Pai Gow Poker Dispute
Quote: DeucekiesHow did that chagrin the table? Would they have put two of the aces up?
Yes. My play loses to 7's through K's in low hand, but beats 3of a kinds, straights, and flushes, as well as higher two pairs kept together in the high hand.
Quote: SOOPOOYes. My play loses to 7's through K's in low hand, but beats 3of a kinds, straights, and flushes, as well as higher two pairs kept together in the high hand.
I think someone here did the math on this situation not too long ago. They determined your play is best.
You have a top straight or a flush with a pair of tens or better on top, you're really good.
(Edit: Oops - I skip a page...)
2277A + AA = 0.719
This based on WoO Dealer prob's from Appendix. NOTE: Trump AC way.
A correction here on the OP hand setting as Straight + 10-10 is 0.919.
Calculators are sensitive to key-entry sequence, I got it wrong (0.877) originally.
The Full House way stands as 0.875
Quote: 98ClubsAAA22 + 77 = 0.831 BEST
2277A + AA = 0.719
This based on WoO Dealer prob's from Appendix. NOTE: Trump AC way.
A correction here on the OP hand setting as Straight + 10-10 is 0.919.
Calculators are sensitive to key-entry sequence, I got it wrong (0.877) originally.
The Full House way stands as 0.875
So how do I interpret .875 or .919? Does this mean I expect to win .875 bets every time I set the hand this way?
Quote: bigfoot66So how do I interpret .875 or .919? Does this mean I expect to win .875 bets every time I set the hand this way?
I believe that your expected value per $1 bet is to win $0.875. Someone smarter than me has to say whether the commission is factored in.
Quote: SOOPOOI believe that your expected value per $1 bet is to win $0.875. Someone smarter than me has to say whether the commission is factored in.
87.50% chance of winning your bet and collecting 95% of your bet,
Bet 10 bucks, get the full boat above, 87.5% chance of collecting 9 dollars and 75 cents.
Quote: terapined87.50% chance of winning your bet and collecting 95% of your bet,
Bet 10 bucks, get the full boat above, 87.5% chance of collecting 9 dollars and 75 cents.
I am not a Pai Gow poker player. Is this really the way math works in that game?
95% * $10 = $9.75 ?????
Quote: DocI am not a Pai Gow poker player. Is this really the way math works in that game?
95% * $10 = $9.75 ?????
My mistake, lol, win 9.50, and I do play Pai Gow. :-)
I should edit that post but, naw, you caught me. If I edited, your post wouldn't make sense.
Very embarrassing with all math heads here.
Quote: WizardHeather, to give you some context, PaiGowDan is known for some rather extreme points of view sometimes. Most famously, he has argued tenaciously that card counting is cheating. Dan is a good friend, but I think we would also welcome a, shall we say, second voice for the dealer point of view around here.
Let's not forget the other dealers amongst us...Croupier (recently returned to regular posting), NicksGamingStuff (absent for a while), hwccdealer...I feel like I'm missing at least one more.
Quote: AcesAndEightsLet's not forget the other dealers amongst us...Croupier (recently returned to regular posting), NicksGamingStuff (absent for a while), hwccdealer...I feel like I'm missing at least one more.
Ontario dealer, who we haven't heard from for a bit either.
Quote: AcesAndEightsLet's not forget the other dealers amongst us...Croupier (recently returned to regular posting), NicksGamingStuff (absent for a while), hwccdealer...I feel like I'm missing at least one more.
Let's just say this - every casino has different rules for just about any game. Pai Gow would be no different. It's on the casinos to make money, not on the game designers to force them to.
I don't consider card counting to be cheating. It's legal, it's all in your head, and it's on the casino to stop people.
Quote: AcesAndEightsLet's not forget the other dealers amongst us...Croupier (recently returned to regular posting), NicksGamingStuff (absent for a while), hwccdealer...I feel like I'm missing at least one more.
I deal as well.
