etr102
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August 20th, 2014 at 10:33:44 PM permalink
Sorry, not sure if this qualifies as a table game or a slot machine since there is no live dealer.

Caesars Windsor recently got rid of their Interblock Craps/Sic-Bo game and replaced it with a game called Big Three-Six Wheel. It's got the same annoying slow moving pace and lack of atmosphere that any other Interblock game has.

Was just curious if The Wizard or any of the rest of you knew much about this game? What's the vig? What strategies if any minimize the vig?

The game play is quite simple. Minimum bet is $3, but making three individual $1 bets is allowed. There are three large wheels, so you bet on where each of 3 large wheels will land. I think each wheel has roughly 36 spaces with 6 different symbols scattered throughout in varying frequencies. There's Cherrys, Bells, Bars, Double-Bars, Triple-Bars and Sevens. I don't have the exact frequency or payout for each symbol. Hopefully this information is available somewhere. Additionally, you can bet that all 3 wheels will land on the same symbol (ie 3 cherrys, 3 bells, etc) for a bigger payout.

Anyway, what words of wisdom can you all give me on this game? I'm guessing it's probably got a pretty big HE, but just curious about how high it is.
beachbumbabs
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August 20th, 2014 at 10:42:18 PM permalink
Quote: etr102

Sorry, not sure if this qualifies as a table game or a slot machine since there is no live dealer.

Caesars Windsor recently got rid of their Interblock Craps/Sic-Bo game and replaced it with a game called Big Three-Six Wheel. It's got the same annoying slow moving pace and lack of atmosphere that any other Interblock game has.

Was just curious if The Wizard or any of the rest of you knew much about this game? What's the vig? What strategies if any minimize the vig?

The game play is quite simple. Minimum bet is $3, but making three individual $1 bets is allowed. There are three large wheels, so you bet on where each of 3 large wheels will land. I think each wheel has roughly 36 spaces with 6 different symbols scattered throughout in varying frequencies. There's Cherrys, Bells, Bars, Double-Bars, Triple-Bars and Sevens. I don't have the exact frequency or payout for each symbol. Hopefully this information is available somewhere. Additionally, you can bet that all 3 wheels will land on the same symbol (ie 3 cherrys, 3 bells, etc) for a bigger payout.

Anyway, what words of wisdom can you all give me on this game? I'm guessing it's probably got a pretty big HE, but just curious about how high it is.



SWAG'ing it, you're describing a 3 reel slot machine with 36 stops and no blanks, deconstructed and presented in a different layout. The HE would be pretty straightforward to calculate if you gathered the data (symbols in order on each wheel, and the payouts on each paid combination from the table). If it's displayed like a Big Six wheel, with all symbols fully visible, that seems very do-able.

Promotional video for the Big 3 Six Wheel
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
tringlomane
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August 20th, 2014 at 10:48:46 PM permalink
I guess the big question is, are the symbols weighted at all? I assume not, but since it's not "representative" of a "live gambling game", there is a possibility it could be. If unweighted, it could be figured out with the appropriate cell phone pics (of all the wheel possibilities and respective payouts). If weighted, best of luck figuring it out.
tringlomane
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August 20th, 2014 at 10:48:46 PM permalink
duplicate
Ibeatyouraces
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August 21st, 2014 at 5:36:31 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Dieter
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August 21st, 2014 at 6:21:23 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

SWAG'ing it, you're describing a 3 reel slot machine with 36 stops and no blanks, deconstructed and presented in a different layout.



Payout structure is different. A slot machine, you place one bet, and any winning pattern yields... something.

Big 3 Six is 3 Big Six type wheels run at the same time. You can place individual bets on each wheel, plus a side bet for "trips" that pays if all three wheels land on the same symbol.

Spins are automatic, at regular intervals, if bets are placed or not.

G5 Wheel Generator page - they say 32 stops per wheel, 7.81% expected edge.

Edit: added edge from webpage, fix style error in game name.
May the cards fall in your favor.
beachbumbabs
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August 21st, 2014 at 6:29:28 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Payout structure is different. A slot machine, you place one bet, and any winning pattern yields... something.

Big Three 6 is 3 Big Six type wheels run at the same time. You can place individual bets on each wheel, plus a side bet for "trips" that pays if all three wheels land on the same symbol.

Spins are automatic, at regular intervals, if bets are placed or not.

G5 Wheel Generator page - they say 32 stops per wheel.



I get that, but structuring the math would be very similar, just more elements, like on a machine that pays 1 or 2 cherries as well as 3 line wins, just reiterate the cherry element for each wheel and each symbol, whatever it pays. Some elements would have to be similar to calculating a roulette number, I suppose, since every symbol pays something if you bet it, each wheel independently.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Dieter
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August 21st, 2014 at 6:38:04 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

I guess the big question is, are the symbols weighted at all? I assume not, but since it's not "representative" of a "live gambling game", there is a possibility it could be. If unweighted, it could be figured out with the appropriate cell phone pics (of all the wheel possibilities and respective payouts). If weighted, best of luck figuring it out.



