Money$uit 31

Hey all, My company just released the online demo of our new table game Money$uit 31. The game is an inovative new card game that deviates from your typical poker based table game; Money$uit 31 based on the popular card game Scat(31). We have been in talks with several different casinos in several jurisdictions about conducting our field trial, which should be taking place within the year (depending on which jurisdiction we go live in) The Demo website is www.moneysuit31.com. I would love to hear what you all have to say!

Do you hae a stratagy for this game, or do I need to analyze it myself?

I tried the demo, and I have to say this is one of the most innovative and fun casino table games I have ever come across. I really hope you make it - I think your game has a lot of potential. I hope I can give a try in a real casino some time soon.

What's the house edge on the game (I know that's a loaded question because, for this game, the house edge is influenced by player strategy and bet amount)? Is it dealt from a shoe of multiple decks, or a single deck? What percentage of the jackpot side bet feeds the progressive jackpot?

I like the family pot idea - it adds competition and it offers free odds. The game is simple to learn, but also deep, in terms of strategy. Very cool stuff!

I can see a player folding a lot if there was no family pot, but if you bet the table minimum you should be playing a lot more to try and improve your hand and thus win the family pot. While there is a strategy to minimize the house edge against the 'play' and 'ante' tables, there may not be a total optimal player strategy, as it would depend on what strategy the other players are playing...
curious

Thank you for the kind words. Im hoping that very soon you will have the oppertunity to play live.

The optimal strategy as stated by gaming labs international is folding all hands other than a 16 or higher, an A and ten value card of opposing suits, a pair of eights or better and an already winning hand. That being said, personaly knowing this information, I dont even stick to this strategy. Also, the discard strategy is much more complicated, yet that is the most fun and exciting portion of the game!

The game is dealt with a single deck, which is shuffled every hand.

Money$uit 31 has a corresponding house edge of %6.85. Some say that this is a little high, but when taking the family pot(free odds) and the possible high payouts for a three card game into consideration the high house edge isnt as significant as it appears to be. Also, the pay stucture of the play wager is similar to that of the pair plus side bet in three card poker, whcih has a coressponding house edge of %7.

Again thank you for the kind words.

Good game mrsuit31. Reminds me a lot of "Flop Poker". I would definately consider the game in the Casino I work if you ever got licensed in Arizona. Good luck to you!

Well that is something I would consider doing. I am in the process of getting my letter of intent (LOI) in a few different jurisdictions to launch our field trials. If you could arange something I would'nt mind flying out and meeting with your people to see if we cant get something set up out there also.

I tried the demo, the family pot idea is a good one. The house edge on the base bet is too high for my taste though.. Otherwise it seems like fun.

You need to introduce an order to player actions. Players need to play in order, like in a blackjack tournament. Preferably, this would rotate every hand.
Why? If I have a borderline hand and lots of people are folding, I will play to try and improve my hand and go for family pot. Otherwise, if lots of people are playing, I'll fold a borderline hand

This is something that we have contimplated before, you arent the first person to mention this. Although the ultimate conclusion was that since players typically will play to optimize their strategy versus the house this wasnt something that needed to be addressed. Although we could incorporate a display similar to that on a pai gow poker table that shows the position that has to act first each hand.

I really think order can be very important.... Assume the other players are only playing basic strategy, optimizing their performance against the house. If everyone else at a full table folds (implying they all have 15 or less), I'd play almost ANY hand, hoping to draw a 10 or A and likely win the family pot. My odds of drawing that 10 or A of one of the 2 suits I have is 10/49 (could be higher, since when 5 people fold, their hands are likely full of low cards). I am risking $5 (the play bet) to win $30 in the family pot, plus the return from getting lucky and actually winning my ante & play bets.

On a related note, in the demo, are the 5 players just dealt a 3 card hand, or are they playing basic strategy?

In the demo the other five players are dealt 3 cards only, so their hand are all natural.

I understand what you are saying in regards to the family pot. Once we get confirmation that we will be going live we will approach this topic and determine what is the best way to handle this in that specific jurisdiction.