Quote: bigfoot66So how do I interpret .875 or .919? Does this mean I expect to win .875 bets every time I set the hand this way?
This final number is the strength of the hand. It takes into account the 95% pay.
0.95*5C*2C - ((1-5C)*(1-2C)) This is the formula for the Player hand.
Where 5C is the 5-card hand (hi or "in back")
and 2C is the 2-card hand (low or "in front")
This is all written and charted here.
Quote: hwccdealerLet's just say this - every casino has different rules for just about any game. Pai Gow would be no different. It's on the casinos to make money, not on the game designers to force them to.
Bullspit.
a) If 3:2 was a codified gaming requirement, you wouldn't have 6:5 poking you in the eye on shoe games today. "Official Rule Slop" works for the gambling hall and casino operator. Know this now.
b) Since "Rule Leeway" works for the casino's advantage, you nail them down by denying them wiggle-room and slop to play with.
c) As for PGP, one standard and mathematical based house way should be the standard; floormen could otherwise reject a payout or result based on a claimed dealer's "hand mis-set." This is why all crappy house ways say: final approval is determined by floor supervision [and not by gaming]. [Because Rule Slop gives it to the HOUSE.] Codified House ways would work for you, the gambler, as it would force casinos to follow a regulated rule, instead of some nasty floorman's call on you if a dispute.
d) Game designers are getting tighter, certainly when they sign agreements with distributors who distribute the game, and insist or insert tighter parameters on a game, as we send it to math labs and field trials with our money and reputation on the line.
Quote: hw...I don't consider card counting to be cheating. It's legal, it's all in your head, and it's on the casino to stop people.
Until you then act on it - and under surveillance's eye. Then it is no longer "in your head," - but out there naked on the table and busted. YOU took action that followed a mathematically provable and disallowed count, and your hands and the money are on surveillance tape clearly following it.
Not a question of "legal." It's a question of what casinos can legally do to counteract. This includes flat-betting or backing off anyone who doesn't play by casino's house rules. I think counting is unacceptable, as it is both too effective and parasitic, and not "gambling." I pay my house edge "pay for play" participation fee without issue, and take it from there....
Quote: PaigowdanUntil you then act on it - and under surveillance's eye. Then it is no longer "in your head," - but out there naked on the table and busted. YOU took action that followed a mathematically provable count, and your hands and the money are on surveillance tape.
lol... good luck with that.
I have sat and counted hundreds of times in the past few years. I have never once been backed off, flat bet, or even faced with anything that could be termed heat.
I also know people who have been backed off just for winning (they were not playing with an edge). The casino is generally clueless when it comes to stuff like this.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicelol... good luck with that.
Thanks. Don't need luck, just need to be on the right side/pit side of the table. You'll need real luck to prevent your days from also being counted. You seem to have it, or have deep skills.
Quote: AxI have sat and counted hundreds of times in the past few years. I have never once been backed off, flat bet, or even faced with anything that could be termed heat.
Very Fine, good for you. Many people get away with murdah.
Quote: AxI also know people who have been backed off just for winning (they were not playing with an edge). The casino is generally clueless when it comes to stuff like this.
Of course. Idiots abound in the pit, - you know that! (I sure as hell do....left for a gaming office job, but still kept my NV dealer's license.) Now, your luck is solely based on their pit incompetence, and you DO know that.
AND you are thankful and collecting - while the collecting is good. Once on the surveillance sheets, it's ovah.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe bottom line is that, unless I'm playing something small stakes for fun, I'm going to be playing with an edge. Getting backed off isn't really that much of a threat. If I couldn't get an edge I'd back myself off. I may as well play until I get caught, then re-evaluate.
Going into a surveillance reporting network is the much bigger threat. You're done. That's different. You can get politely backed off with a delightful steak house comp, and everyone so happy and cherry, but everyone in the industry knows who you are and what you're about. "Go to dice." Once you've got told "you're done for the night," it might be forever. You have a face. Think about that.