We have the stated edge from the manufacturer ("expected house edge 7.81%"), we may be able to infer the (lack of) weighting from the paytable / symbol frequency.

I looked at one for a whole 5 or 6 minutes; there are just enough mechanical elements in place to be annoying when trying to determine the wheel symbols.

Next time I'm bored, I'll see if I can get a picture or two and count the symbols on the wheels.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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August 21st, 2014 at 6:50:28 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I get that, but structuring the math would be very similar,



Took me a few minutes to see where you're going with that. Yes, the side bet is not unlike a 3 reel 1 line slot machine (with a paytable that didn't really pique my interest), but the core game is Big Six, with fewer stops and a different paytable.

I did find the history display to be somewhat novel - history of past spins is plainly visible to players. This might encourage some interesting action from voodoo players.
May the cards fall in your favor.
miplet
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August 21st, 2014 at 10:10:01 AM permalink
If the payouts in this picture are correct and there are 32 stops each equally likely to come up and each wheel is the same, I came up with the following:
SymbolPaysWaysPlayer EV
7301-0.03125
3 bar142-0.0625
2 bar93-0.0625
1 bar64-0.125
bell37-0.125
cherry115-0.0625

And for the 3 wheel side bet:
SymbolPaysWaysReturn
7100010.03051757813
3 bar50080.1220703125
2 bar100270.08239746094
1 bar25640.048828125
bell103430.104675293
cherry333750.3089904785
Mixed Bar56300.09613037109
Loser-128320-0.8642578125
Total32768-0.07064819336

Looks like 7.06% house edge. Might have a typo and/or braino somewhere, or they changed some payouts.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
Dieter
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August 21st, 2014 at 10:19:03 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

If the payouts in this picture are correct and there are 32 stops each equally likely to come up and each wheel is the same, I came up with the following:

SymbolPaysWaysPlayer EV
7301-0.03125
3 bar142-0.0625
2 bar93-0.0625
1 bar64-0.125
bell37-0.125
cherry115-0.0625



Are your calculations "to 1", or "for 1"?
May the cards fall in your favor.
miplet
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August 21st, 2014 at 10:22:41 AM permalink
"to 1"
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Dieter
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August 21st, 2014 at 10:50:34 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

"to 1"



Sorry, I should have quoted the side bet, I guess. My numbers match yours on the main game, but not on the side bet.
May the cards fall in your favor.
miplet
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August 21st, 2014 at 10:54:28 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Sorry, I should have quoted the side bet, I guess. My numbers match yours on the main game, but not on the side bet.


I used "to 1" for both. What numbers are different?
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Dieter
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August 21st, 2014 at 11:03:27 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

I used "to 1" for both. What numbers are different?



On the side bet, your numbers look like they're "for 1", except I don't understand why the -1 for loser instead of 0.

0.0305480957
0.1223144531
0.0832214355
0.05078125
0.1151428223
0.4119873047
0.1153564453
-0.8642578125

... but I'm not sure if that's me grinding out the numbers wrong.
May the cards fall in your favor.
miplet
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August 21st, 2014 at 11:19:03 AM permalink
The side bet is just one bet. You bet $1 and would get paid based on the 3 wheels. It's not 7 separate bets like the main game. If they came up 777 you win $1000 plus you keep the $1 you bet. 3 bells and you win $10 plus you keep your $1. The -1 for loser is because you lose your $1 bet.
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beachbumbabs
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August 21st, 2014 at 11:26:15 AM permalink
I don't see how 3- 6 wedges could correlate to the youtube video I posted with 3-32 wedge wheels. Aren't they two different versions?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Dieter
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August 21st, 2014 at 11:26:42 AM permalink
All of that makes sense. My numbers just don't come out the same as yours. Trying to understand why.

Edit: I had a formula error in one cell. Now my end total matches, and that's good enough for me.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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August 21st, 2014 at 11:34:27 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I don't see how 3- 6 wedges could correlate to the youtube video I posted with 3-32 wedge wheels. Aren't they two different versions?



The 3 wheels with 6 wedges is the betting layout on the player's screen.
May the cards fall in your favor.
miplet
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August 21st, 2014 at 11:34:59 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

All of that makes sense. My numbers just don't come out the same as yours. Trying to understand why.