This is an interesting game, but I would suggest one tweak.
One of the greatest draws in Texas Hold'em is the fact that you can see what would have happened. Even if you folded your hand, you see the cards play out, and you get an idea if you would have won the hand, had you stuck it out. Black jack also has this element to a certain extent. You may decide to stay, but you know the next card that gets played would have been your card, so you can usually see if you made a good decision or not.

I would like to see something like that put into play for this game. Perhaps alter the betting structure a bit.

ANTE---$5
BET----$table min-max
PLAY---$match BET amount

Player makes the $5 ANTE, and also makes their BET amount. Player gets dealt the 3 cards. If you want to go for the max pay table, you put down the PLAY bet. (Same game as now)
If you don't put down a play bet, you still will get to discard and get an additional card. However, you automatically lose your BET amount. If you end up with a hand that is greater than 18, you win the ANTE and an amount equal to the ANTE, regardless of what your end total is. The Family pot is now decided amongst all hands.

Since everyone will get to draw a card whether they bet the PLAY or not, the order of player play becomes less important and no special rotation is needed.
Also, every player now gets to see their draw card, and they will know right away if they made a good play. Did they not bet the PLAY, thus forfeiting their BET as well, and they just drew the card to make 28? DANG, they blew a chance to make money.

I appreciate the feedback Raleighcraps.

I will take these ideas into consideration. The reason why in my game I dont allow a player who folds to draw is because I believe that if one player at the table makes an extra bet while another doesnt, I think that the player making the additinal bet should have a better chance to winning the family pot. For example, in flop poker all players regardless if they place their play wager or not, have the same ability to win the family pot; where I think that folding hands should have a disadvantage.

In addition I have several other variations of Money$uit that are patent pending that will not involve these same concerns that you have mentioned. These incorporate comunity cards insead of a draw card and several other gameplay changes that appeal to a vide veriety of gamers.

Also, in regards to not seeing the draw card you would have recieved, after the completion of the hand the player that folded can ask the player next to him/her which card was drawn and see what would have been given to them.

I played the game for a while these past few days and it was generally fun.

One thing that struck me was how little the moneysuit actually mattered. It seems like people rarely will get 31, let alone 31 of the moneysuit. After a while I stopped paying attention to what the moneysuit was for a given hand. Given the games' name I would've thought it played a role more often. I envisioned something like if you make 18 or more and all three cards are the moneysuit you get some sort of bonus (even a small one).

Also, I agree with the idea that HA is too high.

My two cents

Roghaltz

I appreciate the feedback.

I understand what you are saying about the fact that the moneysuit doesn't play a role very often, yet when it does the bonuses are very significant. Also, the moneysuit creates a large amount of excitement in many draw situations. For example, when a player is sitting with two ten value cards of the moneysuit or the ace and a ten value card of the moneysuit, the fact that the next card dealt can deliver a payout ranging from 25-120 to 1 is very exciting! The moneysuit also breaks ties when dealing with the family pot, which does happen pretty often.

I played the game for a little bit. and I have to say Id shy away from this game in a casino because the house advantage seems incredably high. I can go play 3 card poker and get a flush or a straight or even a straight flush and get paid decently. this game. even if I got all three cards the same suit I could have 17 points or less- and not get squat for it. I think I should get something at least for making all three cards flush even if it was between 9 and 17. I feel cheated if I manage to get lucky enough to have a flush be it natural or on the draw and still be a loosing hand. or whats worse to get three suited cards and have a 17 or less and have ot give one up for another card which compleatly goes against the basis of the game.

Notes:
1) Make the moneysuit count more say it pays additional on 24+

2) A payment somewhere for a three card flush even if it dont hit the 18+ points for a reguler payout- this can be small and if you really feel generous add the three-card straight flush in there with the three of a kind.

3) to really help the player out against a game that seems to be very hefty edge either 1) lower the 18+ needed to 17 or even 16. OR allow the player a choice of the play bet being same as or TWICE the ante bet. Either one of these options combined with the first two would make me really consider playing the game. And I dont imagine it would hurt the house edge too much and would put it on par with the good games out there.

thank you for taking the time to comment Malaru.

