EZ Pai Gow v. Commission Free Pai Gow
Quote: RaleighCrapsQuote: PaigowdanYes. And it is because the casino operator has to offer games that cover expenses, as sadly, the operator has to remain in business to offer the games to us.
In terms of an EDUCATED Pai Gow player - or any other EDUCATED game gambler, the EDUCATED person does not gamble. Does NOT spend time in a casino. At all. Period, end of story.
You're equating here partaking in recreational gambling as being un-EDUCATED. If so, it is un-educated to attend movies, restaurants, or shows, as they are also recreations that also cost money (-EV), and have no chance of a return.
As far as I know, casinos have been making money pretty much hand over fist for the past 2 decades.
In general, yes. As are Hollywood movie studios, fancy in-demand restaurants, and rock group concerts. there is truly a sentiment that is A-Okay for film companies and restaurants to be profitable, but it is some nerve if casino operators - also an entertainment venue - are profitable.
Quote: RaleighCrapsDuring that time, they have built extremely fancy palaces, all while offering 3:2 BJ and banking on Pai Gow Poker. So to claim that taking away player banking is necessary for the casino to stay in business is not much of a debate point, and in fact, really weakens the rest of your points.
No. Internal game reviews showed that 3:2 single-deck and PGP banking were less profitable/unprofitable than other floor games, so 6:5 single deck and banking-free PGP got them in line for the per sq. ft. requirements to be on the floor. Washington state card rooms of little overhead can offer loss leaders; I can't expect a strip property to do so, and I gamble off-strip. I mean, what are we going to say? "You took away 3:2 single deck and PGP banking, and we're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it any longer!" They'd say, "if you worked in our offices and saw the numbers and our bond debts, you'd do the same thing. play where you want." Movie theaters overcharge, Restaurants overcharge, everyone overcharges, but one can not really argue that if business doesn't drop off.
Quote: RaleighCrapsWhen you attend movies, shows, and restaurants, you are getting something in return for your money. The movie may suck, the steak is overdone, and the show was lip synched, but you got something for your money. I'm not sure how you can claim any of these are -EV or, for that matter, +EV situations.
For the movies, one can say you leave with no tangible except for experience. Actually, the same can be said for the restaurant, as you can eat in your home. Same with the casino: you get to play, so you get "action" or "juice." And as forthe movies or shows or restaurants, you have NO chance to win back your "action cost."
\Quote: RaleighCrapsIt doesn't matter if the player is educated or un-educated. The loss of player banking costs them some money. The fact that the un-educated are too dumb to realize they are losing a chance at money is irrelevant.
Yes, it costs players money to play 6:5 BJ and have no player banking. The casino/business argument is that PGP banking and 3:2 BJ were not costing players enough but costing the casino too much - that these game parameters were not profitable enough for the casino.
Quote: RaleighCrapsI want to gamble. And I want to play in the way I have the best chance to win. So I bank in Pai Gow. But according to your definitions, I am a recreational gambler, therefore I can't care about HE. If I care about HE, then I am educated, and I don't gamble.
No, that were not my definitions, these are your beliefs about my beliefs. I want to clarify: I feel and take the point of view that 2.4% to 2.8% HE on a PGP game is utterly and 100% reasonable for the main bets, and less than 1.8% on a PGP game - especially with the delays and slow-downs that banking causes - are not reasonably profitable to the house, and I say that as a game designer who works for a casino table game manufacturer - which is a bizarre POV here at this board. But table games HAVE to cover about $12,000 a month for our customer operators to break even (more on the strip, and less off strip, and much less in a WA card room), and so have to drop $60,000 and hold 25% of it - just to neutralize debt and pay lights and salary and facilities. Nobody here understands this or can see this aspect of running a business, but we have to insure both worthwhile entertainment for that expense, and profit to the client from these products.
I know that I appear as if I came from Mars, as my POV is out-of-joint with even the slightest of AP points of view, but casinos have to cover lights and dealer salaries, (and if you read any threads here on dealer tipping, well)....
