paid a zillion of those and the players never complain about the shaved payout. However, for the most part, players put down $1 wagers on the inside. Remember, most people that come in to the room buy about $25 -$50 worth of chips and they want it to last all night, win or lose.

Finally, as to your point about looking at allowing bigger max bets. There are several reason why we stay small--on purpose.

1. Risk. At the end of the day, we can get murdered just like a casino. However, unlike a casino, we do not have the luxury of "TIME" to recover. So, if we get murdered, we prefer to be murdered small as opposed to murdered large.

2. By allowing for larger wagers, we are certain to piss off players who win big, only to be able to cash out for a max $500. Plus, if a player loses big, things could get ugly.

3. This is the point that few understand....Michigan only allows a charity to sell $15,000 worth of chips per-day. Plus, you have to deduct all the chips in the dealer's start-up tray from that amount. So, if we allow bigger wagers, that requires a bigger purchase of chips. So, one player could come in and buy in for say, $5,000 leaving us with that much less to sell to the other 399 people standing in line.

It's important to remember that charities ("if" they are smart) makes money 3 ways, with each generating about the same amount of money.

(1) The gate. charging a nominal fee simply to enter, typically $5-$10. Multiply that by 400-500 per-night!

(2) Gaming. Profits from the tables over a 6-8 hour window.

(3) Concessions. Food and booze for 500 people, it's that simple.

So, if we let say, 15 players in, and each buys in for say, $1,000, we're sold out for the night, by law! That's 385 people who will not come in through the gate and, 385 people who will not eat or drink in the room. So, as you can see, it's not just gaming. It's a 3-legged stool. And, if you suggest simply selling more chips than the state allows, that's not so good of an idea. Just ask the 40 or so poker rooms here in Michigan that have been permanently pad-locked by the State for doing just that!

http://tinypic.com/r/2ibenex/8