The odds that are in play in the demo arent definitly goin to be the odds in play when we go live. the odds can easily be altered to decrease the house edge. Weather it be increasing the payouts for certain hands and or incorporating an additional bonus for the moneysuit hands, as you stated. This is something that my company and the resort that will be housing the game will approach when the time comes.

As far as your comment "I can go play 3 card poker and get a flush or a straight or even a straight flush and get paid decently", considering that moneysuit 31 is a three card game with a draw card option and has higher payouts than three card poker is something that should at least acknowledged.

As far as the other comments that you made in regards to posiibility of flushes and even strait flushes paying out. The original game 31 that moneysuit is based off of, doesnt involve these poker hands into the game. One thing i wanted to stick to was the original rules of 31, without trying to change it to much. This was because I wanted all of the players out there that already know and love 31 to have the chance to play the game they love, in casino form, without butchering the game.

Thank you again for the feedback. I appreciate you taking the time to play the demo!

I feel compelled to offer the following comment as well.
I have played the game for another hour, and even though I realize this is not the 'correct' way to play the game, I took the draw EVERY time. I won less than a dozen times, going through about $3,000 at a $25 bet. And out of those wins, the majority came on 2 initial cards over 18. I think I only hit one or two draws for a winner. I also had the misfortune of drawing the card to my suited card(s) a few times, and not have an 18+ total.

In all honesty, I would never play this game in the casino. It is fun, but the payoff rate is way too little and doesn't come often enough. If I was playing the game correctly, I would spend most of my time folding my bet, with no chance at a win. I'm not asking you to defend your pay table or the game, I'm just letting you know I would not play the game as it is now. Keep your 6% HA, but give me more wins at lesser payouts. I think the penny slots are proof that many payouts, even ones that are less than the amount wagered, make the player 'feel' like they are winning.

I may have just had a bad run of cards, and I will likely give the game a few more tries just to see if that is the case, but as it stands now, I would pass on the game. Good luck with the game. I hope your demos and trials give you enough insight to make the game a success.

Ok, I think I might take the time to analyze the game to get more detail, like how often each total occurs, how often you "play" the hand ect. I played the demo for a little while a long time and did get a Money$uit mini royal.

I understand your comments raleighcraps and they are appreciated, regardless if they are possitive or negative. My reason for posting on this site was to gain insight from people who are well versed in the industry.

If you would be willing, i would appreciate you taking a few more chances with the demo and seeing if your luck changes, i would be interested in the results. As i stated in a prior post the odds can be changed based on the overall feedback from the trials and from people like yourself.

Just to confirm what you had said "I would spend most of my time folding my bet" The fold% as stated by GLI is around %60. And again we may play with the odds to increase the number of payouts, and lower this fold percentage.

Please keep me posted with your comments good, bad and ugly, because these comments will help me tailor the game to make it enjoyable for all those who play.

To all those who have given me your time by trying out the demo and posting your feedback, THANK YOU. Keep them coming and soon enough you will get to try out the final product live!

okay, I just played another 50 hands. It was definitely a better session than before, card wise. For the record I ended +300.
I was betting $5 and $25 Ante. Now I realize that is probably a bad bet. If I was only going to risk $5 more to try and win the $30 family pot, there are some totals where it might make sense to draw a card to win the $30 family pot. However, by Anteing $25, i have to put another $25 at risk, to possibly win the $30 family pot. That is not worth risking, so I would say betting $25 is not a smart bet. Likewise, if there are only 2 people playing, the family pot is not worth risking the extra bet for, so again I would need to fold more often.

I only Played the Draw on hands of 14 or better.
Of the 50 hands, I had 10 winners on the deal, with 2 of them improving with the draw card.
I drew to 13 hands with 14 to 17, and 2 of those became a winner, so I had 11 losers that I paid to play.
I folded 27 hands for totals less than 14.

I had no total greater than 29, but one of the computer players did get the royal mini.