The new back-rooming. You Do Not Have A Career No Mo'. [Not that this was EVER a bona fide professional career the way normal civilians have. EVERY scrum counter eventually ends of out of business or working FOR the casino operators - not matter how good. Ask Mike and Eliot.] Re-Evaluate. The clock ticks....
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhich casino does Grosjean work for?
Does it matter?
Quote: PaigowdanDoes it matter?
It does matter. Your statement was that they all end up working for the other side eventually. I don't think that's true.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-casino. I'd gladly work for one if they paid me enough. I'd probably even take a slight pay cut to work for one.
Quote: PaigowdanBullspit.
a) If 3:2 was a codified gaming requirement, you wouldn't have 6:5 poking you in the eye on shoe games today. "Official Rule Slop" works for the gambling hall and casino operator. Know this now.
Who said it didn't? No one walks into a casino and tells them, "I'll play by these rules and only these rules. Deal me in." The best you will get out of that is to be told where the rules are close enough to that. Or you'll get a sarcastic remark.
If you want to beat the casino, you have to look for the cracks. Card counting is one. Progressive jackpots above the break-even level is another. If the casinos don't like it, they can back you off. And if you don't like it, you can stop playing. Just like any other business.
Quote: Paigowdanb) Since "Rule Leeway" works for the casino's advantage, you nail them down by denying them wiggle-room and slop to play with.
It's not just casinos that are sticking it to people. Ice cream doesn't come in half-gallons anymore. Neither does orange juice. And damn near everything costs more. Casinos are just doing what everyone else does. If people want to start sticking it to casinos and demanding the 3-2 games and other low HA games, they can insist on playing only the good games and let the bad ones go dead.
Quote: Paigowdanc) As for PGP, one standard and mathematical based house way should be the standard; floormen could otherwise reject a payout or result based on a claimed dealer's "hand mis-set." This is why all crappy house ways say: final approval is determined by floor supervision [and not by gaming]. [Because Rule Slop gives it to the HOUSE.] Codified House ways would work for you, the gambler, as it would force casinos to follow a regulated rule, instead of some nasty floorman's call on you if a dispute.
If I recall correctly, the big issue with Pai Gow was that the inventor of the original game did not get the game patented due to some bad advice. If a game is patented, a "house way" or standardized rules can be insisted on (to an extent, anyway; Three Card Poker still has a few pinheads like Penn National, a.k.a. my employer, who use crappy rules, and it's no older than Justin Bieber.) I understand you invented EZ Pai Gow. Is it patented? Are you able to do anything about the House Way? Or are the casinos too stuck in their ways to play along with one?
Of course, I've been in law school for three years, and it seems that the rules for the Pai Gow House Way read like a slightly more interesting version of a Restatement.
Quote: Paigowdand) Game designers are getting tighter, certainly when they sign agreements with distributors who distribute the game, and insist or insert tighter parameters on a game, as we send it to math labs and field trials with our money and reputation on the line.
I don't blame them. Pai Gow probably had a lot to do with that.
Also, am I the only one who saw where you wrote "math labs" and thought you were sending your game to a meth lab? Wow, still getting used to these contact lenses.
Quote: PaigowdanUntil you then act on it - and under surveillance's eye. Then it is no longer "in your head," - but out there naked on the table and busted. YOU took action that followed a mathematically provable and disallowed count, and your hands and the money are on surveillance tape clearly following it.
What do you want people to do? Stop playing if the count is too good? Yes, it's mathematically provable, and surveillance agents are usually trained in rudimentary card-counting. (At least the ones at my place are.) But they are not affecting the game in any way. They are not influencing the count, just tracking it and playing accordingly. They aren't even writing down totals the way some people write down totals in baccarat or spins in roulette. I've even seen it in dice.
If you are doing something like counting cards, you are at the mercy of the casinos. Casinos are there to make money. But if you count, you win, and the casinos don't stop you because they're more worried about lawbreakers and people who throw chips at the boxperson? Then more power to you.