Looks like they match to me. Here is a "for 1" table:
SymbolPaysWaysReturn
7100110.0305480957
3 bar50180.1223144531
2 bar101270.08322143555
1 bar26640.05078125
bell113430.1151428223
cherry433750.4119873047
Mixed Bar66300.1153564453
Loser0283200
Total327680.9293518066
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
Dieter
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August 21st, 2014 at 11:41:04 AM permalink
Yep... once I found my typo in one cell, my total matches.
May the cards fall in your favor.
etr102
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August 21st, 2014 at 1:12:10 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

The 3 wheels with 6 wedges is the betting layout on the player's screen.



I can confirm that Dieter's betting layout is indeed the one on the Big Three-6 at Caesars Windsor.

The only thing I"m not sure of is the wheels themselves. How did you figure out the amount of wedges and the frequency of each symbol? Do you have one of these games at your local casino?

I thought I counted 36 total wedges but I could be wrong. Part of the wheel is always obscured so I had to do a bit of extrapolation.
miplet
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August 21st, 2014 at 7:34:15 PM permalink
Quote: etr102

I can confirm that Dieter's betting layout is indeed the one on the Big Three-6 at Caesars Windsor.

The only thing I"m not sure of is the wheels themselves. How did you figure out the amount of wedges and the frequency of each symbol? Do you have one of these games at your local casino?

I thought I counted 36 total wedges but I could be wrong. Part of the wheel is always obscured so I had to do a bit of extrapolation.


The youtube video on the first page shows and the game makers web site states 32 wedges. Unless one of the bets has a player ev of 0 or more, those are the frequency of each symbol.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
etr102
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August 22nd, 2014 at 7:35:34 AM permalink
I appreciate all of the analysis and work you guys do on this board. This answers my questions. It looks like as long as you stick to betting on the 7s (and stay away from the 3 wheel side bet), the HE isn't nearly as bad as I thought.
Dieter
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August 22nd, 2014 at 10:54:01 AM permalink
I would stay away from the bell and the single bar, personally. The side bet actually doesn't seem too bad.

Even the bell and single bar bets don't seem particularly worse than the best bet available in "normal" Big Six.

Personally, when I want to just chill out and watch dancing lights for a while, I go down to the racebook and watch the dog & pony show (in my local joint, they happen to be the most comfortable chairs available - there are some slightly more comfortable couches, but they're usually full, and there's no blinky lights to watch). Stuff seems to happen, there. From what I've seen, the pace of Big 3 Six doesn't appeal, and the sound effects irritate me somewhat more quickly than some others.

Using slot freeplay on all the Interblock machines seems to be disabled at my local place, so it's doubtful that I'll be spending much time playing them.


Enjoy!
May the cards fall in your favor.
etr102
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August 22nd, 2014 at 1:10:50 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

I would stay away from the bell and the single bar, personally. The side bet actually doesn't seem too bad.

Even the bell and single bar bets don't seem particularly worse than the best bet available in "normal" Big Six.

Personally, when I want to just chill out and watch dancing lights for a while, I go down to the racebook and watch the dog & pony show (in my local joint, they happen to be the most comfortable chairs available - there are some slightly more comfortable couches, but they're usually full, and there's no blinky lights to watch). Stuff seems to happen, there. From what I've seen, the pace of Big 3 Six doesn't appeal, and the sound effects irritate me somewhat more quickly than some others.

Using slot freeplay on all the Interblock machines seems to be disabled at my local place, so it's doubtful that I'll be spending much time playing them.

Enjoy!



Caesars Windsor gives 1 TR credit per $20 coin in on these Big Three-6 games. This is roughly the same as what they offer on their 8/6 JoB VP. Not very good, but much better than the 1 TR per $80 coin in that the Interblock Craps/Sic Bo game they used to have.

I played for roughly an hour off of $20 the one time I played. I think I cashed out with around $30 or $40. It's fun mindless entertainment I guess.
Dieter
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August 22nd, 2014 at 7:43:07 PM permalink
Quote: etr102

Caesars Windsor gives 1 TR credit per $20 coin in on these Big Three-6 games. This is roughly the same as what they offer on their 8/6 JoB VP. Not very good, but much better than the 1 TR per $80 coin in that the Interblock Craps/Sic Bo game they used to have.

I played for roughly an hour off of $20 the one time I played. I think I cashed out with around $30 or $40. It's fun mindless entertainment I guess.



I'm sure my local place earns slot points for coin in on these machines, too.

I'm just also sure that they don't allow redemption of free slot play on these machines. It must be too easy to place a cancellation bet.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Wizard
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August 15th, 2016 at 5:38:12 PM permalink
I just saw this game at the MGM. I took pictures of it, to get the symbol distribution. After piecing together the wheel and doing the math I agree with Miplet's figures. It is important to note that while this is a fully electronic game, the pays are on a "to one" basis, including the three-wheel slot bet.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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August 15th, 2016 at 6:44:07 PM permalink
Just wrote up a page on 3 Big Six. Please click the link to have a look.

As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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