Now a question for the math gurus:

I have a point total of 14 in my 3 cards (assume 10-4)
That means 49 cards are left, of which 11 are in my suit. However, the 2 and 3 don't help, so I have a 9/49 chance of drawing a card that will help.
24-27 total pays 2 to 1 on the Play bet, or 3/2 on my total bet ($75 for my $50 wagered). I have 4/49 chances (J,Q,K,A) to get paid 3:2, if I am willing to put $25 more at risk.
I have 5/49 chances (5,6,7,8,9) to get paid 1:1, if I put $25 more at risk.

How do I calculate the percentage on this play, knowing I have to put up an additional $25 for the chance to draw another card? It seems to me that I am putting way more at risk than I would ever win back, since 40 of 49 times I will lose an additional $25.

Here is my pathetic attempt:
If I fold the 14 49 times, I lose $25x49 = $1225
If I add the extra $25, 40 times I will lose ($25+$25)x40 = $2,000 (I did that one in my head :-)
five times I will win even money ($25+$25)x5 = $250
four time I will win 3:2 ($25+$25)x4x3/2 = $300
So, -$2000+$250+$300 = -$1450
Therefore, by playing 14,15, or 16 I stand to lose (1450-1225) $225 more than if I just folded all hands.

Quote: miplet

Ok, I think I might take the time to analyze the game to get more detail, like how often each total occurs, how often you "play" the hand ect. I played the demo for a little while a long time and did get a Money$uit mini royal.

Was the Money$uit Mini royal Natural or drawn? i'm curious

Quote: RaleighCraps

Now a question for the math gurus:

I have a point total of 14 in my 3 cards (assume 10-4)
That means 49 cards are left, of which 11 are in my suit. However, the 2 and 3 don't help, so I have a 9/49 chance of drawing a card that will help.
24-27 total pays 2 to 1 on the Play bet, or 3/2 on my total bet ($75 for my $50 wagered). I have 4/49 chances (J,Q,K,A) to get paid 3:2, if I am willing to put $25 more at risk.
I have 5/49 chances (5,6,7,8,9) to get paid 1:1, if I put $25 more at risk.

How do I calculate the percentage on this play, knowing I have to put up an additional $25 for the chance to draw another card? It seems to me that I am putting way more at risk than I would ever win back, since 40 of 49 times I will lose an additional $25.

Here is my pathetic attempt:
If I fold the 14 49 times, I lose $25x49 = $1225
If I add the extra $25, 40 times I will lose ($25+$25)x40 = $2,000 (I did that one in my head :-)
five times I will win even money ($25+$25)x5 = $250

Looks good to me. The basic strategy posted earlier in this thread is correct. I calculated them by hand. I still haven't writted my analysis program yet.

Quote: mrsuit31

Was the Money$uit Mini royal Natural or drawn? i'm curious

On the draw. Wasn't lucky enough to hit the 1 in 22,100 natural M$ mini royal.
The progresive has a return of 0.502262 with a jackpot of $5000. It goes up 0.0678733 per $1000 added with a break even jackpot of $12,333.33
(Edited to correct a typo and to change the seed amount. The house edge stated below is most likely the overall house advantge based on average jackpot size.)

Quote: miplet

On the draw. Wasn't lucky enough to hit the 1 in 22,100 natural M$ mini royal.
The progresive has a return of .23 with a jackpot of $1000. It goes up .068 per $1000 added with a break even jackpot of $13,333.33

As stated by GLI The Progressive wager has a HA of %21.086 and the break even jackpot in $12,333.33

The progressive seed amount is $5000 with %40 of each dollar feeding the jackpot amount.

Mr. Wizard or JB, do either of you have an opinion of my game?

Quote: mrsuit31

Money$uit 31 has a corresponding house edge of %6.85.

I get a house edge of 9.56% (103598/1082900) per ante bet. I get an element of risk of 6.85% (103598/1511748) per total bet. A player will fold 60.4% (13348/22100) of the time. If this matches what you have I can mess with the paytable to see changes in the house edge.

Quote: miplet

I get a house edge of 9.56% (103598/1082900) per ante bet. I get an element of risk of 6.85% (103598/1511748) per total bet. A player will fold 60.4% (13348/22100) of the time. If this matches what you have I can mess with the paytable to see changes in the house edge.