Quote: PaigowdanNot a question of "legal." It's a question of what casinos can legally do to counteract. This includes flat-betting or backing off anyone who doesn't play by casino's house rules. I think counting is unacceptable, as it is both too effective and parasitic, and not "gambling." I pay my house edge "pay for play" participation fee without issue, and take it from there....
Casinos can do a lot to stop people. You know what they can't do? Prosecute them. They can tell them they're not welcome there anymore. They can tell other people. And soon enough, casinos are going to be nothing more than money-sucks for ploppies - and will get a reputation as such. AP won't exist. And the illusion of "You can actually win!" will be gone. And that's a huge selling point in casinos. Casinos will have the same reputation as malt liquor.
And it will be the house's own damn fault.
Quote: hwccdealerQuote: Paigowdanc) As for PGP, one standard and mathematical based house way should be the standard; floormen could otherwise reject a payout or result based on a claimed dealer's "hand mis-set." This is why all crappy house ways say: final approval is determined by floor supervision [and not by gaming]. [Because Rule Slop gives it to the HOUSE.] Codified House ways would work for you, the gambler, as it would force casinos to follow a regulated rule, instead of some nasty floorman's call on you if a dispute.
If I recall correctly, the big issue with Pai Gow was that the inventor of the original game did not get the game patented due to some bad advice. If a game is patented, a "house way" or standardized rules can be insisted on (to an extent, anyway; Three Card Poker still has a few pinheads like Penn National, a.k.a. my employer, who use crappy rules, and it's no older than Justin Bieber.)
The big problem with PGP is that it is approved without House Way specifications, so that the game may be played with any house way. This is not a patent issue, this is an approval issue, as to how the game was approved for play.
Quote: hwccdealerI understand you invented EZ Pai Gow. Is it patented?
Yes.
Quote: hwccdealerAre you able to do anything about the House Way?
No. We got it approved without house way stipulations, so that casinos could simply drop it in using their existing house way. Less work, more sales.
Quote: hcwwdealerOr are the casinos too stuck in their ways to play along with one?
Yes, casinos are too stuck in their ways on countless issues. You work as a dealer, you know this. ;)
Quote: PaigowdanThe big problem with PGP is that it is approved without House Way specifications, so that the game may be played with any house way. This is not a patent issue, this is an approval issue, as to how the game was approved for play.
So...who exactly does the approving? Individual casino owners? And if that's the case, how does one stop the casinos from tweaking the rules? Other than telling them, "take it or leave it," which is, as you mentioned, an impediment to sales? Even if the cat's not already out of the bag like with Pai Gow, what's to stop a casino from deciding with a game like, say, Mississippi Stud from deciding that two pair pays 3-2 instead of 2-1 of that the Ante bet pushes unless you have a straight or better? They tweak the hell out of blackjack already, and I'm floored that casinos haven't introduced a 000 roulette wheel or something.
Quote: PaigowdanYes, casinos are too stuck in their ways on countless issues. You work as a dealer, you know this. ;)
As someone who's been penalized for leaving work early - with a back injury - I fully understand this. Casinos, of course, need someone to force their hands - as do all other businesses.
Quote: hwccdealerI'm floored that casinos haven't introduced a 000 roulette wheel or something.
I've seen one.
A long time ago (I think) on a trip to AC, but it could have been one of my early trips to Vegas.
I didn't play; even then I was smart enough to understand how mathematically stupid it was.
Quote: Scooter77I've seen one.
A long time ago (I think) on a trip to AC, but it could have been one of my early trips to Vegas.
I didn't play; even then I was smart enough to understand how mathematically stupid it was.
The internet didn't find it. It must be pretty rare.
I do know that, when roulette was first introduced in Hoyle, there was only 28 spots, and a 0, 00, and American Eagle space designed just as the house advantage. If that paid 27-1 on a straight-up number, the house edge would be double digits.