Quote: RaleightCrapsAgain, congrats on a great game and I am jealous of the income you are receiving now, and more importantly, what you will be getting in the future. I am surprised that other commissionless versions aren't violating your patent(s).
Thanks!!
and I agree with your view on this, (as we believe this is clearly the case), and am in the process of seeking resolution - hopefully in an agreeable, cooperative, and cordial fashion for a resolution in a "business solution" way first. Thanks again!
Quote: PaigowdanNo. Internal game reviews showed that 3:2 single-deck and PGP banking were less profitable/unprofitable than other floor games, so 6:5 single deck and banking-free PGP got them in line for the per sq. ft. requirements to be on the floor. Washington state card rooms of little overhead can offer loss leaders; I can't expect a strip property to do so, and I gamble off-strip. I mean, what are we going to say? "You took away 3:2 single deck and PGP banking, and we're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it any longer!" They'd say, "if you worked in our offices and saw the numbers and our bond debts, you'd do the same thing. play where you want." Movie theaters overcharge, Restaurants overcharge, everyone overcharges, but one can not really argue that if business doesn't drop off.
So how come the MGM Grand makes so much money? They have the best blackjack game on the strip (tied with other MGM properties) and they allow player banking in their PGP games.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSo how come the MGM Grand makes so much money? They have the best blackjack game on the strip (tied with other MGM properties) and they allow player banking in their PGP games.
They have a LOT of other tables, slot machines, operations, and are averaging way more than $5 a hand, etc. and so can offer better rules at higher betting amounts.
They run it as they see fit, and if it's good for the gamblers, all good!
Quote: ParadigmThe huge difference being that the majority of PGP players that play a version that allows them to bank, simply don't bank......so their edge and play are unaffected by playing a version that does not allow them the option to bank.
Every player playing a 6:5 BJ game is affected by the change in HE versus playing a 3:2 game.
This is the difference which makes the decision to play EZ PGP/ Comm. Free NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same decision to play 6:5 vs. 3:2 BJ for, dare I say, 90% of PGP players that don't opt to bank every other hand.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicePlayers play a lot of games poorly. When we talk about house edge, we usually assume optimal play. Most players never surrender, never split 9's, and never hit a 16, and always take even money, but we still quote the optimal house edge, not the edge from ploppies who don't know how to play.
The point is that you are in the minority of PGP players that care about banking, so removing it from PGP is simply not a big deal to the vast majority players. You may think it should be a big deal, but it isn't.
The same cannot be said for 6:5 BJ. Many more BJ players, as a percentage, will get up from a BJ table once they realize that BJ's pay 6:5 or simply not sit down when they see 6:5 on the felt. Your comparison of the "no banking rule" in PGP vs. 6:5 BJ is flawed.
But by all means, continue to argue your point with Dan. Claim that the 1.4% HE differential matters to players that never bank anyway and continue to call EZ PGP a crap game, etc.......but do cut him some slack if he doesn't always respond right away. He spends a lot of time going to the post office to pick up his royalty checks and making all those bank deposits takes time.
Quote: ParadigmThe point is that you are in the minority of PGP players that care about banking, so removing it from PGP is simply not a big deal to the vast majority players. You may think it should be a big deal, but it isn't.
The same cannot be said for 6:5 BJ. Many more BJ players, as a percentage, will get up from a BJ table once they realize that BJ's pay 6:5 or simply not sit down when they see 6:5 on the felt. Your comparison of the "no banking rule" in PGP vs. 6:5 BJ is flawed.
But by all means, continue to argue your point with Dan. Claim that the 1.4% HE differential matters to players that never bank anyway and continue to call EZ PGP a crap game, etc.......but do cut him some slack if he doesn't always respond right away. He spends a lot of time going to the post office to pick up his royalty checks and making all those bank deposits takes time.
My claim is that it is worth the same, so to me, they are equivalent. I make no claim about how other players perceive it. I would expect that most players don't notice, just like they don't notice whether a casino does or doesn't offer surrender in their blackjack games, but I haven't taken a poll.