The numbers that GLI calculated were slightly different. If you want see how much the HA changes by changing the payout for 24-27 from to 2to1 to 3to1. also, another posibble table would be keeping the original payouts change the first payout from 18to23 to 17to23 paying 1to1

24-27 from to 2to1 to 3to1: House Edge: 0.064063163727 Element of Risk: 0.0445330875178 Fold: 0.561447963801
18to23 to 17to23 paying 1to1: House Edge: -0.0911792409271 Element of Risk: -0.0554380220229 Fold: 0.355294117647
(move the decimal 2 places for %) Player has an advantage if you add 17 as the minimum.

The family pot is not meaningful to players who are betting more than the minimum. The risk of a losing "Play" draw, does not justify sticking around for the family pot.

I did get a hand in the demo which was confusing,

After the draw, I had a two card, non moneysuit total of 20, with my third card being the Ace in the moneysuit. Amongst the computer hands was a two card, non moneysuit total of 20, with the third card not in the moneysuit. As 20 was the highest total, the computer split the family pot between our hands. However, I thought the hand with the moneysuit was supposed to take the familypot in the case of ties? Is the tie-breaker only active if the moneysuit cards are part of the scoring total?

Yes, the money$uit only comes into play when it is a active in the point total.

Miplet, what if you also increase the payout on 28 and 29 to 6to1 on top of the other change.

Quote: mrsuit31

Yes, the money$uit only comes into play when it is a active in the point total.

Miplet, what if you also increase the payout on 28 and 29 to 6to1 on top of the other change.

24-27 3to1 and 28 ,29 6to1
House Edge: 0.0507249053468 Element of Risk: 0.0352610848063 Fold: 0.561447963801
Ok my analyzer is online, so you can mess the paytable all you want.
http://miplet.net/ms.php
It defaults to the paytable on your website. It combines the play and ante pays in one. M$ bonus is how much more (or less if you like) that the Money Suit will pay. It takes about 16 seconds to analyze. If you have any questions, just ask.

Miplet, thank you for posting that for me. I really appreciate it!

Quote: Zcore13

Good game mrsuit31. Reminds me a lot of "Flop Poker". I would definately consider the game in the Casino I work if you ever got licensed in Arizona. Good luck to you!

Is there anyway we can exchange contact info, so we can discuss this in a little more detail?

Miplet,

keeping the same paytable what would the HA be by including a M$ 17 paying 1to1? ( i wasn't sure how to do that in the program you had posted)

Can i just leave the 17 paying -2 and making the M$ bonus paying 4 or will that not give me an accurate HA?



(is that spreadsheet still at that link address? i have had trouble accessing it lately)

Quote: mrsuit31

Miplet,

keeping the same paytable what would the HA be by including a M$ 17 paying 1to1? ( i wasn't sure how to do that in the program you had posted)

Can i just leave the 17 paying -2 and making the M$ bonus paying 4 or will that not give me an accurate HA?



(is that spreadsheet still at that link address? i have had trouble accessing it lately)

Yep change M$ bonus 17 to 4.
House Edge: 0.0513519253855 Element of Risk: 0.0350790538767 Fold: 0.536108597285
It's still there.
(Note to self: When you get a new debit card, be sure to update the experation date with your webhost, or you may find your account suspended.)

Quote: miplet

Yep change M$ bonus 17 to 4.
House Edge: 0.0513519253855 Element of Risk: 0.0350790538767 Fold: 0.536108597285
It's still there.
(Note to self: When you get a new debit card, be sure to update the experation date with your webhost, or you may find your account suspended.)

Thanks for the info.

funny note to self!

Question for you math guys.

As previously stated, the optimal strategy for Money$uit 31 is folding all hands other than a 16 or higher, and A and ten value cards of opposing suits, a pair of 8s or higher and an already wining hand.

Given that players are using optimal strategy while playing, what is the probability/percentage that all six players sitting at a full table will be dealt a "folding hand"?